How do you file your chains........

MotorSeven · Jun 28, 2006

This is for those of us that hand file your chains. The stihl book says to file from the inside edge to the outside edge. This is also the way i was taught a long time ago, and is the way i have always filed. I recently got a Woodbug chainsaw mill, and in the video they recommend that you file the oposite: from the outside of the cutting edge to the inside. Their reasoning is that this forces the hard chrome coating of the cutter down across the cutting edge, which means the edge stays sharper longer. The other method forces the hard chrome away and off the cutting contact surface, exposing the softer steel under the chrome coating. I did sharpen the mill chain the Woodbug way and it seemed to work fine, although i have no previous experience in milling so have nothing to compare it to. It makes sense, so i am going to try it on the smaller saws.
Anyone else file this way? Pros/cons?
RD

fishhuntcutwood · Jun 28, 2006

Wow, that's interesting. I sharpen mine from the inside to the out. But if it works the other way, and doesn't wear your cutters too quickly, go for it, as far as I can say.

Jeff

Cut4fun · Jun 28, 2006

Newbie at hand filing, so take it with a grain of salt. On round I go inside to out.
But on square chisel filing, I was told to go outside to in. For the reasons given in your thread. I just hope the chains cut at all when I am done. :biggrinbounce2:

sawinredneck · Jun 28, 2006

Cut4fun said:
Newbie at hand filing, so take it with a grain of salt. On round I go inside to out.
But on square chisel filing, I was told to go outside to in. For the reasons given in your thread. I just hope the chains cut at all when I am done. :biggrinbounce2:

AHHHH....... But ain't that the truth!!!
Andy

Paul61 · Jun 28, 2006

MotorSeven said:
This is for those of us that hand file your chains. The stihl book says to file from the inside edge to the outside edge. This is also the way i was taught a long time ago, and is the way i have always filed. I recently got a Woodbug chainsaw mill, and in the video they recommend that you file the oposite: from the outside of the cutting edge to the inside. Their reasoning is that this forces the hard chrome coating of the cutter down across the cutting edge, which means the edge stays sharper longer. The other method forces the hard chrome away and off the cutting contact surface, exposing the softer steel under the chrome coating. I did sharpen the mill chain the Woodbug way and it seemed to work fine, although i have no previous experience in milling so have nothing to compare it to. It makes sense, so i am going to try it on the smaller saws.
Anyone else file this way? Pros/cons?
RD

Just be carefull not to make any sparks :jawdrop:

Sorry RD, an ol' joke from way back (I miss Slappy):hmm3grin2orange:

RaisedByWolves · Jun 29, 2006

OOOoo!! OOOoo!! I know!!! :clap:

I work in tool and die. I sharpen hard steel all daaay loooong.(yes its boring)

When you sharpen hard steel(really hard steel, like it will break if you drop it hard) it grinds (relative term, same goes for filing) and the material removed comes away from the base metal clean. ie its so hard that none of the edge can bend over in the direction that the wheel/file/rock is pushing it.

But if all hard metals were this hard, well........ most stuff wouldnt work, crankshafts would crack, rods would shatter and saw chain would fly at high velocity twords your most private parts.:jawdrop: This is not good.

So the process of tempering was developed. Tempering draws back the level of hardness imparted to the metal during the hardnening process. This leaves the metal mallieable, ie it is still hard, but will bend and not break.

Now I told you all of that to tell you this....... :dizzy:

When you sharpen your saw chain you are effectivly pushing the material off of the edge of the cutter.(think of this like grating cheese) you push the material allong the surface to the edge, but there is nothing behind the very edge to hold it upight so it bends over.

Now comes the important part..... :clap:

It is this little tiny "Burr" that is left on the edge that works against your chain holding a good edge longer.

As the chain makes initial contact with the wood, this "Burr" bends over and breaks off, taking some of the base material with it.

Your formerly (and seemingly) razor sharp chain has just become a radiused or even ramped edge.(microscopically speeking)

This now buggered edge has to work harder to do its job and the chain gets duller quicker.

So if you file your chain from the outside inward, the burr winds up on the inside of the cutter where it will not affect the cutting edge of the tooth when it breaks off.

Clear as mud? :cheers:

ps sorry for the spelling, but Im three beers in.

hoss · Jun 29, 2006

Hey Wolves that was a sensible and well thought out explanation. I will give it a try. The only problem with a good clear answer like that is that it makes it much harder for those of us with tall tales about our miraculous filing technique to sell our un-substantiated claims to other un-suspecting members.:biggrinbounce2:

proud new owner of a real clean 090(YIPEEEE !!!!!)

Lakeside53 · Jun 29, 2006

I file into the cutter occassionally - usually when I mill and the mill is in the way. It's a pain though - hard to stop the chain from chattering. Much easier to file outwards...

046 · Jun 29, 2006

always file from in to out... have to try out to in, to see if it makes any difference?

Kneejerk Bombas · Jun 29, 2006

The problem with Raised by Wolves's explanation is the cutter is not just one type of metal. There is a soft metal chassis and a very thin layer of hard chrome on the outside. The chrome is so hard the file doesn't cut it, it just chips away at it.
The cutter works because as the soft metal under the chrome slowly wears away, the hard edge of the chrome is exposed and does the cutting. This is why you can cut for a very long time if you don't hit foreign objects.
The sharpest edge you can get is the thickness of the chrome. That's the trade off with brands of chain that have thick chrome, they cut slower.
Raised By's burr theory may be true, but the difference is going to be small, and as Lakeside points out, it's a lot easier to file from inside, out.

a_lopa · Jun 29, 2006

I got told by someone who had been told by someone elses freinds brothers dads uncle that square chain you file from edge in.

John Ellison · Jun 29, 2006

If you are talking about sq. filing { i think some are } outside to in is the only way that you can file and see what you are doing. You are looking right at the corner, which is most important, and can see the angles on the tooth.
Inside to out and you are filing half blind unless you stick your head over on the other side of the bar and file toward your eyes. :dizzy:

MotorSeven · Jun 29, 2006

RbW,
Yes, a much better explanation than mine! I don't know if it raelly will be noticable on a small cross cut chain, but like i said i am giving it a try.
John E,
I used to lean the saw against a tree at a 30 or so degree, engine on the ground, bar against the tree and sit behind the saw filing outward. It always seemed awkward, so when i tried this method i set the saw down and sat in front of it, bar facing me. Your right, you can see what the heck you are doing, and it was easier to file. I sharpened the ebay 034 which the chain although newer had hit metal. I cut some disc's out of some small oak and it seemed to cut fine throwing large chips. Only time will tell if the edge will have the same longevity as one filed inside out :chainsaw:

.
Lake,
I did notice some chatter when i was milling the cedar, so when i get some more "mill time(before Miller time)" i will file the other way to see if that has any effect.
Paul,
I always try to stay away from sparks and sap :rock:

!!!!!!!!!!
I have no excuse for spelling...can't drink at work

RD

RaisedByWolves · Jun 29, 2006

Lakeside53 said:
I file into the cutter occassionally - usually when I mill and the mill is in the way. It's a pain though - hard to stop the chain from chattering. Much easier to file outwards...

Motor7, Lake is refering to the file chattering on the tooth while filing.

This is the major draw back to filing this way. I think the manufacturers recommend filing their way so you are not pushing twords the sharp end of the teeth also. A bit of nanny technology on their part.

As to the chrome issue, theres not much that is harder than a file.

Now this is where I take my lumps....

This is the main reason I use the File-n-joint. The FNJ has those little holders that support the tooth when its in position and I have substuted the cap screws/thumb screws that come standard with Wing screws. (I know you have never heard of them, like a wing nut but with a threaded screw rather than a threaded hole)

This allows me to firmly and quickly grip (clamp) each tooth and prevent it from rocking. Its this rocking motion that causes the chatter.

JohnL · Jun 29, 2006

RaisedByWolves said:
Motor7, Lake is refering to the file chattering on the tooth while filing.

This is the major draw back to filing this way. I think the manufacturers recommend filing their way so you are not pushing twords the sharp end of the teeth also. A bit of nanny technology on their part.

As to the chrome issue, theres not much that is harder than a file.

Now this is where I take my lumps....

This is the main reason I use the File-n-joint. The FNJ has those little holders that support the tooth when its in position and I have substuted the cap screws/thumb screws that come standard with Wing screws. (I know you have never heard of them, like a wing nut but with a threaded screw rather than a threaded hole)

This allows me to firmly and quickly grip (clamp) each tooth and prevent it from rocking. Its this rocking motion that causes the chatter.

With the File N Joint, are you supposed to file in both directions, or lift the file after each pass so you only are filing from the inside out?

Paul61 · Jun 29, 2006

RaisedByWolves said:
OOOoo!! OOOoo!! I know!!!

I work in tool and die. I sharpen hard steel all daaay loooong.(yes its boring)

When you sharpen hard steel(really hard steel, like it will break if you drop it hard) it grinds (relative term, same goes for filing) and the material removed comes away from the base metal clean. ie its so hard that none of the edge can bend over in the direction that the wheel/file/rock is pushing it.

But if all hard metals were this hard, well........ most stuff wouldnt work, crankshafts would crack, rods would shatter and saw chain would fly at high velocity twords your most private parts.:jawdrop: This is not good.

So the process of tempering was developed. Tempering draws back the level of hardness imparted to the metal during the hardnening process. This leaves the metal mallieable, ie it is still hard, but will bend and not break.

Now I told you all of that to tell you this.......

When you sharpen your saw chain you are effectivly pushing the material off of the edge of the cutter.(think of this like grating cheese) you push the material allong the surface to the edge, but there is nothing behind the very edge to hold it upight so it bends over.

Now comes the important part.....

It is this little tiny "Burr" that is left on the edge that works against your chain holding a good edge longer.

As the chain makes initial contact with the wood, this "Burr" bends over and breaks off, taking some of the base material with it.

Your formerly (and seemingly) razor sharp chain has just become a radiused or even ramped edge.(microscopically speeking)

This now buggered edge has to work harder to do its job and the chain gets duller quicker.

So if you file your chain from the outside inward, the burr winds up on the inside of the cutter where it will not affect the cutting edge of the tooth when it breaks off.

Clear as mud?

ps sorry for the spelling, but Im three beers in.

Good explanation RBW, too bad we don't have Ol' Slappy to set us straight (NOT) :clap:

As a fellow die maker I agree on all your points save for the last one.

All cutting tools (chainsaw, knives, punches, etc) experience the same edge breakdown (minus the burr) as you described so well.
You may be correct re. the burr, or roll over, caused by filing the edge however there is another factor that causes a rapid breakdown of a cutting edge.
A freshly sharpened (razor like) cutting edge is extremely weak @ the edge tip. This "weak tip" rolls over & breaks off, causing the occurrence of "microscopic" fractures that lead back into the tooth or cutting edge, allowing the cutting edge to break down further (dull) @ a more rapid rate. The harder the cutting edge, the more pronounced & deeper the cracks become.
Same goes for an ice skate blade , the razor edge first rolls over, then breaks off , causing the edge to fracture & the blade to dull rapidly.
As you know re. h.s.s. cutters , etc.............a freshly sharpened cutter will last much longer if the edge is honed (slightly dulled) thus removing the weak tip & not causing the fractures to occur sooner.
If a rolled edge is occurring from filing, this will definitely lead to a more rapid edge breakdown. As for direction of filing, an "outside in" would be the preferred direction, causing less roll over but, making the filing job more difficult due to chattering etc.
I'm not prepared to hone the edges after a filing job but, this would definitely increase time between sharpening!

Paul

West Texas · Jun 29, 2006

I file square chisel chain all the time, outside in, as that is what is prescribed by the books.

If you have a machine thats designed to sharpen square chisel chain then you are home safe, only $700 plus for one of these.

But, if you have to file by hand, then you must use a 'special' beveled edge hand file or a extra small triangular edge file; both of which you can get from Madsens or Baileys. It is important to have the chain either very tight on the bar, in a vice; or in a special made chain clamp to avoid the chattering when you file outside in.

Most people give up on filing square chisel chain and take it to a dealer, etc.

But, hand filing from ouside in, is both an art and a science and I recommend you just take an old piece of square chisel chain and practice, practice, practice. When you get it right, it will seem like the beveled edge just fits perfectly into that tooth as you file outside in. Good luck.

RaisedByWolves · Jun 29, 2006

Paul61 said:
A freshly sharpened (razor like) cutting edge is extremely weak @ the edge tip. This "weak tip" rolls over & breaks off, causing the occurrence of "microscopic" fractures that lead back into the tooth or cutting edge, allowing the cutting edge to break down further (dull) @ a more rapid rate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you know re. h.s.s. cutters , etc.............a freshly sharpened cutter will last much longer if the edge is honed (slightly dulled) thus removing the weak tip & not causing the fractures to occur sooner.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not prepared to hone the edges after a filing job but, this would definitely increase time between sharpening!

Paul

Good points Paul.

But now you have me thinking about fitting a 7/32 round stone to my FNJ and honing at a 60* angle after sharpening.

Some days I hate being a Toolmaker.

JohnL said:
With the File N Joint, are you supposed to file in both directions, or lift the file after each pass

Allways lift your file on the backstroke. "Back dragging" any file chips the edges off of the file effectively dulling it 200-300% faster than only pushing it.

Paul61 · Jun 29, 2006

RaisedByWolves said:
Good points Paul.

But now you have me thinking about fitting a 7/32 round stone to my FNJ and honing at a 60* angle after sharpening.

Some days I hate being a Toolmaker.

Allways lift your file on the backstroke. "Back dragging" any file chips the edges off of the file effectively dulling it 200-300% faster than only pushing it.

RBW, good tip re. backdragging the file.

Yup, toolmaking has it's downside huh, ever notice how long it takes to build anything from wood?? :laugh:

How long have ya been workin @ it?

RaisedByWolves · Jun 29, 2006

Been a Journyman for 14yrs.

Been trying to learn Tool & Die for 18yrs.

The only profession where you know you will never stop learning it.

And speaking of slappy, what happened to him? Banned? Whimpered off into a corner? Spontainious cumbustion? Joined al-caida?

edit......Wood hates me, wont do a damn thing I say........

How do you file your chains........

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