Av gas works in a pinch, especially in applications where instant throttle response isn't required.
You will also never have a a varnish issue with it as it lasts forever.
661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?
- Thread starter redbull660
- Start date
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You will also never have a a varnish issue with it as it lasts forever.
I don't understand how oil can lower octane rating if a diesel motor (all oil) can run compression of over 20:1. Is 2 cycle oil in some way different?
If adding gas to oil raised the octane, you could safely add gas to diesel (don't try this at home!!!).
If adding gas to oil raised the octane, you could safely add gas to diesel (don't try this at home!!!).
I call complete BS on that with modern oils. Although I suspect it was BS in the 70's too.
KG441c
Keith
I like Sunoco 110 blue / 87efree at 50/50 mixed @ 32:1 with h1r. Never had a tuning issue or depoist buildup but only a light brown transparent like stain on piston top
Trx250r180
Saw polisher
Do your engines run different with it ?
Diesel is designed to ignite by compression. Totaly different kettle of fish.
redbull660
Addicted to ArboristSite
ok oil geeks! Chew on this.... I better get some serious amount of likes outta this one! heh
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Redbull says -
Sir, well i did the test. I've attached a picture of the spreadsheet with the numbers.
- The stihl and belray 50:1 did the best time wise. I show *32.8 because I had a hangup during the cut.
- It appears that Belray gets to it's temp faster than stihl. Stihl 50:1 cut
1 cyl temp =248 vs 265 on belray 50:1. but the belray stays cooler on cut 2.
stihl 50:1 cut 2 - 285 vs 273 belray 50:1. Gotta like that!
- lot of guys are wondering why the heavier mix (42:1 and 32:1) didn't perform better...actually many were thinking the 32:1 would win on both time and heat and the exact opposite happened...it did the worst...by a lot on
time. Would you have an answer on that?
Does it have to do with the compression of the stock saw at approx 170psi vs what many of them have are "ported" saws running 215 psi?
Respectfully,
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Belray says -
As you know I am no expert on saws, but since the data collection was done so well, I think I have a pretty clear picture. When you are adding more oil to the mixture you are providing more oil to form the fluid film in the cylinder. That film does offer some resistance to the movement of the piston and could slow it down some. Remember, the main goal of the lubricant is to protect before anything else. It is protecting the surface but it will also impede the movement slightly because of its physical nature.
Now, when you are talking about rpms in the low thousands of larger engines, the difference will be small, but when you start reaching the high rpms of a wide open throttle in a small 2-stroke motor, the difference in engine speed can be more noticeable. Therefore, the saw is spinning just slightly slower and the cutting would take longer. This would also affect the temperature because as the engine is spinning slower, the fuel/oil mix is entering at a slower rate so there is less fuel and oil entering into the cylinder to cool the piston.
Based on your data, I think that is an accurate assessment of what is occurring and why the numbers are coming out the way they are. It looks to me that the 42:1 mix is a safe bet based on the temperatures. From cut 1 to cut 2 it had the smallest temperature gap meaning that amount of oil is keeping the cylinder the steadiest temperature and not getting too hot over time. The other oil and mixtures have larger temperature gaps so you don't have as good of an equilibrium as you are seeing with the 42:1 in terms of friction and cooling.
I honestly couldn't tell you what the compression difference between the saws would do, but as long as you test the same compression saw, the differences you recorded tell you a lot.
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Redbull says -
Well that makes a lot of sense. thank you!
The particular saw tested has an autotune setup which checks several criteria approx 33 times a second. Several guys think that the saw wasn't automatically adjusting to the new mixes. Based on what you said I'm thinking this is now unlikely. Their position is that I may need to perform a "reset" process to reset the computer for each mix. This seems highly unlikely, given the range of variables this computer/autotune has to be set for for the end user. Temperature, quality of gas, elevation, quality of air and so on.
So obviously I am of the opinion that it seems highly unlikely that a reset would need to be performed. BUT I will ask anyway... are you aware of any common practice where such a "reset" would be performed given these changes of oil/gas mixture? (50:1 down to 32:!) ?
Next question - would it be fair to say that a higher compression would displace or shall we say spread out/thin out the oil film vs lower compression? Thus you would want a heavier mix of oil closer to 32:1 for a higher compression motor?
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Belray says -
I honestly don't know about the computer resets so I wouldn't want to give you the wrong information regarding that. For the most part, higher compression isn’t going to physically affect the oil film much. That is not to say that compression doesn't have any affect on the oil, but you won't notice a difference in the oil's physical behavior with that compression change. With any compression, bulk oil gets pushed to the sides and down along the piston skirt, but the films will remain in tact because oil is not a very compressible liquid. The oil films are affected much more strongly by the pressures between the piston and the cylinder than it is by the combustion compression.
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Redbull says -
reset - no problem at all. It would just be speculation anyway. Unless it was a generally accepted/known/performed practice.
- would it be fair to say a higher quality oil like belray h1r at 50:1 vs a lower quality oil at 50:1 would provide a better film?
- What are some of the reasons that Belray would recommend going from say a
42:1 mix to a 32:1 mix?
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Belray says -
Yes in general you can use less of a high quality oil than you would of a low quality oil, and the oil film it provides is better than the Stihl oil for sure.
The only reason to go from a leaner ratio to a richer oil mix would be if the engine is under lubricated and not getting enough oil. When I mentioned in my previous email about reaching that equilibrium, that is what you want in any 2-stroke engine is to find the equilibrium mix ratio. This provides a steady temperature without spikes, enough oil to lubricate but not too much oil that will bog the engine down and reduce the power. If you find there isn’t a good film or overheating of the surfaces, you may want to increase to a 32:1.
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Redbull says -
So to find equilibrium, would you say the main thing to actually look for wouldn't necessarily be speed. But instead, steady temperature readings?
Or maybe a combo of both? If both, then, just eyeballing it, I would guess
somewhere in the middle of 42 and 50 for this particular saw, probably 45:1.
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Belray says -
Yes maybe 45:1. If you are opening up the case and pulling the pistons periodically, that is a good source of information too. The temperature is good, the speed is relevant too. If you look at the piston and can see that there aren't any deposits and there is a film of oil on all the moving parts, then you have found or are at least adequately close to your equilibrium point with the oil.
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Redbull says -
So my piston head after running Stihl now for about 20 tanks has some nice black baked on finish...any chance running belray will clear that up?
regardless I'll still use it and be good with it. I'm just hopeful it'll clear up.
So combo of speed, steady temps, and how the parts look?
..and would this be a correct statement? Most oils don't have any effect on octane. Besides most of the oil drops out of suspension as soon as the fuel air mixture enters the crankcase. So in reality what oil is in the combustion chamber is coating the piston, head, cylinder walls, etc and not part of the charge being ignited.
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Belray says -
Yes you should see those black deposits clear up over time. It's hard to say how quickly, but the H1-R should definitely begin cleaning it up.
Yes that combination will tell you just about all you need to know in order to make the correct mix ratio choice.
Yes that statement is very accurate. Typical oils will not affect combustion for those reasons. It does burn, but not explosively like gasoline to attribute to octane rating.
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continued...
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Redbull says -
Sir, well i did the test. I've attached a picture of the spreadsheet with the numbers.
- The stihl and belray 50:1 did the best time wise. I show *32.8 because I had a hangup during the cut.
- It appears that Belray gets to it's temp faster than stihl. Stihl 50:1 cut
1 cyl temp =248 vs 265 on belray 50:1. but the belray stays cooler on cut 2.
stihl 50:1 cut 2 - 285 vs 273 belray 50:1. Gotta like that!
- lot of guys are wondering why the heavier mix (42:1 and 32:1) didn't perform better...actually many were thinking the 32:1 would win on both time and heat and the exact opposite happened...it did the worst...by a lot on
time. Would you have an answer on that?
Does it have to do with the compression of the stock saw at approx 170psi vs what many of them have are "ported" saws running 215 psi?
Respectfully,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
As you know I am no expert on saws, but since the data collection was done so well, I think I have a pretty clear picture. When you are adding more oil to the mixture you are providing more oil to form the fluid film in the cylinder. That film does offer some resistance to the movement of the piston and could slow it down some. Remember, the main goal of the lubricant is to protect before anything else. It is protecting the surface but it will also impede the movement slightly because of its physical nature.
Now, when you are talking about rpms in the low thousands of larger engines, the difference will be small, but when you start reaching the high rpms of a wide open throttle in a small 2-stroke motor, the difference in engine speed can be more noticeable. Therefore, the saw is spinning just slightly slower and the cutting would take longer. This would also affect the temperature because as the engine is spinning slower, the fuel/oil mix is entering at a slower rate so there is less fuel and oil entering into the cylinder to cool the piston.
Based on your data, I think that is an accurate assessment of what is occurring and why the numbers are coming out the way they are. It looks to me that the 42:1 mix is a safe bet based on the temperatures. From cut 1 to cut 2 it had the smallest temperature gap meaning that amount of oil is keeping the cylinder the steadiest temperature and not getting too hot over time. The other oil and mixtures have larger temperature gaps so you don't have as good of an equilibrium as you are seeing with the 42:1 in terms of friction and cooling.
I honestly couldn't tell you what the compression difference between the saws would do, but as long as you test the same compression saw, the differences you recorded tell you a lot.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
Well that makes a lot of sense. thank you!
The particular saw tested has an autotune setup which checks several criteria approx 33 times a second. Several guys think that the saw wasn't automatically adjusting to the new mixes. Based on what you said I'm thinking this is now unlikely. Their position is that I may need to perform a "reset" process to reset the computer for each mix. This seems highly unlikely, given the range of variables this computer/autotune has to be set for for the end user. Temperature, quality of gas, elevation, quality of air and so on.
So obviously I am of the opinion that it seems highly unlikely that a reset would need to be performed. BUT I will ask anyway... are you aware of any common practice where such a "reset" would be performed given these changes of oil/gas mixture? (50:1 down to 32:!) ?
Next question - would it be fair to say that a higher compression would displace or shall we say spread out/thin out the oil film vs lower compression? Thus you would want a heavier mix of oil closer to 32:1 for a higher compression motor?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
I honestly don't know about the computer resets so I wouldn't want to give you the wrong information regarding that. For the most part, higher compression isn’t going to physically affect the oil film much. That is not to say that compression doesn't have any affect on the oil, but you won't notice a difference in the oil's physical behavior with that compression change. With any compression, bulk oil gets pushed to the sides and down along the piston skirt, but the films will remain in tact because oil is not a very compressible liquid. The oil films are affected much more strongly by the pressures between the piston and the cylinder than it is by the combustion compression.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
reset - no problem at all. It would just be speculation anyway. Unless it was a generally accepted/known/performed practice.
- would it be fair to say a higher quality oil like belray h1r at 50:1 vs a lower quality oil at 50:1 would provide a better film?
- What are some of the reasons that Belray would recommend going from say a
42:1 mix to a 32:1 mix?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
Yes in general you can use less of a high quality oil than you would of a low quality oil, and the oil film it provides is better than the Stihl oil for sure.
The only reason to go from a leaner ratio to a richer oil mix would be if the engine is under lubricated and not getting enough oil. When I mentioned in my previous email about reaching that equilibrium, that is what you want in any 2-stroke engine is to find the equilibrium mix ratio. This provides a steady temperature without spikes, enough oil to lubricate but not too much oil that will bog the engine down and reduce the power. If you find there isn’t a good film or overheating of the surfaces, you may want to increase to a 32:1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
So to find equilibrium, would you say the main thing to actually look for wouldn't necessarily be speed. But instead, steady temperature readings?
Or maybe a combo of both? If both, then, just eyeballing it, I would guess
somewhere in the middle of 42 and 50 for this particular saw, probably 45:1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
Yes maybe 45:1. If you are opening up the case and pulling the pistons periodically, that is a good source of information too. The temperature is good, the speed is relevant too. If you look at the piston and can see that there aren't any deposits and there is a film of oil on all the moving parts, then you have found or are at least adequately close to your equilibrium point with the oil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
So my piston head after running Stihl now for about 20 tanks has some nice black baked on finish...any chance running belray will clear that up?
regardless I'll still use it and be good with it. I'm just hopeful it'll clear up.
So combo of speed, steady temps, and how the parts look?
..and would this be a correct statement? Most oils don't have any effect on octane. Besides most of the oil drops out of suspension as soon as the fuel air mixture enters the crankcase. So in reality what oil is in the combustion chamber is coating the piston, head, cylinder walls, etc and not part of the charge being ignited.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
Yes you should see those black deposits clear up over time. It's hard to say how quickly, but the H1-R should definitely begin cleaning it up.
Yes that combination will tell you just about all you need to know in order to make the correct mix ratio choice.
Yes that statement is very accurate. Typical oils will not affect combustion for those reasons. It does burn, but not explosively like gasoline to attribute to octane rating.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
continued...
redbull660
Addicted to ArboristSite
Redbull says -
excellent!
so does belray h1r affect combustion? if so, how? you said "typical oils
will not"...belray isn't typical !
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Belray says -
It is typical in that way haha. You'll remember in a previous email I went in to how the H1-R affects the different octane rating measurements. It only affects the octane by a fraction of 1/5 of 1 octane, so it is fairly negligible of an affect on the combustion process.
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Redbull says -
haha well that's good!
I know one gentlemen wanted me to ask... Ok so he has a regular carb that requires screw driver adjustment H, L, Idle. According to him, and I quote "H1R does seem to burn clean, but it changes the combustion properties of the fuel mix, you have to open up the jets quite a bit to compensate.....
Why does H1R require more fuel than most other 2T oils? The only other oils that leaned out the mixture that much, had some castor oil in it. Is it the solvent in the oil or the oil itself? "
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belray says -
That is a common occurrence when using H1-R and well understood. Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well.
-------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
stihl ultra syn 40:1 92 eth free after 13 tanks.
----------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
That is some serious buildup on the piston. It may take longer than I originally thought for the H1-R to clear it up, but you should definitely see a difference going forward.
----------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
that was my friend's piston. I was running 45:1 and mine looks a little better, however I do not have a picture. You can actually gently scrape away some of the black stuff on mine. ...would that indicate he was running to rich of a mix and burning oil? And I'm guessing this wouldn't happen with belray...just proves how much stihl sucks...which makese sense they are
a high production firm not geared around racing. But, the question
remains, was the 40:1 mix so rich and...well. I shouldn't speculate what is going on, because I'm hoping you'll tell me! haha
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Belray says -
The amount of oil can affect it, but the oil's detergency is the biggest contributor to whether there are deposits or not. I would assume that the Stihl oil is probably the base of just what the engine needs to run and nothing more. H1-R uses very clean burning ester base stocks which also contribute to detergency and also has detergency additives on top of that to boost the cleanliness of the oil.
excellent!
so does belray h1r affect combustion? if so, how? you said "typical oils
will not"...belray isn't typical !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
It is typical in that way haha. You'll remember in a previous email I went in to how the H1-R affects the different octane rating measurements. It only affects the octane by a fraction of 1/5 of 1 octane, so it is fairly negligible of an affect on the combustion process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
haha
well that's good!I know one gentlemen wanted me to ask... Ok so he has a regular carb that requires screw driver adjustment H, L, Idle. According to him, and I quote "H1R does seem to burn clean, but it changes the combustion properties of the fuel mix, you have to open up the jets quite a bit to compensate.....
Why does H1R require more fuel than most other 2T oils? The only other oils that leaned out the mixture that much, had some castor oil in it. Is it the solvent in the oil or the oil itself? "
--------------------------------------------------------
belray says -
That is a common occurrence when using H1-R and well understood. Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well.
-------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
stihl ultra syn 40:1 92 eth free after 13 tanks.
----------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
That is some serious buildup on the piston. It may take longer than I originally thought for the H1-R to clear it up, but you should definitely see a difference going forward.
----------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -
that was my friend's piston. I was running 45:1 and mine looks a little better, however I do not have a picture. You can actually gently scrape away some of the black stuff on mine. ...would that indicate he was running to rich of a mix and burning oil? And I'm guessing this wouldn't happen with belray...just proves how much stihl sucks...which makese sense they are
a high production firm not geared around racing. But, the question
remains, was the 40:1 mix so rich and...well. I shouldn't speculate what is going on, because I'm hoping you'll tell me! haha
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -
The amount of oil can affect it, but the oil's detergency is the biggest contributor to whether there are deposits or not. I would assume that the Stihl oil is probably the base of just what the engine needs to run and nothing more. H1-R uses very clean burning ester base stocks which also contribute to detergency and also has detergency additives on top of that to boost the cleanliness of the oil.
bikemike
loud pipes save lives
Id say a 400cc bike pulling a 6 second climb on a 300 foot hill isn't slow response
I'm not buying there response.. you think they are the only two cycle oil maker that doesn't use a diluent?
And how do make the connection between not affecting octane somehow means the oil doesn't effect combustion.
I have used H1R and it's really unremarkable in every way..
And how do make the connection between not affecting octane somehow means the oil doesn't effect combustion.
I have used H1R and it's really unremarkable in every way..
Pretty much EVERYTHING you say is complete and utter crap...... where do you come up with this s&!t?????? You must just make it up as you go.... cracks me up!
Alu
ArboristSite Operative
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2014
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My chainsaw Expert Olav Antonsen, myself and about 90% in nordic people all use aspen 50:1 not mutch build up on piston.. Some in the exhaust port tho. Yes me and Olav both run ported ones without hassle. The aspen fuel is pure and more helty too. No smell inside the van. I know snelling and masterm. probably skreaming now.. 40:1 but that is not awaileble and as wee see not needed.
Olav also hawe a 350ccm Yamaha hot saw ca50hp that runs smooth on same fuel, the cost on fuel you Get used to. If you look up on you tube Olav has a saw withch is two saws interlinked with same crank axel. Must ask if i could try it once
Olav also hawe a 350ccm Yamaha hot saw ca50hp that runs smooth on same fuel, the cost on fuel you Get used to. If you look up on you tube Olav has a saw withch is two saws interlinked with same crank axel. Must ask if i could try it once
Prove it jackass.. your lack of knowledge is appalling..Pretty much EVERYTHING you say is complete and utter crap...... where do you come up with this s&!t?????? You must just make it up as you go.... cracks me up!
That application doesn't really require crisp response..
First off 2 cycle oil and regular motor oil are totally different animals. Regular motor oil does lower octane and cause detonation and preignition. Most 2 cycle oil according to my sources are on the lower burn rate wagon, but there is no real measurable octane difference unless the oil has a octane booster.
Diesel engine fuel has a Cetane rating which is somewhat the opposite effect of what Octane rating is. Cetane is the rating for how much ability the fuel has to self ignite under the pressure and heat formed in a high compresion ratio cylinder. The higher the Cetane rating, the better ability the fuel has to ignite and burn at a constant controlled burn rate. You dont want the octane effect in a Diesel engine, just the opposite.
Cetane= how easy a fuel combusts from compression.
Octane= how well a fuel resists detonation.
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
I just scanned it over quickly.......not focusing on octane.
Could be the whole article is complete ********?
Anyway........I use 87 octane. I add 4 oz of oil. I cut wood.
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
Thanks for taking the time to research all this Julian.
It is very interesting.
It is very interesting.
bikemike
loud pipes save lives
Its not pavement
