CS Milling 101, Hints tips and tricks

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Another log lifter

Here is something I built a couple of weeks ago for log lifting; nothing fancy but works. Have a blessed day.

Trever
 
Thank you for the compliment stalker. You Yankees can hang in there from time to time as well! :msp_wink:

Trever

:msp_biggrin: People always bustin on southern rednecks . Well , I can attest that no matter what the geographical location , a redneck is a redneck is a redneck . :hmm3grin2orange:

Myself and some friends included , rank fairly high on the redneck scale :givebeer: :cheers: :rock:
 
I see a number of questions regarding chain angles from time to time so though I would put together this post explaining what each of the angles are, their purpose and effects of varying the angles.
I won't go into much detail about how to generate these angles. If there is enough interest I'll do that in another post.

Firstly a quote from the Carlton chain Manual.
It's not specifically directed to milling but it still applies - note the emphasis on rakers rather that cutter edge angles as being the main source of chain problems
CarltonFAQ.jpg

This following figure is modified from the Oregon chain manual and I will refer to each of these below.
Filingangles.jpg

RAKER ANGLE (RA)
The Depth Gauge setting I replace by what I call the raker angle. It's a term use to describe the angle between the wood, cutter edge and top of the raker. RA is a "roll your own" angle since optimal RAs depends on a number of factors like, saw power/torque, drive sprocket pin count, chain, hardness/dryness of wood, length of bar or how many cutters are in the kerf, etc.
The RA works together with the TPFA (See next paragraph) to generate a highly desirable self feeding saw.
I recommend starting with what most new chains have which is a RA of ~6º and then vary up or down from there.
I use about 6.5º for an 880, with an 8 pin drive sprocket, full comp 3/8 chain, in green Aussie hardwood.
The higher the RA the greater initial bite the cutter makes.
Too high a RA and the saw will struggle, increase chain vibe, bar, chain saw wear, and even stall low a powered saw
Too low a RA will result in slow cutting and lots of fine dust frustrating operators causing them to push harder and increase bar and chain and powerhead wear.
Using a 0.025" raker depth during the whole life of the cutter continually decreases the RA and is the main reason why I see operators throw away perfectly good chains because they do not appear to be cutting even when the cutters are razor sharp.
Using a consistent RA means you do not have to worry about keep the cutters the same length since each cutter cuts according to its RA and TPCA rather than its length

TOP PLATE FILING ANGLE (TPFA)
This is traditionally 20 - 35º for cross cutting and les,s eg ~10º, for milling.
A higher TPFA will pull the chain slightly more sideways in the cut hence cutting a slightly wider kerf and vice versa.
The reason for using a higher TPFA for cross cutting is because it involves cutting across wood fibres leaving fibre ends hanging and occupying some space in the kerf. When the chain is blunt the fibres are often torn more than cut and the furry fibre ends can clog a kerf restricting adequate clearing of sawdust making more work for the chain to clear the dust.
Will Malloff uses 0º on his chains. This is fine as long as they are not less than 0º. If they are less than zero the cutter may tend to slew off the cut and not cut as efficiently. This is why I recommend some angle rather than zero. I'm not fussed about this angle being too accurate and my cutters are normally 10º +/- 5º
There is a lot of discussion about TPFA being a significant influence in the finish obtainable by a CSM. I reckon that the stiffness of a CSM and the way an operator guides the saw down the log are much more significant that TPFA. If the mill is a sloppy-joe and the CSM jockey seesaws the mill down the log with uneven pressure, starting and stopping to put in wedges and ramming the CSM into the cut this will produce a far worse finish than a higher TPFA. Most of my chains start out as regular cross cut and they are filed to a TPFA of ~10º over successive sharpening. If I am careful with my mill I see no difference between the finish generated by low or high TPFA.

TOP PLATE CUTTING ANGLE (TPCA).
TPCA determines the hook which combined with RA determines how effectively the saw/chain self feeds.
TPCA variations have the same effect as RA
A cutter with a high TPCA will have a similar effect to a low RA. High TPCA generates a cutter with a squarer cutting edge or less hook which goes blunt slower but provides poor self feeding.
If the TPCA is >90º, then a what is called a back sloped cutter is generated, which will cut poorly or not at all which often results in operators pushing saw harder leading to high bar and chain wear and powerhead overloading and overheating.
If the TPCA is too shallow then the edge of the cutter will also be too fragile and easily break off/wear so the chain will become blunt quickly.
TPCA is a result of the size of the file and it's height above the top of the cutter (or radius of the edge of the grinding and angle of the grinder used).
Like RA, TPCA is a "roll your own" angle since it depends on a number of factors like, saw power/torque, drive sprocket pin count, hardness/dryness of wood, length of bar or how many cutters are in the kerf, etc.
Will Malloff uses a quite shallow angle of 45º on 404" chain. Oregon recommends 50º for its ripping chain.
It's easy to set AN angle on a grinder but as the resulting angle also depends on the radius of curvature of the grinding wheel the actual angle obtained will not be what the grinder says it is. It is quite difficult to measure this angle on a cutter but on 3/8" chain I use whatever a 13/64" file in a 3/16" file guide generates because this seems to produce enough hook for the chain to self feed a little without knocking the edge about too quickly causing it to become blunt too quickly.
For newbies I recommend sarting with 50º and varying it from there.

SIDE PLATE FILING AGLES
This angle is not one that can be actively controlled as it is the result of the combination of TPFA and TPCA. Once these two are fixed this determines the side plate filing angle.

FILE GUIDE ANGLE
Finally comes the file guide angle. This is easy and I just go with what the chain manufacturer suggests.
Usually a slight angle of say 10º helps form a pointier tip on full chisel chain while for semi chisel chain no angle is needed.

I hope this is useful to someone.

Cheers
 
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This IS a Carlton chain (rebranded "WoodlandPRO")

I doubt it will be anywhere near 30% faster than an equivalent 3/8" non-low-profile chain. Don't know who came up with the "30% faster" claim. But it will make a slightly narrower kerf, producing less sawdust, and may be a little faster.

I am frequently using a Stihl 3/8" LP Picco chain on a 25" hard-nose bar, and that setup works quite well. For larger bars, I use full 3/8" chain.

Hello,

First I would like to say that I visited Copenhagen and very much enjoyed the nice people and the Viking Museums there and in Norway and Sweden.

How is the milling going with the 3/8" Picco on the 25" hard nose bar ? Is that the Stihl bar 3003 9630 or the 4030 ? I believe both have the replaceable Sprocket nose or RS guide bar type .

I am confused and just starting to try to buy a saw to use on a logosol Big mill which also uses the Timberjig. I was told to look at picco chain for a narrow kerf. I am looking at the Stihl sawchain and selection chart http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/.../STIHL-Saw-Chain-Selection-Identification.pdf and I do not see picco for a MS 660 or any bar over 18”.
Are people making their own loops for the longer bars with the picco chain or ordering them somewhere ?
Also I have heard that Chiesel cutters give a great smooth surface but do not see that listed on the sawchain chart. Is that what they refer to as K type or Classic ?

What kind of surface does Picco give ?

I have heard that Husqvarna gives a two year warranty and that is why I am leaning towards a 395XP but I am having trouble figuring out the best chain, best bar, drive sprockets combination. I want to not waste money and buy right the first time. I want a 36 inch bar for slabbing and quarter sawing and then use a smaller bar without having to change drive sprockets to run maybe a 28 “ and a 16 inch bar.

Any advice you guys can give is appreciated !
Thanks,
Woodlearner
 
now talking about the Low Profile Ripping Chains.
11.jpg

12.jpg

15.jpg

12.jpg
 
This IS a Carlton chain (rebranded "WoodlandPRO")

I doubt it will be anywhere near 30% faster than an equivalent 3/8" non-low-profile chain. Don't know who came up with the "30% faster" claim. But it will make a slightly narrower kerf, producing less sawdust, and may be a little faster.

I am frequently using a Stihl 3/8" LP Picco chain on a 25" hard-nose bar, and that setup works quite well. For larger bars, I use full 3/8" chain.
I have posted many speed tests comparing the cut times of lo-pro vs. standard 3/8. A 15% - 25% improvement is common, all other things equal.

I have run Woodland Pro lo-pro on 36" bars without any unusual stretching. Special sprockets are required, however, and you do have to be "gentle" with the chain when beginning the cut, or if the bar binds in the cut.
 
Maybe we've already talked about this on this long thread, but since BobL mentioned chain angles, it's only fair to include the Malloff Grind. My test show a 30% speed improvement in softwood, compared to a standard milling chain. It does leave a rougher finish if that concerns you.

175737d1299814095-malloff_chain-jpg


175736d1299814076-malloff_chain2-jpg


The grind requires using a modified 1/8" wheel rather than the standard 3/16" wheel, otherwise the wheel cannot fit into the cutter without nicking the side plates.

The Malloff grind can be touched up with a file in the field, but the filed angles will not be the same as the ground angles and it will not cut as fast. Grinding is the way to go.

http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/167063.htm
 
I have posted many speed tests comparing the cut times of lo-pro vs. standard 3/8. A 15% - 25% improvement is common, all other things equal.

I have run Woodland Pro lo-pro on 36" bars without any unusual stretching. Special sprockets are required, however,

Hello friends,

Any tips on places where to get the best deal on the lo pro ripping chain and special sprockets ? Is this lo pro the same as narrow kerf ? I heard there was a shortage on narrow kerf ? Truth or fiction ?

Thanks and now, Gentlemen, Start your ripping !

Woodlearner
 
Maybe we've already talked about this on this long thread, but since BobL mentioned chain angles, it's only fair to include the Malloff Grind. My test show a 30% speed improvement in softwood, compared to a standard milling chain. It does leave a rougher finish if that concerns you.

The reason the Malloff grind produces a rougher finish is probably related to the use of such a low Top Plate Cutting Angle (TPCA)which will grab and bite deeper and quicker than the higher TPCA angles usually used.

Will Malloff also recommends a fixed 0.045" raker depth for an 090 CS. I hate to question such a knowledgable fellow as WM but I wonder whether he knew/knows about progressive raker depth setting. I suspect his grind recommends a 40º Top plate cutting angle (TPCA, normally 55-60º on cross cutting) because he did not know about progressive raker depth setting. This is typical of, especially old timers, who use constant raker depths and find that as their chains wear that they make more dust then tweak the TPCA to get more grab.

Whatever TPCA is used I agree that ripping needs a lower value than usual to get the chain to bite enough to generate some self feeding.
 
Stihl chains are machine streched while the WoodlandPro are not, therefore the WoodlandPro chains will not handle more than a medium saw, now talking about the Low Profile Ripping Chains.

Now tested, it seems some faster, kerf is smoother, so for now I will only use this chain!
 
after the slab

I have read through the entire post...I just milled a 3 inch slab of hickory that was about 20" in diameter. The tips were very helpful. anyone care to comment on what to do with the wood now? I understand it needs to dry before you can make anything. I would like to make a bench. the wood had been on the ground for about a year. So I understand that I should paint the ends to prevent cracking. any tips on drying, storing, and when is it ready to make into outdoor furniture? thank you
 
Improving the finish

There has been several threads and parts of threads about the finish produced by CSM and I thought I would summarise some ideas here.

There are several kinds of rough finish that can be produced by a CSM.
One is an semi-regular spaced series of lines/grooves at various angles across the cut like this
finish.jpg
This is usually caused by the operator seesawing the CSM down the long and maintaining irregular pressure on the mill.
To avoid this problem maintain a constant angle of cut, avoid seesawing, and use a constant pressure on the mill.
One way to contribute to a constant pressure on the mill is to slope the log so the mill cuts down the slope.
If the operator needs to slow down to reposition their stance or stop to insert wedges the some care should be taken to restart the cut. Rather that "fang" the saw hard back into the cut the saw should be eased into the cut along the same angle of cut.

Another is Washboarding, as shown on the left side of this image
C0ntrast.jpg
I think Washboarding is caused by a synchronizatiion between the chains speed, forward or applied pressure and the width of the cut.
I'm also more likely to see it on initial cuts in softer sapwood. These cuts are of course also narrower than subsequent cuts.
In the image above the two photos are of the same wood, same sharp chain, but cut on right was 30% wider.

Other info on washboarding.
I am more likely to experience mild washboarding with a 120cc powerhead than a smaller power head, more likely to experience washboarding with a narrow cut than a wide cut, and more likely to experience washboarding with on the 1st or 2nd pass of a freshly sharpened chain.

Prevention is difficult as it cannot be predicted and initially the operator will not know this is happening as of course the cut surface cannot be seen until the cut is completed.
If you are concerned about this happening it may help to angle the bar a bit more to the log to in effect produce a wider cut.
A surer way is to make these cut more slowly or use slightly less throttle (bear in mind that WOT should otherwise be used when CSMing)

A third is an irregularly spaced series of lines/groove perpendicular to the long dimension of the log.
This can be caused by a bar that is not set up right or has other problems ( eg coplanar with the mill rails) or being erratically pushed by the operator. This causes the bar to dip slightly in the cut. Ensuring the mill is set up right and being a bit more gentle with the mill should eliminate these problems.

The effect of various skip versus full comp, and full chisel verus semi chisel and various top plate angles are I believe secondary to the the above problems.
The effect of very low rakers and aggressive chain settings potentially causing poor finish is not necessarily the case and shown here http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/244137.htm
 
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A range of setups

Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.

Unistrut log rails
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Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.
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Boomerang shaped log
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Another tricky to start log
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Small mill with Homelite 340.
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Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!
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16ft cedar
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Enough?


i wish the pictures were working! doggone link bucks...
 
I would like to make a bench. the wood had been on the ground for about a year. So I understand that I should paint the ends to prevent cracking. any tips on drying, storing, and when is it ready to make into outdoor furniture? thank you

Depends on the furniture. First of all, you should be aware that hickory doesn't stand up well to the elements, so you will need a good exterior finish. Spar varnish is my standard, but maybe some members will have suggestions. Most benches, Adirondack chairs, and other outdoor furniture is designed to accommodate shrinking and swelling. The rule of thumb, however is one year air drying per inch of thickness, though this depends on your location. I have built benches out of wood right off the sawmill. I use through-mortises held together with wedges. It works, because if a joint loosens up due to drying, I can just tap in the wedge to tighten it back up. Powder Post Beetles, by the way, LOVE hickory, and you sure don't want those critters chewing on your house, so you might want to do a search for that topic.
 
What happened to all the photo's towards the begin of this topic?

I suspect an evil conspiracy of a company wanting to copy Bob's designs.......




Scott (a lot of great info disappeared) B
 

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