What The Heck?

[redprospector]

You have 2 choices, and 1 long shot hail mary.

1, get up and running first, sign contracts with buyers before they do, and do a better job at it than they can do.

2, dump all the stuff you have and get out...maybe sell them the stuff...

Hail Mary, force them to ditch the plans they have.

Of the three, I like #1 best.

As of right now I like #3 the best. We'll see what I think after the unscheduled meeting with my county commisioner tomorrow morning.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

I seem to recall quite a few threads on this site about Prison Blues jeans and very few qualms expressed about them competing with private industry.

Hard to know where the price and costs will settle out. Labor is free, never underestimate the ability of government agencies to kill efficiency but keep on trucking.

Prior to the state take over of jails here circa 1960, my county was the only one of the eight that consistently turned a profit and had its facilities rated as well maintained and adequate. Wasn't anything special other then generations of jailers who had run a tight ship and developed a culture of doing so. The other seven...not so much.

I'd guess the rest of you likewise have seen the well-run agencies that keep on ticking year in, year out...and the greater number that struggle to figure out how to turn on the lights each day.

Did do trail and conservation work one summer for the town, and most days I had an inmate helper or two. Weren't firecrackers, but I only had one I had to tell them to not send back because he was useless as a tit on a bull. Town also used a crew at the dump to sort recyclables. But even with the cash cost being minimal (I think they cost us $8/day) and a town that squeezes pennies (our tax rate is about 40% below average for the state)...we only did that for a few years then contracted out the recycling program to a private vendor who could do it for less.

Well, I guess that means that I'm not a hypocrite in that area, I don't & won't own a pair of "prison blues" I've never felt it was right for the government to compete with private industry.
Private industry (especially the little guy) has to make a profit, and do it now. Government on the other hand doesn't necessarily have to make a profit....ever, they can run on my tax dollars. How ironic, I'm paying them to put me out of business.

Here's something for everyone who thinks that it's ok for the government to compete with private industry. Just fill in the blanks with your location, and industry/job.
________ county/state will be buying the old ________ plant/office and have it up and running in a few months using prisoners for labor. The use of prisoners will theoretically lower the overhead enough to be able to provide this product/service cheaper than other options in the area.

Now imagine how you'll feel when you realize, or your boss tells you that trying to compete with this type of competition is not practical and that the doors to the plant/office will be closed perminantly in 30 days, and that if you want to stay in your field that you'll have to move or go to jail.
That's where me and the people who work with me stand right now. We may be just another statistic in the unemployment rate soon. But the prisoners will have jobs.
And all this time I thought that the government was supposed to be trying to help with the unemployment rate.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

As of right now I like #3 the best. We'll see what I think after the unscheduled meeting with my county commisioner tomorrow morning.

Andy

Just remember, hitting people doesn't make them any smarter. It's fun sometimes, and sometimes you just have to... but it's usually counter productive in the long run.

 

[redprospector]

Just remember, hitting people doesn't make them any smarter. It's fun sometimes, and sometimes you just have to... but it's usually counter productive in the long run.

Haha, Yeah but it may be the only way I'll get to keep cuttin' trees.
And I think it has made a few people a little smarter. One in particular thought it would be ok to emphasise his point by sticking his finger in my chest. He is now a little smarter, and knows better than to even think that.

Andy

 

[Jacob J.]

Hard to know where the price and costs will settle out. Labor is free, never underestimate the ability of government agencies to kill efficiency but keep on trucking.

Inmate labor is never free, as pointed out earlier in this thread. In fact, when you look at the amount of accomplishment vs. cost, it's some of the most expensive labor on the planet, even more so than most union labor.

 

[slowp]

Well, it works the other way too. When I started out, we could come to work earlier in the year and work later if we worked on a precommercial thinning crew. We did the spots that were out of the way or not real conveniant to contract out. It was a good way to get into shape for the upcoming timber marking season. Then orders came down that all that was to be contracted out. I've heard that it doesn't really make a difference in cost. When contracts are done, a lot of time $$ is spent getting the specs together and putting a contract together.

At one point, it was rumored that just about all work would be done by contractors. My job would have survived but many would be lost. There was suddenly a rush for folks to get qualified as CORs and inspectors, as those would be the only jobs. Then there was a mind change and I suppose all will be repeated again, just like the constant downsizing and reorganizations.

So, govt. workers also get the shaft once in a while. I guess it is part of life.

 

[redprospector]

Well, it works the other way too. When I started out, we could come to work earlier in the year and work later if we worked on a precommercial thinning crew. We did the spots that were out of the way or not real conveniant to contract out. It was a good way to get into shape for the upcoming timber marking season. Then orders came down that all that was to be contracted out. I've heard that it doesn't really make a difference in cost. When contracts are done, a lot of time $$ is spent getting the specs together and putting a contract together.

At one point, it was rumored that just about all work would be done by contractors. My job would have survived but many would be lost. There was suddenly a rush for folks to get qualified as CORs and inspectors, as those would be the only jobs. Then there was a mind change and I suppose all will be repeated again, just like the constant downsizing and reorganizations.

So, govt. workers also get the shaft once in a while. I guess it is part of life.

Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.
I think the shaft they're using on me is bigger than the one they use on government workers. But maybe that's just me.

Andy

 

[Jacob J.]

Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.
I think the shaft they're using on me is bigger than the one they use on government workers. But maybe that's just me.

Andy

That's the thing about working for the government- little risk and little reward.

 

[redprospector]

That's the thing about working for the government- little risk and little reward.

Yep, I'm looking back on some of the decisions I've made in the past, and one of those retirement plans, and benefits are lookin' pretty good right now.

Andy

 

[hammerlogging]

I think that with a can-do attitude you can turn this tide in your favor. Make this situation to your advantage. There is a role for you and gov't, prisoner labor. You are the expert in this field, not them. They probably haven't even considered your position, or even know you are out there. What about turning them on wholly unmerch. stands? Point is, keep your mind open, try and remain positive, and turn this in your favor.... you have to! Good luck.

 

[slowp]

Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.
I think the shaft they're using on me is bigger than the one they use on government workers. But maybe that's just me.

Andy

It all hurts. I've had to move to totally new to me parts of the country to keep working. None of it is easy.

 

[slowp]

Yep, I'm looking back on some of the decisions I've made in the past, and one of those retirement plans, and benefits are lookin' pretty good right now.

Andy

I've also had loggers question me about the retirement plans. When they heard how much I donated to my plan, and then about the health insurance-- that there was no dental, and that I paid half of my insurance, it didn't sound so good. I did have more taken out of my check than required--and it is now paying off. Part will depend on the stock market too.

Rumors abound.

 

[redprospector]

I think that with a can-do attitude you can turn this tide in your favor. Make this situation to your advantage. There is a role for you and gov't, prisoner labor. You are the expert in this field, not them. They probably haven't even considered your position, or even know you are out there. What about turning them on wholly unmerch. stands? Point is, keep your mind open, try and remain positive, and turn this in your favor.... you have to! Good luck.

After tomorrow they'll know I'm out here. I'm gonna introduce me.
No, really though, I'm just blowing off a little steam here. I'll handle myself in an intelligent manner, and try to make the best of what appears to be a bad situation.
I appreciate your encouragement.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

I've also had loggers question me about the retirement plans. When they heard how much I donated to my plan, and then about the health insurance-- that there was no dental, and that I paid half of my insurance, it didn't sound so good. I did have more taken out of my check than required--and it is now paying off. Part will depend on the stock market too.

Rumors abound.

Hahaha, I donate 100% to my retirement plan (what's left of it). I also pay 100% of my health insurance, and my general liability insurance, and my inland marine, etc. etc. etc. I've seen times when I've had to sacrafice my retirement contribution, and my health insurance to be able to pay the help, and try to keep the other stuff up.
I don't want to compare to see who's got it worse anymore, it may make me more negative, and I don't like being negative.
I do what I do because I love it. I am my own boss because no one will let me work for them. Wait, that wasn't right. I am my own boss because I like the "risk & reward", because I like being paid for what I can do rather than an hourly or monthly wage, because the better I can pull my crew together and lead them, the more prosperous I become.
There are few people in this world who have it as good as I do, and I know it. I just really don't like what's going on right now. Hopefully it's just a little speed bump.

Andy

 

[slowp]

It's just that the constant bashing gets old, along with the fantasizing of all the benefits. I realize I had it easier but it wasn't a cake walk. Nothing is.

 

[redprospector]

It's just that the constant bashing gets old, along with the fantasizing of all the benefits. I realize I had it easier but it wasn't a cake walk. Nothing is.

Sorry, I did not intend to bash you. I understand that the US Forest Service is charged with keeping our forests. I also understand that it is economicly unfeasable for them to do it alone, therefore creating the need for contractors, etc. etc. etc.
In this instance, when I referred to the government I was reffering to my county government, who was not charged with the keeping of our forests, or creating businesses to compete with private industries.
I consider you a friend on this site (I hope that's ok), and would just keep my mouth shut before I would intentionally "bash" you.

Andy

 

[2dogs]

Here in Cali we have a huge prison population and inmate and ward crews are much sought after. The inmates are uneducated and very poor communicators but as a rule they work really hard and do a good, no, a great job. (The California Conservation Crews are employees, IIRC for a maximum of 3 years, but do less demanding work.) I have had only good experiences working with inmate crews but I have been trained on how to work with them. (Though the first time I worked with inmates in 1987 I had no training).

Then company I work for lost a job to an inmate crew. It was a brush clearing and fire prevention job that we could have easily done but we could not beat the price the crew charged. The school district was very happy with the job the inmate crew did. BTW part of the reason the job was bid out was because of the protesters complaining about goats being used the prior year. They said the goats were treated unfairly and had their rights denied. The school board bought it. Hippies everywhere.

I have worked fires and other incidents where inmate crews and private crews were working and inmates win hands down. Still I understand how it feels to be under cut and be up against unfair situation. i also know you can get called in to bid a job just so the agency can see the bid the call off the bidding then use your bid to write another request for for bidding using your bid as the requirements. Good luck.

 

[northmanlogging]

All of this is just one more reason I'm not looking for gub-a-mint contracts, I'll stick to the private side, and with a little luck maybe a contract sale with a mill or two, sub contract with a larger outfit... anything to keep me from paying the 20% on a million dollar bond...

 

[ropensaddle]

Sorry, I did not intend to bash you. I understand that the US Forest Service is charged with keeping our forests. I also understand that it is economicly unfeasable for them to do it alone, therefore creating the need for contractors, etc. etc. etc.
In this instance, when I referred to the government I was reffering to my county government, who was not charged with the keeping of our forests, or creating businesses to compete with private industries.
I consider you a friend on this site (I hope that's ok), and would just keep my mouth shut before I would intentionally "bash" you.

Andy

Here they been using illegal aliens somehow made legal

 

[2dogs]

Here they been using illegal aliens somehow made legal

Funny how that happens........................... Not really.