What to do about persistent poachers?

[ElevatorGuy]

Claymores and bear traps sound like a great way to slow it down.

 

[2lumbarleft]

Hi there,
Bought 440 acres of farm (fallow for 75 years and needs tons of rehab) and forest in the Adirondack park, NY and moved my family up here 4 years ago. I don’t hunt. Every year during deer hunting season the neighbor clan and their friends take to poaching my property. Put up camera? They steal it. Posted signs? Torn down. Night (spotlighting) hunting, shooting from the road on thanksgiving; check. Rutting up my field picking up a buck they poached; check. Allow others to hunt, hasn’t changed anything.

Well, I found one of their cameras on my land with some of the usual suspects’ faces on it from where they set it up beginning of November. Turned it in. Filed charges. Then Wednesday before thanksgiving my “dog of a lifetime” defends my chickens against a fox with two others, running the fox into the woods… and I hear a close gunshot. Only two of my dogs return. Have not turned up a body despite extensive searching in an organized pattern across the property with help of my remaining dogs. Nothing. Posted fliers, took out google and Facebook ads, went door to door in a 30 mile radius without a sign or a single lead. So realistically shot by a poacher on my land.
Then this morning I hear another shot on my property with fresh snow down. Track it to offending family next door with tracks walking past my no trespassing sign onto my property and shooting a coyote, and then proceeding deeper into my land….

So what to do? I’m sure some of you have dealt with stuff like this before. I’m upset, non violent, and mainly sad about this dog that was truly my best friend, and would appreciate thoughts on how to solve this.

I am truly sorry to hear about what is going on with your property and especially with the loss of your dog. Dealing with these problems legally is very frustrating, time consuming, expensive, and difficult. A truly evil man (who I will not honor by saying his name) once stated that the only way to defeat terrorism is with equal or greater terrorism. You are obviously a much better man than I, because I would probably already be in jail if someone killed my dog, but that is exactly the wrong way to respond. These things need to be carefully thought out. I could have tolerated the barn, but not the dog. Some say when you seek revenge, you should dig two graves. One for your victim and one for yourself. However, others say "Revenge is a Dish Best Served Cold." If law enforcement steadily ramps up the heat on your poacher clan, expect more retaliation and prepare to defend against it. I have known this type of people before. When you walk your land, carry your fast handling scout rifle and keep your eyes open. These are the kind of people who might snipe you or block you on a dirt road. Living defensively robs you of freedom. Your response to all of this depends upon your personal skills. Most aren't up to it. Know your limitations and dont start what you can't finish. Good luck.

 

[The Nor Way]

It was surveyed prior to logging of the neighbor’s lands and there are pins in the ground from that, but I will have that boundary surveyed again to make sure that one was accurate.

So let me get this straight, they logged their land and now they hunt yours? PEOPLE

 

[SimonHS]

they logged their land

There may lie a non-violent solution. Log your land. If that makes it unattractive to deer then there will be nothing to hunt, so no reason for them to trespass. And you would make some money too.

 

[Superduty71]

@Kdawg
First - I'm truly sorry about your dog... They are luck you are a much better (or level headed) person than many, I know if it was one of ours, my wife would probably beat me to their front door fully locked & loaded... & I would be digging holes. You are going about this the right way... it sound like an amazing place you have & legally doing this although expensive & timely, is the right way.

We have dealt with trespassers / poachers on our small lot after we first purchased it... so some thought's:

I have posted the property but the next day or week the signs are down. Probably going to paint perimeter trunks plus post signs next. The reason the guy who shot the coyote on my land did not get cited this time, or last time, was that, according to the conservation officer, who responded to the scene was the property line didn’t have “enough” posted signs. Even though the tracks onto my property could be clearly seen passing within 3 feet of a sign they hadn’t torn down yet. Amazing. Thanks for your insights. Much appreciated.

If you decided to paint the trunks on the perimeter, just know you are doing it for your own sake. NY does not have the Purple Paint Law & it will not be seen as a legal way of making your property by any enforcing agency. They may see it & even agree with you but it is still not currently a legal posting of the property in NY. (CT either)...

The other issue with this is you need to know the laws when you call the authorities, do not rely on them to know all the laws governing the land, especially if they are not from the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation (which is who I would recommend contacting besides the local authorities).

From the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation website:

Trespassing
Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property. Instead of posting, a landowner or other authorized person may issue written notice to another individual informing them that they are prohibited from entering the property. The notice must contain a description of the property, what restrictions apply (hunting, fishing, trapping) and the person or persons prohibited from entry. It should be delivered by certified mail or other processes (ex: legal notice in newspaper) to prove that the person was served. At any time, anyone by the landowner, occupant, or other authorized person to leave the premises (posted or not), must do so immediately.

Trespassing on areas posted against trespass pursuant to the Environmental Conservation Law is punishable by a fine up to $250 and/or up to 15 days in jail.


So, Legally you do not even have to post your land in NY... That said, I would post it, but again Legally... From the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation website: (definitely read this site & use it resources)

"Signs must be a minimum of 11 inches by 11 inches. They also must bear the name and address of the owner, lawful occupant or other person or organization authorized to post the area. The sign must bear a conspicuous statement which shall either consist of the word "POSTED" or warn against entry for specified purposes or all purposes without the consent of the person whose name appears on the sign. These words must cover a minimum space of 80 square inches (about 9 by 9 inches) of the sign.

At least one sign must be set on each side of the protected area and on each side of all corners that can be reasonably identified. Signs shall be no more than 660 feet apart, set close to or along the boundaries of the protected area. The signs must be conspicuous - they should be high enough, and spaced closely enough to be seen. Illegible or missing signs must be replaced at least once a year."

For it to be LEAGALLY posted those are the signs you should use... I know we have similar ridiculous requirements in CT....

When you post these signs take pictures with time & date stamps & if possible put a Number on each sign to identify its location & if possible waypoint each one on a GPS as you go (i.e. Northside corner LAT/LONG & keep this info logged). Try to number them chronologically as you put then up so you can easily identify if one is missing.

Sorry for the long post.... (I'm really just getting started...)

 

[Superduty71]

@Kdawg

I will send a cease and desist demand Along with a specific legal notice against trespassing to each of them in the coming week.

I took to hanging the no trespassing signs high enough in the trees that they’d need a ladder to snag them, which prompted the criticism from the game warden that they were too high. SMH. Yes the game cameras will be hung high and well camouflaged from now on.

I agree with this thought & meant to comment above: Along with posting the property just make sure you follow the requirements for such notification, as outline by the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation website:

"Instead of posting, a landowner or other authorized person may issue written notice to another individual informing them that they are prohibited from entering the property. The notice must contain a description of the property, what restrictions apply (hunting, fishing, trapping) and the person or persons prohibited from entry. It should be delivered by certified mail or other processes (ex: legal notice in newspaper) to prove that the person was served."

I might look into having a lawyer draft & send the letter (no he said / she said). & it also send a message that you are taking your "Land Management" seriously. I would get the lawyer opinion but might have the letter also CC'ed to the local authorities & the Local Environmental Conservation Office / Officer to keep on record naming the person / persons.

On Camera's: I know Spypoint were mentioned, which I have but they are trail cams with cellular. If you want to look at this more from a trespassing / security view point you might want to look at Vosker... They use Spypoint tech but are geared more towards security & remote monitoring, they have they have armored lock boxes for the cameras & the plans are month to month so you activate & deactivate based on your needs. The two of the biggest feature IMO is #1 they have an A.I tools built-in that helps you get the photos you need by identifying human or vehicle activity in the monitored area & send it to you via the app, this save on getting alerts on every animal that walking by or tree moving.... #2 If they take the camera you can mark it as missing in the app & if it is on / or if they power it back up it will log it GPS location & send it to you.

I have Vosker cams & can go into more details PM me if you want. (oh we also shot drone footage of or signage & cameras just to have video footage that we were posted)

 

[The Nor Way]

There may lie a non-violent solution. Log your land. If that makes it unattractive to deer then there will be nothing to hunt, so no reason for them to trespass. And you would make some money too.

I for one wouldn't ever make enough money to get rid of my woods!!!!!(not that they're worth much for wood anyway, but to me they are worth alot!!!)

 

[TRTermite]

TOTAL HUMOR so take it as such.
A friend of mine Once told me to buy a 12 pack of beer, invite 11 unruly drinkers from the bar to a party conveniently (Strategically)located near your point of conflict. Every one will get one beer but 10 of them will fight over the 12th one,,, Now use your imagination.
I don't know how I would handle losing one of my DOGs but I would let a lot of the locals know the mentality of your neighbors, Shock and/or sympathy from the community couldn't hurt you.
Then arrange for a copy of "In Broad Day Light" show up for their enlightenment. It is about a jerk in Skidmore, Missouri. (He Died and no ne saw a Thing)
The decisions are yours but there is a LOT of good advice from everyone - EXCEPT ME.
GOOD LUCK

 

[Kdawg]

So let me get this straight, they logged their land and now they hunt yours? PEOPLE

Correct

 

[Del_]

So let me get this straight, they logged their land and now they hunt yours? PEOPLE

There is much more for deer to browse on logged land than there is in the woods.

It's counter intuitive, but true.

 

[SS396driver]

It sucks having trespassers on your property I deal with it every year but my situation is different as I am in the NYC watershed and the NYC DEP police dont take kindly to trespass. I've had NYS DEP Catskill park police sherriff and state police here ,sometimes a combination of . Never had repeat offenders as most times it's just guys who think they are still on state land .

 

[capetrees]

Maybe, with 400 acres, you could subdivide a small area right along the line where the poachers trespass and put up pricey condos for the city fellas to inhabit. Their hunting land is gone, the new neighbors won't take kindly to hunters with guns on their property and you make money.

 

[capetrees]

There is much more for deer to browse on logged land than there is in the woods.

It's counter intuitive, but true.

or maybe you could set del-inquent up with a set of antlers and a tan jumpsuit and let the neighbor have at it. It won't stop them from poaching but the P&R forum will be happy for sure.

 

[Kdawg]

I for one wouldn't ever make enough money to get rid of my woods!!!!!(not that they're worth much for wood anyway, but to me they are worth alot!!!)

It’s a good point that deer like the cover of woods more than timbered. To me there is not enough quality wood standing there to make it worth timbering and the scorched earth approach isn’t one I’m willing to take. My family like to take rides on horseback and or hike through the woods also. So someone else can timber it when I’m gone.

 

[Kdawg]

Maybe, with 400 acres, you could subdivide a small area right along the line where the poachers trespass and put up pricey condos for the city fellas to inhabit. Their hunting land is gone, the new neighbors won't take kindly to hunters with guns on their property and you make money.

Ha! Nice one. Problem is they are all over me. I wouldn’t know where to start.

 

[Kdawg]

or maybe you could set del-inquent up with a set of antlers and a tan jumpsuit and let the neighbor have at it. It won't stop them from poaching but the P&R forum will be happy for sure.

I was taught “Logged for browsing and forest for cover.” And sounds like you confirm that. The deer have 80 or 100 acres of pasture/ hay meadow they can graze that is planted with yummy clover etc. they want nothing to do with browsing some bombed out looking logged property. Also, the deer quickly change their patterns of movement to bedding down pretty strict when they start hearing shots of guys siting in their guns… so this time of year there is a hoard of deer at night on the pasture and bedded down in my woods at night.

Yes yes, instead of tarred and feathered a deer jump suit. Could get interesting and entertaining. Ha!

 

[Kdawg]

@Kdawg


I agree with this thought & meant to comment above: Along with posting the property just make sure you follow the requirements for such notification, as outline by the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation website:

"Instead of posting, a landowner or other authorized person may issue written notice to another individual informing them that they are prohibited from entering the property. The notice must contain a description of the property, what restrictions apply (hunting, fishing, trapping) and the person or persons prohibited from entry. It should be delivered by certified mail or other processes (ex: legal notice in newspaper) to prove that the person was served."

I might look into having a lawyer draft & send the letter (no he said / she said). & it also send a message that you are taking your "Land Management" seriously. I would get the lawyer opinion but might have the letter also CC'ed to the local authorities & the Local Environmental Conservation Office / Officer to keep on record naming the person / persons.

On Camera's: I know Spypoint were mentioned, which I have but they are trail cams with cellular. If you want to look at this more from a trespassing / security view point you might want to look at Vosker... They use Spypoint tech but are geared more towards security & remote monitoring, they have they have armored lock boxes for the cameras & the plans are month to month so you activate & deactivate based on your needs. The two of the biggest feature IMO is #1 they have an A.I tools built-in that helps you get the photos you need by identifying human or vehicle activity in the monitored area & send it to you via the app, this save on getting alerts on every animal that walking by or tree moving.... #2 If they take the camera you can mark it as missing in the app & if it is on / or if they power it back up it will log it GPS location & send it to you.

I have Vosker cams & can go into more details PM me if you want. (oh we also shot drone footage of or signage & cameras just to have video footage that we were posted)

lawyer to draft notice and or to post in the newspaper. On the to do list

Some
excellent tips for me to research more on. I’ll be in touch as I learn more and have questions with your experience on the cameras. Thanks!

I like the drone footage of the signage move. Proves it was posted without setting foot on their land… on it.

also maybe a bounty for anyone who collects sufficient proof of trespassing that results in a ticket…

 

[Kdawg]

@Kdawg
First - I'm truly sorry about your dog... They are luck you are a much better (or level headed) person than many, I know if it was one of ours, my wife would probably beat me to their front door fully locked & loaded... & I would be digging holes. You are going about this the right way... it sound like an amazing place you have & legally doing this although expensive & timely, is the right way.

We have dealt with trespassers / poachers on our small lot after we first purchased it... so some thought's:

If you decided to paint the trunks on the perimeter, just know you are doing it for your own sake. NY does not have the Purple Paint Law & it will not be seen as a legal way of making your property by any enforcing agency. They may see it & even agree with you but it is still not currently a legal posting of the property in NY. (CT either)...

The other issue with this is you need to know the laws when you call the authorities, do not rely on them to know all the laws governing the land, especially if they are not from the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation (which is who I would recommend contacting besides the local authorities).

From the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation website:

Trespassing
Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property. Instead of posting, a landowner or other authorized person may issue written notice to another individual informing them that they are prohibited from entering the property. The notice must contain a description of the property, what restrictions apply (hunting, fishing, trapping) and the person or persons prohibited from entry. It should be delivered by certified mail or other processes (ex: legal notice in newspaper) to prove that the person was served. At any time, anyone by the landowner, occupant, or other authorized person to leave the premises (posted or not), must do so immediately.

Trespassing on areas posted against trespass pursuant to the Environmental Conservation Law is punishable by a fine up to $250 and/or up to 15 days in jail.


So, Legally you do not even have to post your land in NY... That said, I would post it, but again Legally... From the NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation website: (definitely read this site & use it resources)

"Signs must be a minimum of 11 inches by 11 inches. They also must bear the name and address of the owner, lawful occupant or other person or organization authorized to post the area. The sign must bear a conspicuous statement which shall either consist of the word "POSTED" or warn against entry for specified purposes or all purposes without the consent of the person whose name appears on the sign. These words must cover a minimum space of 80 square inches (about 9 by 9 inches) of the sign.

At least one sign must be set on each side of the protected area and on each side of all corners that can be reasonably identified. Signs shall be no more than 660 feet apart, set close to or along the boundaries of the protected area. The signs must be conspicuous - they should be high enough, and spaced closely enough to be seen. Illegible or missing signs must be replaced at least once a year."

For it to be LEAGALLY posted those are the signs you should use... I know we have similar ridiculous requirements in CT....

When you post these signs take pictures with time & date stamps & if possible put a Number on each sign to identify its location & if possible waypoint each one on a GPS as you go (i.e. Northside corner LAT/LONG & keep this info logged). Try to number them chronologically as you put then up so you can easily identify if one is missing.

Sorry for the long post.... (I'm really just getting started...)

An excellent post and I appreciate the sympathies for my family’s dog as well as the time And effort to thoroughly reply.
I have been reading the pages you reference and there are certainly some aspects I can tighten up and go redundant on in terms of establishing the boundary
Also will look at case law and ask relevant questions of specific attorneys specializing in these sort of disputes.

looks like I have some letters to write to state politicians (with campaign donations included) to re-examine the purple paint rule and consider its passage. Perhaps some additional measures to strengthen landowner protections from poachers.

in the end, poaching and trespassing is one thing; but killing a member of my family during the poaching is a sure fire way to awaken an otherwise mostly disinterested landowner and focus an unusual amount of time and resources to the situation.

thanks so much for your help!

 

[Kdawg]

I am truly sorry to hear about what is going on with your property and especially with the loss of your dog. Dealing with these problems legally is very frustrating, time consuming, expensive, and difficult. A truly evil man (who I will not honor by saying his name) once stated that the only way to defeat terrorism is with equal or greater terrorism. You are obviously a much better man than I, because I would probably already be in jail if someone killed my dog, but that is exactly the wrong way to respond. These things need to be carefully thought out. I could have tolerated the barn, but not the dog. Some say when you seek revenge, you should dig two graves. One for your victim and one for yourself. However, others say "Revenge is a Dish Best Served Cold." If law enforcement steadily ramps up the heat on your poacher clan, expect more retaliation and prepare to defend against it. I have known this type of people before. When you walk your land, carry your fast handling scout rifle and keep your eyes open. These are the kind of people who might snipe you or block you on a dirt road. Living defensively robs you of freedom. Your response to all of this depends upon your personal skills. Most aren't up to it. Know your limitations and dont start what you can't finish. Good luck.

I think you have some good points. excellent pints! Thanks. I was walking on the side of the road today and one of them drove past me “a little close” filmed it, documented it, and filed it away to present at a later date to show a pattern of harassment. Didn’t say anything. I’m not going to cower but am being even more careful. Quietly egally armed? You bet. Practiced with what I carry. Oh yes, and not publicly. I like to be underestimated. I was bullied as a kid extensively and don’t stand for it anywhere around me or to me but will use the legal system exclusively as that’s its purpose. We aren’t supposed to duel in the streets anymore…

so yes, somewhat prepared and adding layers in anticipation of rash retaliation moves on their part in the future. The “finishing” what they started in shooting my dog while poaching is a super long game for me. Death by a thousand legal notice paper cuts if need be.

I’ll post updates as I make my moves and they make theirs. Perhaps that will be helpful in the future for someone else as the advice in this thread has been helpful to me.
thanks for your help so far!

 

[longrange]

Ive got a couple hundred "warning live mines" signs. We pulled the trick off perfect at my brothers farm. After the fourth time dealing with these idiots, I posted the signs along the back of the property where they were sneaking in. Set 5 lbs of tannerite 150 yds in a semi open spot. Rigged with a cap and 300 yds of wire. Piece of plywood cut and painted to look like a deer. Just a spring so the head would pop up a second. Then we took turns waiting. I was headed to relieve him after the first 2 hrs. I was about 10 yrds from him when they crossed the line. The head popped, the tannerite went off a quarter second after. They froze for 15 min, then slowly started backing out. Next morning the sheriff came out. I had boxed all the signs. He said someone reported mines exploding on my property. After telling me it was one of the poachers, he asked what we did to scare them so bad. When I told him what we did, he just laughed and said **** them. They cause him more problems than everyone combined out here.
.