How do you file your chains........

[buck futter]

I have notice Stihl chain to have a higher durability that its oregon counterpart. Stihl chain is known to have a thicker chrome covering which would be the obvious reason. Granted the chrome is going to make the edge not as sharp but what I have been wondering recently is will the increased chrome allow us to use other ideas to make a faster cutter possibly with a higher durability as well?

Here is what I have in mind, A square filed chain is faster because it has a sharper edge on the side plate. you will also notice that the top plate has a shallower angle than what is necessary on a round filed. The round filed chain must run a greater top plate angle to make the side plate cut. If we went to an extreme we could put the top plate angle to 45 degrees which would cut faster as the side plate would then be sharper, but this would last a very short time before it would become dull.

So while 45 degrees is extreme what if we had a harder more durable metal and instead of the normal 25-30 degree top plate angle we could increase 5 degrees 30-35 degree top plate angle. The side plate would be thinner the edge although slightly more blunt would be durable.

So it looks like stihl is the answer.

although I have heared whiskey is an excellent answer as well. who am I to argue with that.

Uncle buck

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The chrome is hard and makes the edge last longer. It makes the cutter almost self sharpening because the soft chassis of the cutter wears slightly faster than the chrome. This creates and maintains a thin, sharp leading edge, as you cut.
On a microscopic level, the chassis will wear faster than the chrome until eventually the edge of the chrome will stick out too far and a small pieces will chip off, much like when you sharpen the cutter with a file. After a small piece of chrome chips off, the softer metal below will be exposed to the full friction of the wood and wear quickly back to the chrome, again setting up a sharp edge.
If the chrome gets removed too much and exposes too much of the soft steel, your chain is dull. The soft steel will mushroom over and the chips stop flying.
This self sharpening quality of saw chain is why, if you're in clean wood, you can cut for several tanks of fuel without sharpening.
I'm constantly amazed at how long the chain on my topping saw lasts, because I'm up in the tree away from the things that dull saws.

 

[Old Gold]

Outside / In

This is for those of us that hand file your chains. The stihl book says to file from the inside edge to the outside edge. This is also the way i was taught a long time ago, and is the way i have always filed. I recently got a Woodbug chainsaw mill, and in the video they recommend that you file the oposite: from the outside of the cutting edge to the inside. Their reasoning is that this forces the hard chrome coating of the cutter down across the cutting edge, which means the edge stays sharper longer. The other method forces the hard chrome away and off the cutting contact surface, exposing the softer steel under the chrome coating. I did sharpen the mill chain the Woodbug way and it seemed to work fine, although i have no previous experience in milling so have nothing to compare it to. It makes sense, so i am going to try it on the smaller saws.
Anyone else file this way? Pros/cons?
RD

Motor Seven,
I was taught to file this way (outside/in) by an old cutter from the Mt. St. Helens area of Washington State ( the state in which I also live and work ). This individual who taught me this method used to cut the old growth, so I knew he was credible. Being left handed I've found the outside/in method of filing to work great. I usually use round chain too. That is no bullsh*t either about your chain staying sharper longer. Barring any foreign objects dulling the chain, and cutting in clean wood, I can usually fall, limb, and buck logs 6-8 hours with a quick "touch up" at lunch time. I can see what I'm doing so much better too is why I also have had success with outside/in. Depending on how you position your saw when filing (preferably in a vise, when able), you can look right down the valley of the cutter when filing. I was really thankful to have learned this method from a seasoned faller. I never could file worth a sh*t from inside/out. Being left handed didn't help. Good Luck...Casey

 

[Paul61]

Thanks for the info Mike, Buck, & Casey.
What type of filing jig do you find the most accurate?
Been using the cheaper Stihl ones.
Paul

 

[CaseyForrest]

So is the consensus that filing outward/in, is the best way?

Ill have to give it a try on the milling chains and see if it makes a difference.

 

[MotorSeven]

Ditto.........and thanks for all the opinions/info.

RD

 

[rdbee]

[QUOTE
I'm not prepared to hone the edges after a filing job but, this would definitely increase time between sharpening!

Paul[/QUOTE]

Say you were prepared to hone every cutter on a chain, how would you go about it?

 

[sawinredneck]

[QUOTE
I'm not prepared to hone the edges after a filing job but, this would definitely increase time between sharpening!

Paul

Say you were prepared to hone every cutter on a chain, how would you go about it?[/QUOTE]

Do an internet search for EDM stones and find a round, or square, stone that is the same size as you're file and start rubbing the same way you would file when you are done fileing.

 

[kurtty]

honestly, this dulling the edge buisness to increase edge retention is just not the best way to do it.
Not trying to troll or anything. Everything that I have read and learned on sharpening blades says to make it as razor sharp as possible without producing microseration.

Now this is where knives and saws differ. When I sharpen a knife, I continously step up grits until im at 16000 grit. Now, when I use a 300 grit, I can get it pretty sharp, but because the grit is so big, I produce a bunch of microserations wich gives a falsly sharp edge that cuts incredibly good about 4 times... then it turns to ????.
Now files are a set grit, they remove good size shavings. Maybe because the grit of the file is so agressive, it leaves a micro-serated edge that is easily dulled. Maybe getting finer files would drimatically increase how sharp and how long the saw stays sharp.

in the knife world, if you want a knife thats not as sharp, but stays sharp longer, (like an axe) then you back off on the angle in wich you sharpen. If you want something razor sharp (like a razor) then you make the angle steaper.

(fyi, your average bushknife is sharpened at about 30 degrees and a razor blade is about 18 degrees)

It would be nice to get some files to try this out.

 

[Brik]

honestly, this dulling the edge buisness to increase edge retention is just not the best way to do it.
Not trying to troll or anything. Everything that I have read and learned on sharpening blades says to make it as razor sharp as possible without producing microseration.

Now this is where knives and saws differ. When I sharpen a knife, I continously step up grits until im at 16000 grit. Now, when I use a 300 grit, I can get it pretty sharp, but because the grit is so big, I produce a bunch of microserations wich gives a falsly sharp edge that cuts incredibly good about 4 times... then it turns to ????.
Now files are a set grit, they remove good size shavings. Maybe because the grit of the file is so agressive, it leaves a micro-serated edge that is easily dulled. Maybe getting finer files would drimatically increase how sharp and how long the saw stays sharp.

in the knife world, if you want a knife thats not as sharp, but stays sharp longer, (like an axe) then you back off on the angle in wich you sharpen. If you want something razor sharp (like a razor) then you make the angle steaper.

(fyi, your average bushknife is sharpened at about 30 degrees and a razor blade is about 18 degrees)

It would be nice to get some files to try this out.

Reading here to learn. This is the first post that really made sense to me. (well, some others did too). Anyway, I come from a woodworking background and sharpen things like chisles to 8000 grit. Yes, a burr is created but is removed as part of the process of sharpening and flattening the back of the blade, etc. There is also the concept of a micro bevel in woodworking tools.

For those that know what a microbevel is, and that use an adjustible jig, is there any merit to trying to put a micobevel on a chain?

 

[SawTroll]

The problem with Raised by Wolves's explanation is the cutter is not just one type of metal. There is a soft metal chassis and a very thin layer of hard chrome on the outside. The chrome is so hard the file doesn't cut it, it just chips away at it.
The cutter works because as the soft metal under the chrome slowly wears away, the hard edge of the chrome is exposed and does the cutting. This is why you can cut for a very long time if you don't hit foreign objects.
The sharpest edge you can get is the thickness of the chrome. That's the trade off with brands of chain that have thick chrome, they cut slower.
Raised By's burr theory may be true, but the difference is going to be small, and as Lakeside points out, it's a lot easier to file from inside, out.

I totally agree, for practical applications, but the theory behind outside-in is cool.....

 

[kurtty]

After cutting a bunch of pine, poplar and birch, I tried sharpening outside in. The file wanted to skip and jitter no matter what I did.

 

[RiverRat2]

Kurtty!!!!

After cutting a bunch of pine, poplar and birch, I tried sharpening outside in. The file wanted to skip and jitter no matter what I did.

If you are filing by hand,,,, Go from inside the gullet out with a 10deg.vertical lift and a 30 deg horizontal attack angle to the side of the bar,,,, if you are grinding,,,,, outside in,,,,

hand filing: Always push one way only never pull the file backwards, giving a slight twist with the spiral of the cutters on the file with each push,,,if your file is sharp you should feel it bite with every push and if you look close should see the filings flying out,,, Get yer self a file cleaner brush (nicholson makes a good one] and keep the files cleaned out after a days use if you are having to file allot in a day take a couple w/you and swap out if they quit cutting!!!! Nice Dog in the avatar!!! BTW

 

[masiman]

For those that know what a microbevel is, and that use an adjustible jig, is there any merit to trying to put a micobevel on a chain?

I'd be interested to know how a microbevel would perform. There was someone on here that did some testing with chains sharpened to different angles. Maybe they will read this and figure out a way to do it. But my guess is that the time to create the microbevel would not be worth the effort.

 

[Sprig]

?

Kurtty and Brik, what the heck are you guys using thats 16,000x & 8,000x grit?
I can find wet/dry paper up to 2000xx (the skin on your hand is around 3000x+) but I don't go much further that 1500 with paper and sometimes use a fine white Arkansas wet-stone (probably around 4kgrit max) for final finishing on my chisels and knives, end results are very sharp. I've tried the cerium oxide wet-stones at around 6000grit but found it hard to work on as its quite soft and I wreched 'em. Just curious, I like sharp.
One of my references>
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00003.asp



Serge

 

[grawil]

There are a variety of stones that go up to 8000 grit. The most common are Japanese water stones. Natural stones are extremely expensive but synthetic/man made ones are now very good and relatively cheap ($50). There is also a sandpaper based system that yields good results.

For planes & chisels, I stop at 4000 or 8000 depending on the tool and what I'm doing with it. Given the aggressive cutting action of a chain, compared with a plane blade, I honestly cannot see much point in honing. With tuned planes and chisels, you are concerned with nicks and fractures in the mono-layer of material at the edge marring your finish as you purposefully slice thin shavings of dry wood. Generally, you re-hone every 2-10 minutes of use, depending on the finish. Micro-bevels are used to make it easier/faster to resharpen/hone as you remove far less material by adjusting the leading edge and re-flattening the back. Again, I don't see how it would help with chains.

Graham

 

[BobL]

. . . the skin on your hand is around 3000x+

While that is correct it won't sharpen like a 3000 grit stone because you hand is soft and buckles/bends under the pressure.

There are some exceeding fine grits (eg see http://www.internetkebec.net/diamondtools/en/useful_hints.html) that are used with soft leather backings like kid or sheep on cork or wooden surfaces to make amazing sharpening tools. A guy I know uses and oil soaked rouge impregnated MDF wheel on his lathe and gets scary sharp hones with that thing.

A back bevel on a curved or pointed blade is pretty challenging to create on a WW lathe tool so an individual curved CS tooth would be even harder. Hence back bevel on a square CS tooth is probably the only one worth considering but like masiman says, is it worth the trouble.

FWIW I have been having some success using a home made WW hand saw vice to hold chains while I sharpen it. Next time I'm setting up I'll take some pics.

Cheers

 

[Brik]

Google "Scary Sharp".

Water stones, oil stones and sandpaper (depending on country of origin, US and EU differ) will have different standards for measuring 'grit'. 2500 grit US sandpaper is about equal to the JIS (Japanses) 8000 grit waterstone. .00004 inch particle size, 1 micron particle size, 2500 grit US and 8000 grit Jap are all the same (so I am led to believe)

"Scary Sharp" is the method by which you use sandpaper and glass to sharpen woodworking tools, working to progressively finer grits. The method was also described in one of the recent (this year) woodworking mags.

So, what I want is a 'Scary Sharp' chainsaw blade!!!

Kurtty and Brik, what the heck are you guys using thats 16,000x & 8,000x grit?

 

[kurtty]

If you are filing by hand,,,, Go from inside the gullet out with a 10deg.vertical lift and a 30 deg horizontal attack angle to the side of the bar,,,, if you are grinding,,,,, outside in,,,,

hand filing: Always push one way only never pull the file backwards, giving a slight twist with the spiral of the cutters on the file with each push,,,if your file is sharp you should feel it bite with every push and if you look close should see the filings flying out,,, Get yer self a file cleaner brush (nicholson makes a good one] and keep the files cleaned out after a days use if you are having to file allot in a day take a couple w/you and swap out if they quit cutting!!!! Nice Dog in the avatar!!! BTW

I use to sharpen with a 10 degree angle all the time. But now I sharpen at 0. The box that my chain came in (stihl) says to sharpen with no angle and a stihl dvd I have says not to do that either. They say it shortens the life of your chain. So I dont know. I still sharpen at 30 degrees though. I think my file is to big for the chain actually. Im using a 7/32 file and I should be using a 15/64 size file. When I first got the chain, my file wouldn't even fit between the rake and the tooth unless you forced it in. Maybe thats why it jitters when I file outside in. I have a cheapo file cleaner, you can tell its already starting to wear.

Thanks about the dog comment. Thats my mini boarder collie butters. She's a good bush dog.

Kurtty and Brik, what the heck are you guys using thats 16,000x & 8,000x grit?
I can find wet/dry paper up to 2000xx (the skin on your hand is around 3000x+) but I don't go much further that 1500 with paper and sometimes use a fine white Arkansas wet-stone (probably around 4kgrit max) for final finishing on my chisels and knives, end results are very sharp. I've tried the cerium oxide wet-stones at around 6000grit but found it hard to work on as its quite soft and I wreched 'em. Just curious, I like sharp.
One of my references>
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00003.asp



Serge

Well my knife of choice is a spiderco endura 4 with vg-10 steel (spyderco makes the best knives in the world for the price imo). That VG-10 is pretty damn hard stuff. I perchased a lansky guided sharpening system. But it took so long to sharpen with. So we made our own out of polyethylene plastic and somt stainless steel rods. Then a perchased some DMT diamond stones that go up to 1200 grit. I set the angle to about 17 degrees and sharpen my knives. Then I finish with lee valley's sharpening compound 0.1 micron (16000x grit) on a leather strop. Its mostly chromium so its cuts fast. Its the best compound on the market imo. I then inspect it with a 10x eye-loupe (what jewelers use to inspect gems) make sure the edge is even and no scratches.

I should take some pictures of my knife sharpener. I have to get ahold of a camera first here.

That link you posted has ALOT of good information on sharpenning. I was going to go that route (sand paper or water stones) before I settled on these monocrystalene diamond stones.

There are alot of damn good ways to make things sharp thats for sure

 

[scottr]

File size

Kurtty , I think you meant to say 13/64" diameter file not 15/64" .