What You Should Do If You Get Hurt in the Woods When Alone
- Thread starter Gypo Logger
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Nemus Talea
ArboristSite Operative
Good info here. I'll be updating first aid pouch on my wedge belt.
Whistles: When I'm not wearing spenders or they're covered, I girth hitch my whistles' daisychained lanyard through a high button hole on my shirt or coat. Whistle hangs down into front pocket and stays out of the way. Even if hands are just bloody stumps, can still get behind lanyard and run whistle to mouth.
Whistles: When I'm not wearing spenders or they're covered, I girth hitch my whistles' daisychained lanyard through a high button hole on my shirt or coat. Whistle hangs down into front pocket and stays out of the way. Even if hands are just bloody stumps, can still get behind lanyard and run whistle to mouth.
isaaccarlson
Addicted to ArboristSite
I will always stop to help someone. This is not something I am willing to stop doing. I don't care if I get sued, it is the right thing to do. I was trained in emergency response and wilderness survival a number of years ago and even taught classes to others. I don't carry and certification anymore, but I sure can help someone if they are hurt.
Up here in Canada all we need to hear from the victim is ,yes help me, even if it is barely perceptible.This will preclude us from any lawsuit or wrongdoing suit brought afterwards.
Last time I was in a cpr/first aid class, we where told if they where awake to ask for permission, if not help anyways. There are laws on the books here preventing us from being sued for helping someone if they give permission or if they where unable to give permission, called the good samaratin act (sp?).
4x4American
Got Sawdust?
Not sure ifen I mentioned this or not, but one time, I got hit by a flying black birch log, thankfully it wasn't all the big, but it threw me through the air and almost hit me again. It was one of them deals where it was on a steep hill and there's boulders all over and it hit a boulder that was in the right spot at the right time and the birch log turned into a see-saw and I didn't really get far enough away..anyways...I got this crazy adrenaline rush from it, to the point where I was shaking and couldn't see clearly, I checked myself to make sure I still had my arms and legs and nothing major was wrong...turned out I was fine...but I called it quits for the day. It took me an hour for the shaking to stop.
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
After 33 years of making my living in the woods, except for a few short stints at gold mining, Ive had 9 lost time injuries. In that time Ive had lots of time to ponder the real cause of injuries/ fatalities.
Other than the obvious cause, such as inexperience, has anyone stopped to consider the emotional and mental state of the victim? Lets say we go to work with marital, family or financial problems weighing heavily on our minds, we just wont be there 100 percent and therefore a danger to ourselves.
In my history of injuries, at least 60% were when I was thinking about external negative forces. Just as an analogy, it is far safer to work happily drunk than it is to work with fret and worry.
While we work, many thoughts enter our minds, let them be happy thoughts and purge the negative ones. Not that we need to be shrinks, but maybe team leaders should talk about this sort of thing at the start of every work day and look for the danger signs between the ears.
Stay safe and fly right
Other than the obvious cause, such as inexperience, has anyone stopped to consider the emotional and mental state of the victim? Lets say we go to work with marital, family or financial problems weighing heavily on our minds, we just wont be there 100 percent and therefore a danger to ourselves.
In my history of injuries, at least 60% were when I was thinking about external negative forces. Just as an analogy, it is far safer to work happily drunk than it is to work with fret and worry.
While we work, many thoughts enter our minds, let them be happy thoughts and purge the negative ones. Not that we need to be shrinks, but maybe team leaders should talk about this sort of thing at the start of every work day and look for the danger signs between the ears.
Stay safe and fly right
windthrown
361 Junkie
Well, several things to comment on here. Note that I am a trained first responder with the Mt Hood and National Ski Patrol and I have an OEC (Outdoor Emergency Care) card which is similar to EMT level II, and a medical CPR card. I have a lot of search and rescue training and experience, and I have dealt with a lot of actual first responder medical cases on and off the mountain.
The first comment is about thinking positive, negative, or otherwise. One problem with the happy thought theory is that I see a lot of cases with drunk or stoned people. Being drunk and stoned may make you feel good, but it greatly impairs your judgment. You are far better off being sober and pissed off in my experience. Save the beers and splifs for the end of the day, people. The other issue with the happy theory is that good feelings can be just as distracting as bad. The issue is to focus on what you are doing, not on other thoughts, good bad or otherwise.
The thing that we are trained on all the time in snow avalanche awareness is that people do things against their better judgment due to false confidence and well being. In almost all human triggered snow avalanche events, people thought it was safe to do very dangerous things. They saw someone else doing something, so they thought it is a good idea and safe to follow. Or they ignored the warnings. Even the most over-educated avalanche expert in the world was killed by an avalanche that he triggered in the outback in Colorado. It was a perfect day with perfect snow and he nearly killed the 3 other people with him. Its an enigma, and one that we train on over and over again. In other words, the days where everything seems to be going perfect are the ones where things can and do go terribly wrong. Happy conditions can lead to tragedy as they are just as distracting as negative ones. I have done it myself, falling trees in a series of perfect falls, and then one snags, spins or barbers, and bang, things go to shyte all of a sudden. Or up on the mountain opening a lift on a perfect morning, feeling great, and I hit a sheet of ice, I spun, and the next thing I remember is waking up in the back of an ambulance with a concussion.
The first comment is about thinking positive, negative, or otherwise. One problem with the happy thought theory is that I see a lot of cases with drunk or stoned people. Being drunk and stoned may make you feel good, but it greatly impairs your judgment. You are far better off being sober and pissed off in my experience. Save the beers and splifs for the end of the day, people. The other issue with the happy theory is that good feelings can be just as distracting as bad. The issue is to focus on what you are doing, not on other thoughts, good bad or otherwise.
The thing that we are trained on all the time in snow avalanche awareness is that people do things against their better judgment due to false confidence and well being. In almost all human triggered snow avalanche events, people thought it was safe to do very dangerous things. They saw someone else doing something, so they thought it is a good idea and safe to follow. Or they ignored the warnings. Even the most over-educated avalanche expert in the world was killed by an avalanche that he triggered in the outback in Colorado. It was a perfect day with perfect snow and he nearly killed the 3 other people with him. Its an enigma, and one that we train on over and over again. In other words, the days where everything seems to be going perfect are the ones where things can and do go terribly wrong. Happy conditions can lead to tragedy as they are just as distracting as negative ones. I have done it myself, falling trees in a series of perfect falls, and then one snags, spins or barbers, and bang, things go to shyte all of a sudden. Or up on the mountain opening a lift on a perfect morning, feeling great, and I hit a sheet of ice, I spun, and the next thing I remember is waking up in the back of an ambulance with a concussion.
windthrown
361 Junkie
Some other points I will address here from my perspective and experience...
I would not advise the use of a tourniquet unless it is the absolute last/only resort. They have not been used in our medical response protocol for many years now. They are likely to cause far more damage than good, and may lead to the loss of a limb. In cases of severed limbs and severe bleeding, stop the bleeding with whatever you have. Kotex are great, I carry many. If the bleeding does not stop, add more bandages. If it still does not stop, add more bandages. We do not use the gel blood coagulants on the MHSP for several reasons, but we train with it and it may help in severe bleeding situations. I would advise that you make your own first aid packs. I have several, and if anyone wants to know what I carry and why, I can list them here.
If you live in the PNW I would advise that you get LifeFlight or similar air rescue insurance. It is about $60 a year and will cover all costs of an air lift rescue for you and your family in all or parts of the states of OR, WA, ID, MT, NV, WY and CA. A typical Lifeflight rescue from Mt Hood to any of the hospitals in Portland, OR will cost you at least $30,000, and it is NOT covered by 90% of medical insurance plans, including Obamacare. In cases where life or limb is in peril, I call LifeFlight, regardless. Its protocol. Here is the LifeFlight Network web page: http://lifeflight.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=182
As for law suits from rendering first aid, it completely depends on the state (and country) that you are in. In Oregon there are strong Good Sam laws and we first responders are protected from legal suits for rendering first aid, but only as non-paid volunteers and only when we follow protocol. Also that still does not stop people from filing lawsuits. Sometimes the first thing out of people's mouths when they have been rescued or helped is that they are going to sue! We always ask people if they want to be helped, and if they decline, we ask that they sign a waiver. If they are unable to respond, we must assume that they would want first aid.
CPR varies every time I renew my card. I have a Medical 2 person CPR card, which uses several methods of CPR, including the use of a defibulator. My latest CPR course advised more rapid chest compressions than previously, and gives a lower priority to rescue breaths. It always changes. Triage protocol also varies every time I take training in it. Triage does not always mean a mass casualty incident. It can be a tree falling incident with 2 guys and only one responder. You then have to decide what to do in what order. I have done a lot of triage scenarios, (some real ones) and every time I feel like I have failed miserably. You always miss and overlook something, and you simply cannot herd cats.
I would not advise the use of a tourniquet unless it is the absolute last/only resort. They have not been used in our medical response protocol for many years now. They are likely to cause far more damage than good, and may lead to the loss of a limb. In cases of severed limbs and severe bleeding, stop the bleeding with whatever you have. Kotex are great, I carry many. If the bleeding does not stop, add more bandages. If it still does not stop, add more bandages. We do not use the gel blood coagulants on the MHSP for several reasons, but we train with it and it may help in severe bleeding situations. I would advise that you make your own first aid packs. I have several, and if anyone wants to know what I carry and why, I can list them here.
If you live in the PNW I would advise that you get LifeFlight or similar air rescue insurance. It is about $60 a year and will cover all costs of an air lift rescue for you and your family in all or parts of the states of OR, WA, ID, MT, NV, WY and CA. A typical Lifeflight rescue from Mt Hood to any of the hospitals in Portland, OR will cost you at least $30,000, and it is NOT covered by 90% of medical insurance plans, including Obamacare. In cases where life or limb is in peril, I call LifeFlight, regardless. Its protocol. Here is the LifeFlight Network web page: http://lifeflight.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=182
As for law suits from rendering first aid, it completely depends on the state (and country) that you are in. In Oregon there are strong Good Sam laws and we first responders are protected from legal suits for rendering first aid, but only as non-paid volunteers and only when we follow protocol. Also that still does not stop people from filing lawsuits. Sometimes the first thing out of people's mouths when they have been rescued or helped is that they are going to sue! We always ask people if they want to be helped, and if they decline, we ask that they sign a waiver. If they are unable to respond, we must assume that they would want first aid.
CPR varies every time I renew my card. I have a Medical 2 person CPR card, which uses several methods of CPR, including the use of a defibulator. My latest CPR course advised more rapid chest compressions than previously, and gives a lower priority to rescue breaths. It always changes. Triage protocol also varies every time I take training in it. Triage does not always mean a mass casualty incident. It can be a tree falling incident with 2 guys and only one responder. You then have to decide what to do in what order. I have done a lot of triage scenarios, (some real ones) and every time I feel like I have failed miserably. You always miss and overlook something, and you simply cannot herd cats.
That's crap. Fret and worry are part of life. Keep your mind on what you're doing. If you're not mentally strong enough to do that maybe you ought to get a job in town.
If a guy shows up drunk, even happily drunk, he doesn't work. Period.
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
Great advice Windthrown. Bob you are right on. That is total ******** about being drunk or high. I remember a few years ago some guy on here talking about how he doesn't run a saw when he is tired, or mad, or sad, or constipated, or hungry, or etc, etc... I called him out on that. He also said he runs at only WOT. Yeah ok. Move it along.
MEdooGuide
ArboristSite Member
Guys, I train first aid/cpr for the logging industry. I take a lot of time to talk about rural response and what to do when hours from help. Couple of key points to make:
If the guy is responsive you need permission to help. Unresponsive and consent is implied. Depending on state laws you're protected by the good Samaritans act which means as long as you act WITHIN your training, you should be protected by lawsuit... aka don't try to start a traceotomy on him.
Widow makers will almost always result in a neck injury which drastically increases the potential for paralysis, avoid moving at all costs. If you are forced too, reduce the chances of a neck injury by eliminating movement of his neck.
If you cut an artery you have about 2 min max to get help. Remember your arteries are like an elastic and when they are snipped off the retract into your body. Your best chance to stop the bleeding is not at the wound but further away.
Don't wait until it all hits the fans... plan a little bit and when an accident occurs it will go smoother. Take an additional step to make sure you can land a helicopter. Carry your epi pen if you are supposed to have one, same with your inhaler. Know how to tell someone where you are when you call for an ambulance and have communication with the outside world.
Finally, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... wear your PPE, I don't care how long you have run a saw, if you cut an artery you bleed out just as quick as the rest of us and it is really hard to impossible to stop that type of bleeding.
If the guy is responsive you need permission to help. Unresponsive and consent is implied. Depending on state laws you're protected by the good Samaritans act which means as long as you act WITHIN your training, you should be protected by lawsuit... aka don't try to start a traceotomy on him.
Widow makers will almost always result in a neck injury which drastically increases the potential for paralysis, avoid moving at all costs. If you are forced too, reduce the chances of a neck injury by eliminating movement of his neck.
If you cut an artery you have about 2 min max to get help. Remember your arteries are like an elastic and when they are snipped off the retract into your body. Your best chance to stop the bleeding is not at the wound but further away.
Don't wait until it all hits the fans... plan a little bit and when an accident occurs it will go smoother. Take an additional step to make sure you can land a helicopter. Carry your epi pen if you are supposed to have one, same with your inhaler. Know how to tell someone where you are when you call for an ambulance and have communication with the outside world.
Finally, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... wear your PPE, I don't care how long you have run a saw, if you cut an artery you bleed out just as quick as the rest of us and it is really hard to impossible to stop that type of bleeding.
Pulp
ArboristSite Member
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Here goes from a virgin lurker.
Except for windthrown, MEdoo, and a couple of you WITH emergency/mil experience and training, most of these comments are big time BS.
First off: forget the lawyer slease--you see someone in need, get off your a$$ and do it. Never ASK if someone is bleeding out, unconscious, or not breathing, or in need.
Second: Get off your a$$ II-- is go out and get trained. No biggie. There's plenty of programs to show how to save a life or your own.
Third: Who the %$#&@ always has a 'partner' or cronies around when they're working woods ?
Fourth: Look at "blowout kit" contents. Training, duct tape, and ole time kotex ( find full sized blood pads at your local ER. The latest "tampons" are a joke).
Sure you can get any kind of high end emergency tools, but the simpler along with using your brain work best.
Fifth: LOUD WHISTLES attached to you ( crotch one too ).
Sixth: Ditch this pychobabble about working .
Just saying.
Except for windthrown, MEdoo, and a couple of you WITH emergency/mil experience and training, most of these comments are big time BS.
First off: forget the lawyer slease--you see someone in need, get off your a$$ and do it. Never ASK if someone is bleeding out, unconscious, or not breathing, or in need.
Second: Get off your a$$ II-- is go out and get trained. No biggie. There's plenty of programs to show how to save a life or your own.
Third: Who the %$#&@ always has a 'partner' or cronies around when they're working woods ?
Fourth: Look at "blowout kit" contents. Training, duct tape, and ole time kotex ( find full sized blood pads at your local ER. The latest "tampons" are a joke).
Sure you can get any kind of high end emergency tools, but the simpler along with using your brain work best.
Fifth: LOUD WHISTLES attached to you ( crotch one too ).
Sixth: Ditch this pychobabble about working .
Just saying.
Whatever. I think you will be on IGNORE.
MEdooGuide
ArboristSite Member
Unfortunately the lawyer cap is a reality of the world we live in... got to cya.
RandyMac
Stiff Member
yup
jomoco
Tree Freak
Windthrown gave good advice, but kinda shocked me about not usin tourniquets as a go to unless absolutely necessary.
Well duh, a knicked femoral leg artery puts off a hell of a spray. The sooner that tourniquet gets applied and cinched down good, the better that man's chances of living to see an ER.
I know for a fact that nylon loops and biners make an effective upper leg cut tourniquet. That the man will scream and beat at you once it's tight enough to stop squirting, but must be overpowered and transported or else surely lose the leg.
Collapsible stretchers, pneumatic leg and arm splints all in addition to a deluxe Bailey's Woodsman first aid kit, have all come in very handy for me in this biz, when the inevitable happens. No fatalities on any of my job sites in forty years now, knock on wood.
Guy I cinched off lived and kept his leg.
jomoco
tourniquets are frowned on cause peeps that don't know better use them for minor wounds and jeopardize the limb. A femoral artery only give ya like 12 seconds to fix so in that case use it, but use it correctly, otherwise don't **** with it direct preassure is better at stopping bleeding anyway. But I'm not a doctor just a guy with bad balance and poor judgment.
jomoco
Tree Freak
Yeah, well applying direct pressure don't work too well mate, on a femoral cut. It must be cinched off ASAP. That's only half the battle. Transporting a 225 pound in panic mode is another matter that requires cold logic to end well. Time becomes a precious commodity you can't afford fools to spend liberally.
Most of the people in the general public when exposed to true trauma, even brothers and sisters, curl up into useless infants when confronted with blood and guts in real life. I've been directly involved in enough truly bloody incidents to know that direct exposure to them entails a high emotional cost. It's just that some people don't flip out completely and can still function rationally in a crisis situation.
It has been an invariable truth in my case that despite saving the victim from imminent death, once the patient makes it into more qualified and experienced hands, I have broken down into tears and sobbing just from being relieved of that life and death burden.
PTSD is not BS. It's just that succumbing to it afterwards saves a lot of lives.
jomoco
Most of the people in the general public when exposed to true trauma, even brothers and sisters, curl up into useless infants when confronted with blood and guts in real life. I've been directly involved in enough truly bloody incidents to know that direct exposure to them entails a high emotional cost. It's just that some people don't flip out completely and can still function rationally in a crisis situation.
It has been an invariable truth in my case that despite saving the victim from imminent death, once the patient makes it into more qualified and experienced hands, I have broken down into tears and sobbing just from being relieved of that life and death burden.
PTSD is not BS. It's just that succumbing to it afterwards saves a lot of lives.
jomoco
Maybe in Caliphonia the general public becomes a drooling mass of uselessness, not so much in these parts. I don't know many people without some formal first aid training, and I don't mean the crap they teach in high school health class, If there is an accident the first 3-5 cars on the scene will stop and help, not just takes pics and post them on myface.c0m.
Just take a long hard look at the people helping at the OSO slide, for the first 5 days it was nothing but volunteers, volunteers found most of the bodies and saved every life, volunteers kept looking when no one else would. This attitude permeates this entire region, its not just an Oso, Arlington, Darrington thing. This is where the frontier meets the city, **** happens and EMS is sometimes hours away even on a highway.
And yes a major artery is one place where a tourniquet is necessary but its not the god's only truth to saving lives, and a tourniquet has probably killed as many people as its saved by being improperly applied due to toxins in the blood building up in the limb and then suddenly being released usually causing cardiac arrest.
Not to mention that most people have no idea how to properly apply a tourniquet especially since first aid courses have stopped teaching this. There is more to it than just wrapping a belt around the limb and tightening down until the bleeding stops, you have to find a pressure point for one. And you can't leave it on until the ambulance shows up, causing said blood toxins. In fact its better to just use direct pressure, if it don't stop the bleeding apply more pressure, at the very least it will slow the bleeding until help can arrive.
Besides like I said before, with a truly severed femoral artery you have about 12 seconds to stop the bleeding, which gives about 12 seconds to find a pressure point, find something to make a tourniquet with, apply said tourniquet, not pass out in the process, and then call for help, chances of survival slim and none and slim lest town.
Just take a long hard look at the people helping at the OSO slide, for the first 5 days it was nothing but volunteers, volunteers found most of the bodies and saved every life, volunteers kept looking when no one else would. This attitude permeates this entire region, its not just an Oso, Arlington, Darrington thing. This is where the frontier meets the city, **** happens and EMS is sometimes hours away even on a highway.
And yes a major artery is one place where a tourniquet is necessary but its not the god's only truth to saving lives, and a tourniquet has probably killed as many people as its saved by being improperly applied due to toxins in the blood building up in the limb and then suddenly being released usually causing cardiac arrest.
Not to mention that most people have no idea how to properly apply a tourniquet especially since first aid courses have stopped teaching this. There is more to it than just wrapping a belt around the limb and tightening down until the bleeding stops, you have to find a pressure point for one. And you can't leave it on until the ambulance shows up, causing said blood toxins. In fact its better to just use direct pressure, if it don't stop the bleeding apply more pressure, at the very least it will slow the bleeding until help can arrive.
Besides like I said before, with a truly severed femoral artery you have about 12 seconds to stop the bleeding, which gives about 12 seconds to find a pressure point, find something to make a tourniquet with, apply said tourniquet, not pass out in the process, and then call for help, chances of survival slim and none and slim lest town.
