661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[porsche965]

So is that 300 RPM within the repeatability of your instrument? How do you know your not chasing a ghost?

So with each test that had more oil you had to lean it out slightly? Was that consistent for each brand of oil?

When can we expect your test uncertainty analysis?

http://asq.org/quality-progress/2014/07/measure-for-measure/calculating-uncertainty.html

Well that was a waste of my time.

 

[Marshy]

Well that was a waste of my time.

??

 

[porsche965]

??

This is a chainsaw forum, not NASA. And I have a very good friend that worked for them years back. And other engineering friends. I'd have to go to school for years to be able to apply such a link to a very intricate problem that may not ever exist.

Bring on some more real world tests or pictures or failures. Keep it simple for a guy like me who never finished high school

 

[Marshy]

This is a chainsaw forum, not NASA. And I have a very good friend that worked for them years back. And other engineering friends. I'd have to go to school for years to be able to apply such a link to a very intricate problem that may not ever exist.

Bring on some more real world tests or pictures or failures. Keep it simple for a guy like me who never finished high school

You dont need to be an engineer to get the take-away from that link. I didnt post it to confuse anyone but could have chosen a better example maybe... I'll sumarize...

"...there are many different statistics and figures of merit used to gauge the quality of measurement data. Of course, the well-accepted statistics of standard deviation and variance are routinely used to determine the variability of measurement data as well as to assign distributions to data to define the likelihood that these data fall within an expected interval or span.

In other words, they show that probability measurement data fall within a range of symmetrical or asymmetrical values, which are normally given in terms of percentages. These statistics are used to gain insight into measurement data. This insight is derived from an ensemble of influencing factors, including:

• Drift between measurement values.
• Measurement setup inconsistencies.
• Ambient environmental changes between measurements.
• Operator control inconsistencies between measurements.
• Operator reading interpretation inconsistencies between measurements.
• Instrumentation resolution rounding inconsistencies.
• Calibration correction errors.
• Instrumentation ranging errors.
• Operating voltage and load fluctuations

These and other influences may contribute to measurement data uncertainty, and limit the data’s usefulness.

It is important that measurement data’s applicability to determine real-life performance of a device being tested and calibrated be qualified."

In other words, there are a lot of factors that need to be taken into account to understand if the data the OP is getting is good or just a bunch of BS (relative to documented experiements). I guess my point is these are things at a real test would account for. Does the OP have to apply all this? No... IMO he's performing an observation more than conducting a test. Therefore, its not a huge suprise that his results dont match documented tests. Take it for what its worth I guess. OP I applaud your persistency.

 

[blsnelling]

His findings match what Stihl has found.

 

[bwalker]

So when you don't find Google usefull enough to support your sarcastic position(s), your fallback position is to throw insults.

And your fallback position is to immerse yourself in ignorance. Maybe you should have took some science courses instead of making bongs in wood shop. Because if you did, you would the quickly realize this test is a joke.

 

[bwalker]

Bwalker- do you have any videos or personal testing that we could use to compare that H1R is an oil not to use? I think that opinions from a manufacturer would be more biased than real world experiences with oils and mixes. At least to me, and obviously to the rest of us that doubt, isn't that why we are on this thread lol? Yours would be appreciated.

Lot's of Professionals feed their families with factory oils at 50:1 daily, year in and year out.

Does anyone have any videos or personal tests that they have conducted that support their personal choice and why? Other than erring on the side of perhaps the "way more oil is safe theory." What is amazing is how few, if any, actual pictures or videos show a complete seizure. Not just some hot photos or almost failed situations. Real failures from not enough oil.

Using more oil than necessary is like never driving your truck over 45mph in fear of the brakes failing....

I have already provided pictures. When I step in crap I don't typically video it...

 

[Trx250r180]

You dont need to be an engineer to get the take-away from that link. I didnt post it to confuse anyone but could have chosen a better example maybe... I'll sumarize...

"...there are many different statistics and figures of merit used to gauge the quality of measurement data. Of course, the well-accepted statistics of standard deviation and variance are routinely used to determine the variability of measurement data as well as to assign distributions to data to define the likelihood that these data fall within an expected interval or span.

In other words, they show that probability measurement data fall within a range of symmetrical or asymmetrical values, which are normally given in terms of percentages. These statistics are used to gain insight into measurement data. This insight is derived from an ensemble of influencing factors, including:

• Drift between measurement values.
• Measurement setup inconsistencies.
• Ambient environmental changes between measurements.
• Operator control inconsistencies between measurements.
• Operator reading interpretation inconsistencies between measurements.
• Instrumentation resolution rounding inconsistencies.
• Calibration correction errors.
• Instrumentation ranging errors.
• Operating voltage and load fluctuations

These and other influences may contribute to measurement data uncertainty, and limit the data’s usefulness.

It is important that measurement data’s applicability to determine real-life performance of a device being tested and calibrated be qualified."

In other words, there are a lot of factors that need to be taken into account to understand if the data the OP is getting is good or just a bunch of BS (relative to documented experiements). I guess my point is these are things at a real test would account for. Does the OP have to apply all this? No... IMO he's performing an observation more than conducting a test. Therefore, its not a huge suprise that his results dont match documented tests. Take it for what its worth I guess. OP I applaud your persistency.

I am not saying there is not a lot of holes in this type of testing ,but i think i read somewhere back the op stated he was just seeing how "his" saws reacted to 2 different oils ,and thought i saw somewhere he did not say anyone elses saw would be the same going by his tests ,he was just sharing what worked on his particular models in the type of wood he was cutting ,yes tuning ,mods etc will change things or type of wood ,I myself was stuck on 32 to 1 h1r because that is all i knew for the last few years ,i would mix gas and cut wood ,I did take in someone said it was filthy ,which i never thought about it that way because my pistons were fairly clean ,but i did have a lot of black spooge from the h1r ,i tried another brand of oil this weekend ,and my plug was cleaner ,not all black like the h1r leaves it ,and the oil on the piston was not showing black soot like the h1r does ,so without this thread i would not have most likely stepped out of my comfort zone on oil and tried something else .I also tried 32 to 1 and 40 to 1 in my saws with the new brand ,the 40 to 1 left a nice coat of oil on the piston still with the new brand and the plug was a nice golden brown and dry ,and my throttle response improved a lot at the same time over the 32 to 1 in "my" saw .I still have to put some more hours on this brand to say if i like it better or not ,but so far i like it,My weedeater likes it too better than the h1r if that matters lol .

 

[Marshy]

His findings match what Stihl has found.

Have they made their results accesible to the public? Got link?

 

[blsnelling]

Not to my knowledge. This came from a Gold certified mechanic whose son did his engineering internship with Stihl in Virginia Beach.

 

[KenJax Tree]

I am not saying there is not a lot of holes in this type of testing ,but i think i read somewhere back the op stated he was just seeing how "his" saws reacted to 2 different oils ,and thought i saw somewhere he did not say anyone elses saw would be the same going by his tests ,he was just sharing what worked on his particular models in the type of wood he was cutting ,yes tuning ,mods etc will change things or type of wood ,I myself was stuck on 32 to 1 h1r because that is all i knew for the last few years ,i would mix gas and cut wood ,I did take in someone said it was filthy ,which i never thought about it that way because my pistons were fairly clean ,but i did have a lot of black spooge from the h1r ,i tried another brand of oil this weekend ,and my plug was cleaner ,not all black like the h1r leaves it ,and the oil on the piston was not showing black soot like the h1r does ,so without this thread i would not have most likely stepped out of my comfort zone on oil and tried something else .I also tried 32 to 1 and 40 to 1 in my saws with the new brand ,the 40 to 1 left a nice coat of oil on the piston still with the new brand and the plug was a nice golden brown and dry ,and my throttle response improved a lot at the same time over the 32 to 1 in "my" saw .I still have to put some more hours on this brand to say if i like it better or not ,but so far i like it,My weedeater likes it too better than the h1r if that matters lol .

What oil did you use this weekend?

 

[Marshy]

Not to my knowledge. This came from a Gold certified mechanic whose son did his engineering internship with Stihl in Virginia Beach.

Seems like hearsay to me since Stihl recommends 50:1 on their web site...

 

[blsnelling]

Seems like hearsay to me since Stihl recommends 50:1 on their web site...

Same findings. Stihl has found that 32:1 burns hotter than 50:1 and makes less power. I'm going to try 40:1 myself.

 

[Trx250r180]

What oil did you use this weekend?

It is sold by a company not far from here called Dumonde Tech ,the bike shops here stock it ,not sure if it is everywhere though .It is a gold color so the gas looks pretty clear pouring it in the saw ,when i pulled the muffler cover i could see clean gold oil on the piston .

Here are the specs ,Similar to what i found with the clean burning ,and improved throttle response .They say common mix 40 to 1 which is where i ended up .
http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/dtp-synthetic-racing-oil/

 

[redbull660]

because I didn't take exact note of how much the screwdriver actually turned over the course of the test? it wasn't enough to alarm me to like whoa that is a lot...ie like on the 361. That is the only concern I had regarding the exact degree of screw driver turn! omg lol But since some of you seem super concerned about the EXACT amount of movement we'll check it...cuz now im curious.


some more emails to belray...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

Morning Sir. couple more...


Was H1R reformulated recently?


I noticed on the H1R MSDS that it reads "this product considered not hazardous" So what exactly does that mean? Would it mean that, I would breathing less carcinogenic/toxic air when running my saw?

**note - for AS post. "this produce considered not hazardous" ...this was the ONLY oil in the list that had no hazardous chemicals in the oil. List - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oil-test-32-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

Anyway I thought that was impressive...interesting.

So I've evaluated different mix ratios of H1R as far as speed/time, temps and consistency in temps. But what actual signs ...what should I be seeing? What should the top of the piston look like? The exhaust port? The inside of the muffler? Outside the muffler exit port? Side of the piston and rings?

Thank you.
---------------------------------------------

Belray response -

Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.


The health statement means that none of the formula ingredients cause things like cancer or other acute or chronic health problems. That does only apply to the product as is though. Once it is burned, its health implications can change, but to start out with safe chemicals, you are certainly more likely to end up with safer fumes. That being said I would not recommend hooking up a snorkel to the exhaust haha.


The piston should either have a very thin layer of oil on it or just look clean. You may get a little bit of graying, but as long as it doesn’t build up then you are in good shape. Pitting of any of the surfaces would also be an indication of a problem. The exhaust port you just want to make sure that the edges aren’t wearing. The inside of the muffler, typically if the muffler has any packing it is not uncommon for the packing to be slightly damp with oil. If it isn’t packed, the muffler usually won’t have oil in it because of the heat, but the surface should be pretty clean. The thing to look out for is rust in the muffler. On the exit port to the muffler, its rust again, if there is rust there, you may want to check further to make sure it isn’t any deeper. The sides of the piston, the rings and the cylinder wall should not have obvious localized wear marks (ie, scoring). If you see obvious lines and especially if you can feel them, then you are getting some serious wear and heading toward trouble. There is a difference between scuffing and scoring though. Scuff marks are usually wider parallel lines and light scuffing can be fairly normal and usually does not escalate. The ring’s outer surface should be smooth without any burs or jagged edges. You may get darkening of the piston skirt surfaces that look almost like they are burnt, but that is not necessarily a problem. As long as there is no buildup it should be ok. A thin layer of oil is usually a good sign though in that you are definitely protecting the surfaces. Excessive oil should be obvious and the solution, as you know, is simple.


Another thing I just want to emphasize again is that I do not know enough about saws to be an “expert” and I don’t pretend to be one. All of that is based off my experience with 2-strokes in general, so some of it may be off base. If something about what I say seems fishy, please feel free to question it.

 

[Moparmyway]

And your fallback position is to immerse yourself in ignorance. Maybe you should have took some science courses instead of making bongs in wood shop. Because if you did, you would the quickly realize this test is a joke.

Redbulls test is not the subject here. Quit trying to deflect
Here, I helped you .............

Here is what I believe happens ...........
The incoming mix of atomized fuel/oil meets the hot piston and cylinder wall. Some of that atomized fuel/oil mix is vaporized when it hits the hot piston/cylinder wall ; which cools the piston and cylinder wall (latent heat and change of state principles)

The hotter the piston and cylinder wall is, more of the atomized fuel that is vaporized.

Most of the different vapors do combust, but at different rates than the atomized charge.

This is where additional fuel is needed to prevent the engine from leaning out due to the increased vaporization of fuel/oil charge, necessitating more atomized fuel to combust properly.


OK, I doused my clothes with fire retardant, so let the flaming begin !!!!!!

The vast majority of the atomized fuel entering the engine vaporises as soon as it enters the motor during normal operation and your description of what happens is spot on. The main reason a two stroke smokes alot at start up is because the engine isn't warm enough and liquid fuel makes it to the combustion chamber where it doesn't fully combust. So your theory is incorrect.

What does WA stand for ?
How does "liquid fuel" get to be liquid after the carb and its venturi atomizes it ?
Lets just pretend that your "liquid" theory is correct ............... if it were liquid, you would hydraulic lock the motor.
So your theory is incorrect

First its "liquid fuel", now you are backpeddaling to "liquid droplets"

definition of atomized is; to reduce to tiny particles or fine spray .......... lets see how many more posts it takes you to clarify how your "liquid fuel doesn't fully combust" in an engine that isn't warm enough ..........NOBODY said anything about a 2 cycle smoking on startup ....we all know how the choke works........ the discussion is centered on how a 2 cycle runs leaner when it gets real hot; like milling compared to normal operation

You said that my theory was incorrect and are trying to use a cold motor at startup as your basis ?

Nothing like a deflection to attempt to make yourself look good, unless; if you get caught, of course.

Atomised, liquid droplet, mist.. its all the same thing. Fuel in its liquid state before it vaporizes ie turns into a gas...
And your theory is incorrect because what you describe happens in a normally functioin motor all the time.

Its NOT all the same thing

Yes and yes. Where you are incorrect is linking this to an increased demand for fuel under load.

And this is where you go off the tracks. In a normaly running motor at normal operating temp most all of the fuel is vaporised. Under heavy load you may vaporise the very small amount fuel that typically isn't vaporised, but this would make the motor go rich, not lean.

This is where YOU go off the tracks and back into your own world

Then please explain why I need more fuel to keep cool when milling

Crickets dude ................. nothing but crickets, probably due to Google running out of info for you.

 

[bwalker]

Redbulls test is not the subject here. Quit trying to deflect
Here, I helped you .............









Its NOT all the same thing




This is where YOU go off the tracks and back into your own world


Crickets dude ................. nothing but crickets, probably due to Google running out of info for you.

Liquid is liquid.. numb skull. And your theory us complete crap. Anyone with any knowledge of two cycles knows that.

 

[bwalker]

because I didn't take exact note of how much the screwdriver actually turned over the course of the test? it wasn't enough to alarm me to like whoa that is a lot...ie like on the 361. That is the only concern I had regarding the exact degree of screw driver turn! omg lol But since some of you seem super concerned about the EXACT amount of movement we'll check it...cuz now im curious.


some more emails to belray...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

Morning Sir. couple more...


Was H1R reformulated recently?


I noticed on the H1R MSDS that it reads "this product considered not hazardous" So what exactly does that mean? Would it mean that, I would breathing less carcinogenic/toxic air when running my saw?

**note - for AS post. "this produce considered not hazardous" ...this was the ONLY oil in the list that had no hazardous chemicals in the oil. List - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oil-test-32-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

Anyway I thought that was impressive...interesting.

So I've evaluated different mix ratios of H1R as far as speed/time, temps and consistency in temps. But what actual signs ...what should I be seeing? What should the top of the piston look like? The exhaust port? The inside of the muffler? Outside the muffler exit port? Side of the piston and rings?

Thank you.
---------------------------------------------

Belray response -

Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.


The health statement means that none of the formula ingredients cause things like cancer or other acute or chronic health problems. That does only apply to the product as is though. Once it is burned, its health implications can change, but to start out with safe chemicals, you are certainly more likely to end up with safer fumes. That being said I would not recommend hooking up a snorkel to the exhaust haha.


The piston should either have a very thin layer of oil on it or just look clean. You may get a little bit of graying, but as long as it doesn’t build up then you are in good shape. Pitting of any of the surfaces would also be an indication of a problem. The exhaust port you just want to make sure that the edges aren’t wearing. The inside of the muffler, typically if the muffler has any packing it is not uncommon for the packing to be slightly damp with oil. If it isn’t packed, the muffler usually won’t have oil in it because of the heat, but the surface should be pretty clean. The thing to look out for is rust in the muffler. On the exit port to the muffler, its rust again, if there is rust there, you may want to check further to make sure it isn’t any deeper. The sides of the piston, the rings and the cylinder wall should not have obvious localized wear marks (ie, scoring). If you see obvious lines and especially if you can feel them, then you are getting some serious wear and heading toward trouble. There is a difference between scuffing and scoring though. Scuff marks are usually wider parallel lines and light scuffing can be fairly normal and usually does not escalate. The ring’s outer surface should be smooth without any burs or jagged edges. You may get darkening of the piston skirt surfaces that look almost like they are burnt, but that is not necessarily a problem. As long as there is no buildup it should be ok. A thin layer of oil is usually a good sign though in that you are definitely protecting the surfaces. Excessive oil should be obvious and the solution, as you know, is simple.


Another thing I just want to emphasize again is that I do not know enough about saws to be an “expert” and I don’t pretend to be one. All of that is based off my experience with 2-strokes in general, so some of it may be off base. If something about what I say seems fishy, please feel free to question it.

What two cycle oils contain carcinoges?
The "techy" is dead wrong in what a piston should look like and this can be verified from a variety of sources..

 

[Moparmyway]

Liquid is liquid.. numb skull. And your theory us complete crap. Anyone with any knowledge of two cycles knows that.

Here we go again, name calling instead of educating me
Educate me about how your liquid vaporizes and burns as vapors in the combustion chamber, not as atomized particles of fuel.
You are happy to point the errors of us, then educate us in your long winded diatribes
Please take the time to be productive and explain how liquid and vapor relate to how when I am milling with my 90cc saw, the hotter motor (should be going rich according to you) needs more fuel; like we all see and commonly know

Don't need any links, just use your own words

 

[bwalker]

Not to my knowledge. This came from a Gold certified mechanic whose son did his engineering internship with Stihl in Virginia Beach.

The devil is in the details.
How much hotter? Wouldnt it stand to reason that if the engine was making more HP it may also run hotter. And adding lower oil to fuel ratios has been documented to produce more HP.