Trenching through oak roots

Come on Sara tell us what happened at the meeting, don't keep us in suspense.

zzr

These are the only pix I got with the digital camera, after the melee was over. Should have been using both cameras during the whole thing, but events were moving pretty fast there for a while, and I was glad just to be getting it all on the camcorder.

The close up of the truck (the bumper sticker says "Oh well, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway") is the one that shows best how it was lined up with the backhoe. Just imagine the backhoe filling the space between the truck and the trench - which they did fill in, believe it or not.

treeseer said:

If they came 1" onto your property, there could be hellebore to pay.

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As you can see, they did trench on our property, oh, at least 20 ft. or so.

TreeCo said:

G.W. Hayduke is proud of ya!

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May he and his gang live forever!

Account of board meeting coming soon....

I feel bad for the trenching crew, they are caught in between a rock and a hard place. (politics and all....) I can understand their frustration, AND your frustration. All in all Sara, you have been very diplomatic and calm about this whole ordeal. My hat goes off to you for you and your families patience and resolve in this matter. I have seen similar situations, where it has degenerated into violence, vehicle burnngs, assaults and vandalism. Another tip o the hat to your interpersonal skills as well as all the documentation.

SRT-Tech said:

I feel bad for the trenching crew, they are caught in between a rock and a hard place. (politics and all....)

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I agree; they are only pawns in the game. But they may have learned from this ordeal that they should have written and legal authorization to enter properties in their hands before they do. And they like their masters should learn that trees have value, and there should be bmp's for trenching too.

"Oh well, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway"

That is so funny to wake up to this morning, and so sad when the statement is true.

So they trespassed and dug away the roots of your elm tree. If the water company continues its attempt to extort money from you for doing what they should do by moving the line, will you consider filing a criminal complaint for trespass, destruction of proerty, criminal mischief, etc.?

SRT-Tech said:

I feel bad for the trenching crew, they are caught in between a rock and a hard place. (politics and all....)

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treeseer said:

I agree; they are only pawns in the game.

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When they tore up the corner of our property about a month ago to bare the water main, the young guy who was trying to find our water meter (as I was headed out to see the county judge) looked at me as if to say, "Please forgive me, mam." I felt really bad for him, as I do for the ones who were laying line in the backhoe's wake the day of the confrontation. But I believe that backhoe operator has been complicit with the higher-ups all along. He knew full well what he was doing.

SRT-Tech said:

Another tip o the hat to your interpersonal skills as well as all the documentation.

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Thanks for the encouraging words. Wouldn't have been able to do it without this site. Really. Thanks to everyone that makes it possible!

Time out for a purely arboricultural question. I'd like to address this question before I get back into politics.

Sara said:

BTW, can a Siberian Elm have the silhouette of an America Elm? You know, tall, with that graceful umbrella-like canopy?

And is it common to get a second opinion?

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trees4est said:

In the arborists final report, did he list the elm as a Siberian elm? From the photos, it really did not look like one, the form, the bark color- but he is probably pretty used to the trees around there, I don't want to second guess someone who was there from my seeing a small online photo. Just wondered if that was his final verdict.

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My arborist must be on an extended vacation or something, because he hasn't answered any of my emails or phone calls since he sent his report. I also mailed him a copy of the newspaper article. I don't know, maybe this isn't a purely arboricultural question, but has political implications as well.

arboralliance said:

my guess is now you're beginning to understand what real Arborists do nearly every day...

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Anyway, here are some more pix of the elm:








I love standing under this tree on a starry night, when it becomes the "tree of stars".

Board Meeting Part One

Thursday morning, we scanned the newspaper for an article on Monday's events. There was no article yet, but there was a notice in the Public Events section announcing the water company board meeting that was to be held later that morning.

Daniel was acquainted with one of the board members from a financial how-to class the board member had taught at church. So Daniel gave him a call at the bank where he works. The board member said he had been completely unaware of the situation and that he and his colleagues would be very interested to hear about it. He asked us if we would please attend the meeting, which would be starting at 10:00. Daniel told him we might be running late because of a 9:30 appointment, and the board member said that was fine, please come anyway.

I was a little leery at first of attending the meeting (mostly little insecurities and fears, I guess) but Daniel was positive it was the right thing to do. And by the time we left the lawyer's office, I agreed with him 100%. That meeting with the lawyer was a real downer.

She was in the middle of fighting her own personal eminent domain case with the State Highway Dept., and she was very pessimistic about our chances in court. She said these cases are "a nightmare" and assured us that the water company would see our property condemned. And it would cost us upwards of $5000 to obtain that result. When we got out of there at 10:00, our spirits had sunk pretty low.

But we gave ourselves a little pep talk on the way to the meeting and were energized by the time we arrived. I think we realized that lawyers were going to be worthless in this situation, and that the board meeting - not the court system - was the place to start our search for justice. The courts may come into play later, though.

So, walking into the meeting, the first thing I noticed was that the door was stuck shut, and we had to kinda pull. on. it. several. times. to get it open, so that it finally swung open with a lurch, sort of announcing us. "We're heeeer!"
:jawdrop:
The second thing I noticed was the little table set up beside the door at which 2 women were seated with pens and paper. I knew one of them was taking minutes, but as we walked in, the other's face looked like a kid's on Christmas morning. I wasn't sure at first, but I later learned that she was the reporter who was doing our story. She's also Daniel's ex cousin-in-law.

BTW, can you tell, between my husband and me, who's from around here and who's not?

So we tip-toed in - Daniel, our 10-year old son (who is a great fan of the oak swing and has taken quite an interest in this process) and I. Looking around the room, I saw the 8 board members seated at a raised dais in the front of the room. The rest of the room was filled with tables, at which people were seated here and there. Off to the side was the small table with the secretary and the reporter. Chairs were stacked in the back of the room, so we made our way toward those, and Daniel put out 3 for us. As we were sitting down, the board member Daniel had phoned moved that they leave off the item they had been discussing to recognize us. There was a flurry of activity and papers shuffling, someone seconded the motion, and then a gentleman, who was sitting with his back to us at one of the tables, turned around, gave Daniel a wide, toothy grin and said, "The floor is yours."

[qoute] She said these cases are "a nightmare" and assured us that the water company would see our property condemned[/qoute]

HUH? as far as i'm aware, only the Health Board can "condemn" a property......how does the water company have that power?

BTW, keep yer spirits up eh?!!!! you got a lot of people here for support!

There are differenet levels and types of property condemnation. Health departments can condemn properties as well as various branches of govt from local up.

This is not an issue here and Sara and Daniel will not be losing this battle as I have stated from the beginning. That is unless the liberal left have a civil war and we become some country that is not called America.

Charlie

ah gotcha. I was'nt sure what the process was for condemnmation in your area...

here it is a joint effort between Fire dept and Health.

Identification of trees...

Sara said:

Time out for a purely arboricultural question. I'd like to address this question before I get back into politics.





My arborist must be on an extended vacation or something, because he hasn't answered any of my emails or phone calls since he sent his report. I also mailed him a copy of the newspaper article. I don't know, maybe this isn't a purely arboricultural question, but has political implications as well.



Anyway, here are some more pix of the elm:








I love standing under this tree on a starry night, when it becomes the "tree of stars".

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Sara said:

BTW, can a Siberian Elm have the silhouette of an America Elm? You know, tall, with that graceful umbrella-like canopy?

And is it common to get a second opinion?

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Trees can take on many different forms under many different conditions...

A second opinion is esential and even a third or forth as is common when getting into the technical nitty gritty of Arboriculture...

Seek Arb' consultancy from someone with at least 5 years practical field experience behind them or preferaly 10 or more years...

Could we please have a close up/macro shot of the/a leaf, seed (and or flower) and bark (without lichen) of the tree needing I'D'?

Your Arborist is invariably extremely busy and therefore possibly unavailable to further assist without billing you further?

I also know up here in Queensland (way, way, way down south to you all...) not many, if any Arborists would be able to I.D. European or deciduous tree's without allot of scratching around as they are only fluent in sub and tropical trees...

[I also know of Level 5 (Diploma level - 3 years part time study or one year full time) consulting and management Arborists here with only three years inside the industry in management, whom are being used as expert witness in court whom have never climbed or realistically cut or remediated trees (little or no field experience) and therefore should not realistically be in the position of consultant or any other position of authority in Arboriculture, darn politics...Money buys anything but experience...Or love...]

Board Meeting Part Two

Daniel stood up and gave the rundown of our situation. He was calm, cool and well-spoken. He did a great job of starting things off in a spirit of cooperation rather than conflict. Nonetheless, I noticed the gentleman of the winning smile (still sitting a couple of tables in front of us) getting fidgety, and the backs of his ears were turning red. It dawned on me: he must be the general manager! And he couldn't have had much, if any, time to prepare for this unexpected detour in the proceedings. Was he caught unawares? Oh well, paybacks are hell! Not that that was our intention. It just happened that way.

The board received Daniel genially when he approached them with the photo album. They were very interested in the photos and asked him many questions. The GM got to his feet, shuffling, red-eared, from his table to the dais and back again.

As more of the board members finished looking at the pictures, they began firing questions at the GM and the supervisor, the main question being, "And why aren't you running the line on the west side of the road?" There were some red faces on that dais by now. Though they continued being cordial to Daniel, it was easy to tell they were not a happy lot.

Except perhaps for the one board member who caused quite a bit of consternation on the dais when he piped up with, "I clear a lot of trees and here we have some people who are tryng to save theirs. Trees are dying everywhere, all the time, and their trees could be dead in six weeks and they'd never be able to prove what caused it!" The general attitude toward that comment was, "Yeah, yeah, could you zip it now?"

So, the GM and the supervisor were attempting to explain why they weren't trenching on the west side of the road. Mostly, they whined, it was cost prohibitive and besides, they had a "standing right-of-way with the county" to do whatever, whenever they needed. (We have since come to learn that there is no such animal as a "standing right-of-way", which I'm sure the hatter could have, probably has, told us.)

Oh, and they admitted to the myth of the "60 foot extended right-of-way" that the backhoe operator had claimed for them on that "fateful" morning six weeks ago. It was and is nonexistent. (That's the 30 feet in either direction from the centerline of the road that had been surreptitiously marked with a pink-tied nail, still there, in the trunk of our oak.)

Still, the explanation kept coming back around to how poor they were (the GM and the supervisor, that is), and how they would have to cross the road twice; they just couldn't manage it. But they would do everything in their power to give our trees a wide berth when they came trenching down the centerline. Well, our trees overhang the centerline.

So, in an attempt to lock them into crossing the road, Daniel offered to help pay for it.

You could've heard a pin drop for a few seconds there, and then there was a general gooing and cooing over Daniel's generosity. But several board members noticeably abstained from this. One of them, with crossed arms and red face, declared, with a sort of irritated disbelief, "Oh, I think we can cross the road, even twice, at our own expense."

When our portion of the meeting was over, we tried to excuse ourselves quietly, but the door just wouldn't cooperate. It did that thing again, except in reverse. We tried to close it one... two, three. times. but it kept creaking back open, until finally the reporter advised us just to slam it. We went out, as we came in, with a bang.

As I look back on that experience, our renewed sense of empowerment from it seems kind of false. The GM seems to have retained control over this project and is not taking into account as much of what the board had to say about it as we would have liked. I must say I feel a sense of desperation about him. Desperate to save face? Perhaps that'll trip him up.

Next.... The Contract.

By the way, thanks for hanging in there with me while I bear witness.

If the Board does not speak strongly enough for the GM to hear, can you go over their head to the utility commission?

Good story--in and out with a bang, hah!--but I want to hear a happy ending with healthy trees and no money out of your pocket for their work. Think about it, you already paid once, with bills for water...

if the centerline is at the dripline, a trench there should be ok. If that saves them money, could it be a fair compromise?

Sorry the arborist is out of touch--keep trying ok?

treeseer said:

if the centerline is at the dripline, a trench there should be ok. If that saves them money, could it be a fair compromise?

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The problem with letting them trench up the centerline is this:

They're not really trenching up the centerline.

The guy who locates utility lines (One-Call) was out last week to mark the buried phone and cable lines. According to these markings, with the 18-inch safety zone, those lines pretty much take up the whole west half of the road. Which means their trench will probably end up on the east half of the road, with the western edge of it down the centerline, maybe. This is barely out of the ditch line they were trenching up that day. And well within the drip lines of the trees, especially the elm.

That elm is 46 feet tall with a crown spread of 60 feet. It's got roots all over the place.

We just don't trust them, and if we back down and allow them to come up the centerline, there's no telling what we'll end up with. A chance we'd rather not take. Better, safer to keep them as far away from the trees as possible.

treeseer said:

I want to hear a happy ending with healthy trees and no money out of your pocket for their work.

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This may seem like a heartbreaker, but if we continue to play our cards right, we will be able to work it to our advantage.

We've already paid "half the projected cost of this charade". And signed a contract to pay the rest.

Several factors went into that decision. First and foremost is the fact that we are not the only ones bound by a contract now: they are too. Second, Daniel was preparing to return to the Gulf for six or eight weeks and having them locked into crossing the road made it easier for him to go to work with peace of mind (one never knows what they, left unrestrained, might do while he's 120 miles offshore and incommunicado. Not that I couldn't or wouldn't handle it alone to the best of my ability, it's just... well, harder that way). Third, even if we do end up paying the full amount, it will be less expensive than a lawyer and a court case; and fourth, there are several ways we might be able to get out of paying the other half of the money and/or recoup our losses.

When we received the cost estimate, after we mulled it over, we decided to head straight up there and write them a check for half. No appointment or advance notice at all. The GM happened to be in and was taken aback at first. See, I really think he was counting on it being "cost prohibitive" (as he said in his letter) for us, which would enable him to go ahead and trench up the centerline or, really, just barely to the west of our ditchline. So, we worked up the contract, with an agreement to pay the the other half in monthly installments, that will NOT appear as surcharges on our water bill.

treeseer said:

If the water company continues its attempt to extort money from you for doing what they should do by moving the line, will you consider filing a criminal complaint for trespass, destruction of proerty, criminal mischief, etc.?

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The last lawyer we talked to, when she called to congratulate us on our victory, said that if we worked up a contract in this matter, the water co. would put in a clause stating that we could never sue them for damages of any sort.

Well, guess what? There is no such clause in our contract. Perhaps we caught the GM off guard, hm?

Besides the criminal acts, we've got lost wages, the tree appraisal, roaming cell phone calls, signs and tape and a title search (which, again, showed no water easement whatsoever on or around our property), so I think we can mount a suit for at least the amount we're out for the water line. And we can probably do that in small claims court, for which we won't need the services of a lawyer.

By the way, the check went through our account a week ago, and we have seen hide nor hair of the water company.:Eye:

Sara said:

we can mount a suit for at least the amount we're out for the water line. And we can probably do that in small claims court, for which we won't need the services of a lawyer. :

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Bingo! If they saw their names about to go on a small claims suit, they might settle up quick to avoid the bad PR. Works that way here, anyway.

You guys are really on the ball!

This trenching scenario aside, did the arborist give any recommendations on caring for your trees?

Sounds like clear cut (pardon the pun) extortion...

Sara said:

Except perhaps for the one board member who caused quite a bit of consternation on the dais when he piped up with, "I clear a lot of trees and here we have some people who are tryng to save theirs. Trees are dying everywhere, all the time, and their trees could be dead in six weeks and they'd never be able to prove what caused it!" The general attitude toward that comment was, "Yeah, yeah, could you zip it now?"

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Perhaps be an interesting scenario might be to make inquiries as to where exactly this company has been working and propose a class action as it smells like others were not as fortuitous as you 'n yours...Karma has a unique way of appearing like the hand of providence (and visa-versa)...

(Incidentally you could very easily prove what caused it as I am sure you are becoming aware of, there ain't much you can't prove or figure when inside a modern science laboratory).

treeseer said:

This trenching scenario aside, did the arborist give any recommendations on caring for your trees?

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No, he made none of those kinds of recommendations, even though he did take notes on all the trees. That consultation was pretty specific to the trenching scenario. I would like to consult him on the general care of our trees, though. We have a black walnut that is bigger than the oak, 2 big old pecans, a hackberry, 2 redbuds, a pine of some sort, and a beautiful mature (not "overmature") red oak. I'm a little worried about the red oak, because the lower branches on one side of it are devoid of leaves this year. But the rest of it looks healthy as can be. And one of the redbuds, which was not in the best health anyway, was dealt its death blow when the water company trenched underneath it to expose the water main. Where before it looked like it could have held its own given some TLC, it is obvious now that it is dying and probably can't be saved. They've left that trench, which is just barely off our property, wide open for over a month now.

arboralliance said:

Perhaps be an interesting scenario might be to make inquiries as to where exactly this company has been working and propose a class action as it smells like others were not as fortuitous as you 'n yours...

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This water company is notorious for its renegade tendencies. Has been for years. I think they've gotten worse here recently, though, because of the political climate in our country. The robber baron is back in style, but with a 21st century flair; that is, all the little podunk barons are in on the act now. I've found a dozen or so articles on our outlaw water co. in the archives of our newspaper that might be useful to us.

arboralliance said:

Karma has a unique way of appearing like the hand of providence (and visa-versa)...

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Well said.