How do you file your chains........

[Paul61]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....if we don't mention her, she might not come back:biggrinbounce2:

BTW, I meant.. how long have ya been workin as a die maker??

 

[MotorSeven]

Paul,Every time i see that avatar, i just shake my head

RbW, Thanks for the chattering clarification("duh" on my part), and it did chatter some but i just kept at it...seems to chatter more on damaged teeth and smooths out once the bent part is filed away.

I'm just the opposite, more comfortable in wood, don't know jack about metal.....got alot to learn in both fields, and don't get me started on 'puters !

 

[coveredinsap]

Good explanation RBW, too bad we don't have Ol' Slappy to set us straight (NOT)

As a fellow die maker I agree on all your points save for the last one.

All cutting tools (chainsaw, knives, punches, etc) experience the same edge breakdown (minus the burr) as you described so well.
You may be correct re. the burr, or roll over, caused by filing the edge however there is another factor that causes a rapid breakdown of a cutting edge.
A freshly sharpened (razor like) cutting edge is extremely weak @ the edge tip. This "weak tip" rolls over & breaks off, causing the occurrence of "microscopic" fractures that lead back into the tooth or cutting edge, allowing the cutting edge to break down further (dull) @ a more rapid rate. The harder the cutting edge, the more pronounced & deeper the cracks become.
Same goes for an ice skate blade , the razor edge first rolls over, then breaks off , causing the edge to fracture & the blade to dull rapidly.
As you know re. h.s.s. cutters , etc.............a freshly sharpened cutter will last much longer if the edge is honed (slightly dulled) thus removing the weak tip & not causing the fractures to occur sooner.
If a rolled edge is occurring from filing, this will definitely lead to a more rapid edge breakdown. As for direction of filing, an "outside in" would be the preferred direction, causing less roll over but, making the filing job more difficult due to chattering etc.
I'm not prepared to hone the edges after a filing job but, this would definitely increase time between sharpening!

Paul

Huh???? How do you figure that??? The only reason a freshly sharpened edge "rolls over' is if;
a) the angle of the edge is too narrow for the hardness/softness of the metal, or
b) it is not a true edge, but is a burr edge as explained previously.

In other words, a properly sharpened edge (angle) will not "roll over" under the stress of normal cutting.

 

[Paul61]

Huh???? How do you figure that??? The only reason a freshly sharpened edge "rolls over' is if;
a) the angle of the edge is too narrow for the hardness/softness of the metal, or
b) it is not a true edge, but is a burr edge as explained previously.

In other words, a properly sharpened edge (angle) will not "roll over" under the stress of normal cutting.

:stupid: :welcome:

Slappy, you never cease to amaze everyone here with your lack of knowledge but, please continue with your moronic posts, as you have now become the AR's single source of idiotic entertainment :jester:
here or not :deadhorse:

BTW, I'm guessin that Google hasn't been much help for ya re. metallurgy & metal workin ........and ya attempt to call yourself a "Bladesmith"
you're a JOKE to the trade(s) Slap , ya have ZERO respect from anyone here, guests or members, so why don't ya STFO

It was quite nice here for the last 10 days or so without ya

 

[Greg Harrison]

Boy I am in for trouble with this post but here it is. Sap's statement about edge roll is absolutely correct, at least in the knife sharpening world. I don't know about the chainsaw example for sure but makes me wonder.
As far as SAP is concerned, he is covered with something but it might not be SAP. I think we encourage him by responding. I think he likes the attention. Be that as it may, he may be correct for once this time!
GregH

 

[coveredinsap]

:stupid: :welcome:

Slappy, you never cease to amaze everyone here with your lack of knowledge but, please continue with your moronic posts, as you have now become the AR's single source of idiotic entertainment :jester:
here or not :deadhorse:

BTW, I'm guessin that Google hasn't been much help for ya re. metallurgy & metal workin ........and ya attempt to call yourself a "Bladesmith"
you're a JOKE to the trade(s) Slap , ya have ZERO respect from anyone here, guests or members, so why don't ya STFO

It was quite nice here for the last 10 days or so without ya

To add insult to injury, we have this little 'gem':

As you know re. h.s.s. cutters , etc.............a freshly sharpened cutter will last much longer if the edge is honed (slightly dulled) thus removing the weak tip & not causing the fractures to occur sooner.

I think that it is general knowledge (except to Paul the tool and die man evidently) that "honing" an edge doesn't dull the edge, but in fact raises the edge into what debatably may be referred to as a "burr edge" or false edge....a very very very sharp but fragile and quickly rolled over edge...hence the need for constant honing to keep the edge sharp and cutting.

 

[Paul61]

Your Slappy theory, as usual, doesn't apply here or in the world of cutting tools. Also your ability to understand the technology contained in the post(s) is also lacking.

For the others that do possess the intelligence:

The honing described by RBW and myself is not to further sharpen the "fresh" edge but, to dull it slightly, thereby removing the fragile edge tip.

BTW, it was wrong of me to include "hand" knives as they do not experience the cutting pressures that we are speaking about here.

Hence the reasoning for your "close to mild steel creations".......right Slap?

Stick to politics, I sincerely believe you could be elected in CA.

 

[1953greg]

"I think we encourage him by responding. I think he likes the attention."

spot on greg. probably suffers from add of a different type.

as for the original question, i find inside out to be more forgiving to my filing errors.

 

[coveredinsap]

Your Slappy theory, as usual, doesn't apply here or in the world of cutting tools. Also your ability to understand the technology contained in the post(s) is also lacking.

For the others that do possess the intelligence:

The honing described by RBW and myself is not to further sharpen the "fresh" edge but, to dull it slightly, thereby removing the fragile edge tip.

BTW, it was wrong of me to include "hand" knives as they do not experience the cutting pressures that we are speaking about here.

Hence the reasoning for your "close to mild steel creations".......right Slap?

Stick to politics, I sincerely believe you could be elected in CA.

You're apparently all wet, dude...and your knowledge of tool and die only appears to be exceeded by your knowledge of politics.

Remind me again please what products you produce in your profession as a "tool and die maker"....so that I can put them on my 'do not buy' list?

People are free to believe what they like, but there is a heck of a lot of misinformation and 'old wives tales' floating around in the world of metalurgy...much of it passed on by tradition and word of mouth in the trades....Paul61 being a prime example of this.

 

[Paul61]

Ah, it's just another of the hundreds of good threads on Chainsaw that have been, or attempted to, destroyed by the girlish virus called "Coveredinsap" that has infected the AR.
They eradicated her over in the Arborists forums for her idiotic posts, I believe the final comment was "It's probably a smart A$$ , no nothin, 14 year old sittin @ his Mommy's computer"
Keep on postin Slappy

 

[coveredinsap]

Ah, it's just another of the hundreds of good threads on Chainsaw that have been, or attempted to, destroyed by the girlish virus called "Coveredinsap" that has infected the AR.
They eradicated her over in the Arborists forums for her idiotic posts, I believe the final comment was "It's probably a smart A$$ , no nothin, 14 year old sittin @ his Mommy's computer"
Keep on postin Slappy

Come to think of it, that would surely account for why your purported "tool and die" knowledge appears to be the equivalent of a 14-year-olds.

By george....It would also account for your juvenile language, preoccupation with teenage girls, usage of cartoon and 'gross' avatars, and other 14-year-old-like behavior.

 

[sawinredneck]

. For the others that do possess the intelligence:

The honing described by RBW and myself is not to further sharpen the "fresh" edge but, to dull it slightly, thereby removing the fragile edge tip.
QUOTE]


What Paul is refering to hear is actually honing across the egde or 'flattening it" if you will. It removes the thin cutting egde and leaves a thicker more durable cutting edge, not as sharp, but last longer. I used this principal a lot in my production machining days on alluminum. You could either run a true copper penny down the flutes to remove the burr, with some success, or run the cutter in reverse on the machine and rub it lightly with a hone. Tremendously cuts down on chatter when using new cutters at high RPM/feedrate cutting proccesses.
Andy

 

[Paul61]

Good post Andy

Nice try to derail the thread Slappy , and for the guests:

Slappy only shows herself around here during the day as she ain't sellin any knives / hammer hawks and........no one in "Nothern CA" will hire her for her carpentry skills

A big "Welcome Back" from the Broke Back Mountain Cruise, .... trouble sittin down Slappy?

 

[romeo]

This is for those of us that hand file your chains. The stihl book says to file from the inside edge to the outside edge. This is also the way i was taught a long time ago, and is the way i have always filed. I recently got a Woodbug chainsaw mill, and in the video they recommend that you file the oposite: from the outside of the cutting edge to the inside. Their reasoning is that this forces the hard chrome coating of the cutter down across the cutting edge, which means the edge stays sharper longer. The other method forces the hard chrome away and off the cutting contact surface, exposing the softer steel under the chrome coating. I did sharpen the mill chain the Woodbug way and it seemed to work fine, although i have no previous experience in milling so have nothing to compare it to. It makes sense, so i am going to try it on the smaller saws.
Anyone else file this way? Pros/cons?
RD

All my chains are filed square but I round file outside in.

 

[Lakeside53]

. For the others that do possess the intelligence:

The honing described by RBW and myself is not to further sharpen the "fresh" edge but, to dull it slightly, thereby removing the fragile edge tip.
QUOTE]


What Paul is referring to hear is actually honing across the edge or 'flattening it" if you will. It removes the thin cutting edge and leaves a thicker more durable cutting edge, not as sharp, but last longer. I used this principal a lot in my production machining days on aluminum. You could either run a true copper penny down the flutes to remove the burr, with some success, or run the cutter in reverse on the machine and rub it lightly with a hone. Tremendously cuts down on chatter when using new cutters at high RPM/feed-rate cutting processes.
Andy

Yes, and it's exactly what's done to wood chisels, pruners, planer blades and other cutters... I have a leather wheel on my Tormek just for that very purpose. I soon know when I forget - the edges get damaged or blunted very quickly.


As for saw chains, I figure the outside burr is honed way in one or two revolutions though the wood. Check a chain from the grinder, then immediately affer a couple of quick cuts in wood. Would be nice to have an automatic honer as part of the grinder though!

 

[Paul61]

Exactly................Andy & Andy, I couldn't have said it better myself

Been a while since I machined Alum., I do remember the large back rake angles required for chip breakers though.
Ever machined or drilled bronze?
I saw a guy drill straight through his thumb while drillin an oil hole in a bronze bushing cause he didn't grind neg. angles on the drill bit... an extreme & painfull example of sharp tool!!

 

[sawinredneck]

Exactly................Andy & Andy, I couldn't have said it better myself

Been a while since I machined Alum., I do remember the large back rake angles required for chip breakers though.
Ever machined or drilled bronze?
I saw a guy drill straight through his thumb while drillin an oil hole in a bronze bushing cause he didn't grind neg. angles on the drill bit... an extreme & painfull example of sharp tool!!

Yep. And this nasty bronze alum. nickel mag. combo, never want to see that crap again!!!
A lot of the newer highsped machins are goin back to 4 flute on alum., running 15-20 grand chip clearance isnt a big problem at 250 IPM.
About the thumb........
I guess I will have to post pics of mine sometime, mitre saw took off the top half a year and half ago, THAT WAS PAINFULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Andy

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

As to the chrome issue, theres not much that is harder than a file.

The point is that the hard chrome doesn't get filed, it chips away, so that on a microscopic level, the sharpest it can get is determined by its thickness. The file doesn't shape the edge of the chrome.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If you consider what the racers do to get a fast cutter, which is to remove the chrome altogether and then sharpen it, I'd guess that actually shaping the chrome doesn't happen even with the best grinders.
It might be like trying to put an edge on a piece of glass with a hammer.

 

[Paul61]

Mike & Dan,

What is the purpose of the hard chrome on the cutter?
I'm thinking that it can't be there to prolong the edges as it's only on 1 side after the factory grind ??
Paul