Certified Tree Risk Assessor
- Thread starter Mike Cantolina
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Hey buddy I didn't come here for a soap opera so if you have some knowledge to share on this subject from all your self proclaimed certs and shigo readings then please do so, otherwise it all BS to me.
No way man. Treeman is many steps above lawn jockey, some of us just haven't reached the official Arborist plateau yet. I still retain hope for myself one day though!
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
r
Hey buddy, where you have added ANY knowledge on this subject yourself.
"Hinged" or "Shifted" my azz, you little hick.
Hey buddy, where you have added ANY knowledge on this subject yourself.
"Hinged" or "Shifted" my azz, you little hick.
Well Vet...........I am a CA & have many other certs/Licenses to add to my dosea of tree work!.......first off the cert we are speaking of is absolutely a money making bag of crap! Treeseer would save a corpse, put lipstick on it & say look "mission accomplished" & much like Bush........he along with others are caught with their heads in the crease of a Cert givers azz.
The fact people would even consider this as a certification is laughable!! I could see as a CEU or a domain in future CA testing? But a stand alone Cert..............NO! there is a point of ridiculous & a point where Licensing, skills & continuing education should make up the field & I prefer the latter, I have seen people waste their money on certs only to be layed off while others with nothing remain......Now another cert with promise of big money career choices....LOL
Tree risk Assessor........look at the base word in there will ya!
LXT...............
treeclimber101
UNCLE BUCK
I am not upset , you know that I got mad crazy stupid love for your ol' wrinkly azz , I am all for the new LTE testing here in joisey and will be studying my fat azz off to make ya proud .... I just hope your here to see the pics of me ....
Lol. This really is a tough crowd. At least we try and keep it real though!
treemandan
Tree Freak
I wanted to ask you guys who have studied for or taken the exam if any of the material covered trees uprooting on hill/creek sides?
I've already agreed on removing x amount of trees here because they've had two trees uproot and hit buildings. How would a Certified Tree Risk Assessor approach a job like this?
To me it just seems like what goes up must come down, this risk assement course deals very spefically in timing.
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
Is the assessor able to predict when a tree is going to fail?
Sounds like a black art. Timing is everything, lol.
How about some common sense here.
Abate the hazard by removing the suspect trees, or stay awake at night worrying everytime you get lots of rain and high winds.
The leaning trees are going to eventually come down either due to root/ground/shear failures.
You remove X, Y, Z trees and decide to leave T, U, & V. What happens to that client/contractor relationship when V uproots and hits a building?
Sounds like a black art. Timing is everything, lol.
How about some common sense here.
Abate the hazard by removing the suspect trees, or stay awake at night worrying everytime you get lots of rain and high winds.
The leaning trees are going to eventually come down either due to root/ground/shear failures.
You remove X, Y, Z trees and decide to leave T, U, & V. What happens to that client/contractor relationship when V uproots and hits a building?
superjunior
Addicted to ArboristSite
that's what I was thinking, seams pretty obvious from the pics
Shaun Bowler
ArboristSite Operative
I feel that being a Certified Arborist has become equal to a Certified Crossing Guard.
When we took the CA test was'nt all this stuff covered?
I am a CTW as well.
If the ISA, or our industry, wants to raise the bar on "Professionalism" then all tree care "Certified" should be Certified Tree Workers First
When we took the CA test was'nt all this stuff covered?
I am a CTW as well.
If the ISA, or our industry, wants to raise the bar on "Professionalism" then all tree care "Certified" should be Certified Tree Workers First
This kind of fearmongering statement is very common, but unfortunately lacks sense, because it lacks other abatement options, like pruning, guying, root invigoration, etc. Try this work; you'll like it. :msp_thumbup: The OP trees are newly "edge" trees because the land was cleared before the house was built; now the occupants blame the trees for the problems. They are idiots, but arborists have no such excuses. Tree guys would know better with a little education. 10-20% reduced from those sprawling leaders would reduce risk significantly. Why wasn't pruning in the conversation, Mike?
Also, the statements above about the folks who wrote and administer that course being lazy asses who don't know tree work is also nonsense. I know the guy who wrote the course well, and most of the present instructors (no creases thanks :eek2
, and they ALL were doing physical work like takedowns when some of these AS sack-swingers were still in diapers. We may be older now, and making as much per hour consulting as a full crew breaking their backs, and machines, but don't be hating us for that--Join us! I have never seen a market where a well-trained arborist could not make a good living focusing on consulting arboriculture, instead of removalism. an example fyi:This Quercus phellos measured 113 inches in circumference at breast height and is a significant risk. Visual inspection of the lower trunk on the sidewalk side of the tree revealed a large, relatively fresh, vertical crack.
At the top of this crack is a black growth resembling a fungal fruiting body. Coupled with the hollow soundings produced 360° by our rubber hammer, this indicates the progression of interior decay towards the bark. The crack suggests the tree is not walling off decay well and that there may not be enough of a reliable shell of wood near the crack to support the tree in an extreme weather event. We also noted fungal infections adjacent to pruning wounds in the canopy, which also indicates the spread of decay. The pruning wounds do not appear to be closing.
View attachment 204171
Seven reasons we needed not climb the tree to inspect this area, left to right:
1. Large branch over the road, visibly decayed back to a node near the trunk. This area has a concentration of chemicals and structures that make it a branch/bud protection zone. It is also “hot spot”, in the Zone of Rapid Taper. Considering the Town’s short pruning cycle of 1-2 years, the size of the branch and the extent of decay are significant.
2. Apparent saprophytic fungus (which grows on tissue that is already dead), perhaps Stereum sp., is spreading towards a similar “hot spot” node on a branch facing west.
3. Recent pruning wound being attacked by this fungus.
4. Nearby pruning wound not closing.
5. The most recent pruning wound is also not closing.
6. Apparent parasitic fungus (which grows in living wood), resembling Polyporus, grows on included bark between this wound and the largest branch/leader in this midstem area
7. Upward-pointing structure above the fungus advancing up this leader might be loose bark affected by decay.
Fig 1.1 Roots girdling and scarred. East view. Fig. 1-2 Girdling root disrupts circulation. north view
If only one or two of these signs of disease or symptoms of tree response to disease were evident, closer inspection and precise identification of pathogens may be warranted. In total, they point to interior decay and poor condition, beyond any mitigation. Removal should be strongly considered. The sooner the tree is removed, the quicker a replacement tree can be installed and begin establishing its roots.
MANAGEMENT OPTIONS
The other trees with visible fungal fruiting bodies or audible hollows noted should be assessed with a noninvasive decay-detection instrument such as a tomograph. The extent of decay will indicate potential mitigation, such as how much and where they should be pruned, for health and safety. Vines and other growth should be kept clear of the stems of all the trees to permit inspection. Mulch should be spread near—not on—the trunks, to prevent further damage by and to lawnmowers.
The primary problem these trees have is root damage during work on curbs and sidewalks. The upcoming final report will include appendices describing ways of maintaining safe walking surfaces and adequate water direction while minimizing impacts to the trees. For now we recommend the City of cease any further pavement works adjacent to significant trees until City staff, including Streets and Grounds, is familiar with all reasonable options for these works, and with relevant industry standards and references.
This concludes our preliminary report. We can clarify any portions of it upon request.
Sincerely Yours,
ISA Board-Certified Master Arborist #xx-0284
Certified Municipal and Utility Arborist and Climbing Specialist
Mike Cantolina
Addicted to ArboristSite
Actually, this particular owner is very reluctant to remove trees. Pruning will be discussed after removals. I recommended 11 removals which 4 were already done before I took the pics. That leaves seven more to do. Yes, I based this decision on experience and common sense. I'm always anxious for more knowledge though.
Mike Cantolina
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm mistaken, 5 were already done leaving 6 more to do.
Why wait? Owners needed to know about pruning options before getting removal quote. The ones left look like 1 day's worth of pruning, 2 men, pack the brush on the slope to slow erosion and improve root stability. No chipper required.
The removal approach increases erosion and lessens stability of the remaining trees. If there's no climber or aerial lift access or the pole tools to make those cuts, find a sub, or buy 'em.
Del, directional pruning has been done for decades; the trees can grow larger AND more stable; 3-5 year cycle, forever. Owner keeps a growing asset, you have steady work. Of course if felling every 30-40 years is what you and the owner want, fine. You don't need to be as logical a scientist as John Galt to figure that one out. Eddie Withers would know it right away.
View attachment 204186
The growth habits of individual tree species within the local environment were considered in order to develop the following pruning specifications.
"Pruning shall be done in accordance with ANSI A300 (Part 1) Pruning." Work procedures will follow the requirements (indicated by the word "shall") and recommendations (indicated by the word "should") of the ANSI A300 Part 1 Pruning standards. Note: On occasion, the arborist is allowed to deviate from a recommendation based on the unique needs of a particular job, tree species, or work site.
1. Tree(s) to be pruned: ______________________________________________________________
2. State Pruning Objective(s).
Risk reduction, increase stability and lessen risk of uprooting _____________________________________________________________________
Manage Health, explain: _____________________________________________________________________
Clearance, explain___________________________________________________________________________
Structural Improvement/correction, explain:_____Edge trees—restore symmetry_________________
View improvement, explain:___________________________________________________________________
Aesthetic improvement, explain________________________________________________________________
Restoration, explain: Restore stability lost when adjacent trees were removed to clear room for house_______
Structural, explain___________________________________________________________________________
Other, explain______________________________________________________________________________
3. Select Pruning Method(s) and Create Specification(s) to accomplish the objective(s). (Italicized fields are required.)
Clean (Pruning to remove one or more of the following non-beneficial parts: dead, diseased, and/or broken branches).
Location: _________________________
Size range of parts to be removed: ____1” and above______________
Other: _________________________
Raise (Selective pruning to provide vertical clearance).
Clearance distance:_________________________
Location: _________________________
Size range of parts to be removed: _________________________
Other: _________________________
Reduce (Selective pruning to decrease height and/or spread).
Location/Clearance: Branches sprawling toward building-<20% off, -_______________________
Size range of parts to be removed: 1-3” cuts; up to 15’ off_________________________
Other: _________________________
Thin (Selective pruning to reduce density of live branches).
Location: _________________________
Percentage of foliage to be removed: _________________________
Other: _________________________
4. Specialty Pruning
Restoration (Selective pruning to redevelop structure, form, and appearance of severely pruned, vandalized, or damaged trees.)
Size range of parts to be removed: _________________________
Location: _________________________
Percentage of sprouts to be removed: _________________________
Other: _________________________
Vista/View (Pruning shall consist of the use of one or more pruning methods(types) to enhance a specific line of sight.)
Pruning Methods(s) to be used: _________________________
Size range of parts to be removed: _________________________
Location: _________________________
Percentage of foliage to be removed: _________________________
Other: _________________________
SAMPLE PRUNING SPECIFICATIONS
#1. Scope:
Objective: • Leaning trees on hillside
Enhance structural stability and symmetry; minimize lean, decay, weak attachments, and heavy ends.
Specifications: General: All pruning shall be completed in compliance with A300 and Z133.1 Standards.
Detail: Remove all dead branches >1”.
Reduce all overextended branches back to a favorable lateral, or to the origin. Reduce rubbing or decayed or cracked branches to restore symmetry and maximize collection of sunlight.
No more than 20% removed from each tree with 1-3” cuts
Cmon guys this is basic stuff.
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mattfr12
The Bulldog
I really like that idea tresser and have tried to sell it myself a few times i just wish the general public had an appreciation for trees like i do or most other people on this site they usualy want them just cut down and its hard to talk them out of it. sometimes if you keep pressing them they just give the job to someone else.
example i got a call to remove a 70 foot red oak i mean this tree was beautiful no rot to be seen perfectly straight. but they wanted it out. i tried selling reduction like that tried pushing cableing on them. explained to them what it takes to get a tree like that. but in the end they said they dont wanna rake the leaves or what them on thier new roof. so we ended up doing it i mean this tree was so healthy and stout well over 60" at the base. i finally got to use my 3/4 inch rope and the hobbs device it would take one hell of a shock load.
i agree with you on the idea ive been in buisness long enough where im finally getting paid again to work on the same trees some on thier 2nd and 3rd time.
example i got a call to remove a 70 foot red oak i mean this tree was beautiful no rot to be seen perfectly straight. but they wanted it out. i tried selling reduction like that tried pushing cableing on them. explained to them what it takes to get a tree like that. but in the end they said they dont wanna rake the leaves or what them on thier new roof. so we ended up doing it i mean this tree was so healthy and stout well over 60" at the base. i finally got to use my 3/4 inch rope and the hobbs device it would take one hell of a shock load.
i agree with you on the idea ive been in buisness long enough where im finally getting paid again to work on the same trees some on thier 2nd and 3rd time.
If what the majority of you are saying that "what goes up must come down" and "the tree will eventually come down so why not take it down now" then anyone could be an arborist including johnyonenut working at the turd factory. It takes alot of expertise to come to that conclusion.
I get reall bored with the same old #### of the everyday removal grind, it's like working in a factory same #### different day. I need to learn new things in order to keep myself from going insane. This a subject I find interesting and want to learn more about. I'm sick of hearing the broken record some of you guys spew out your trap door just because your stuck where your at and refuse to better yourself doesn't mean everyone else feels the same way. Go take your negative crap somewhere else you miserable SOB.
Oh yeah and polerus I'll take "hick" as a compliment coming from your mouth Mr Ontario! Blah Ha Ha Ha!
I get reall bored with the same old #### of the everyday removal grind, it's like working in a factory same #### different day. I need to learn new things in order to keep myself from going insane. This a subject I find interesting and want to learn more about. I'm sick of hearing the broken record some of you guys spew out your trap door just because your stuck where your at and refuse to better yourself doesn't mean everyone else feels the same way. Go take your negative crap somewhere else you miserable SOB.
Oh yeah and polerus I'll take "hick" as a compliment coming from your mouth Mr Ontario! Blah Ha Ha Ha!
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
"This kind of fearmongering statement is very common, but unfortunately lacks sense, because it lacks other abatement options, like pruning, guying, root invigoration, etc."
The rationale used by some municipalities to NOT brace and cable trees is that doing same acknowledges the tree poses a hazard in the first place, or such work would not be unnecessary. The cabled tree subsequently fails, and then what? Are you telling me that getting caught up in a litigation battle is worth this hassle?
More common sense is involved here than fearmongering.
I'd like to hear more about root invigoration. Seems that invigorating a leaning edge tree on the side of a creek might not be such a great idea, imo. How much is guying/pruning gonna cost as opposed to removals? There is not just one magnificent heritage specimen tree that is being discussed in this particular situation.
If these abatement options are done, I have to imagine an explicit disclaimer will be attached to the contract not holding the arborist responsible if and when the tree fails at some point in the future.
The rationale used by some municipalities to NOT brace and cable trees is that doing same acknowledges the tree poses a hazard in the first place, or such work would not be unnecessary. The cabled tree subsequently fails, and then what? Are you telling me that getting caught up in a litigation battle is worth this hassle?
More common sense is involved here than fearmongering.
I'd like to hear more about root invigoration. Seems that invigorating a leaning edge tree on the side of a creek might not be such a great idea, imo. How much is guying/pruning gonna cost as opposed to removals? There is not just one magnificent heritage specimen tree that is being discussed in this particular situation.
If these abatement options are done, I have to imagine an explicit disclaimer will be attached to the contract not holding the arborist responsible if and when the tree fails at some point in the future.
"The rationale used by some municipalities to NOT brace and cable trees is that doing same acknowledges the tree poses a hazard in the first place, or such work would not be unnecessary. The cabled tree subsequently fails, and then what?" ever been to daytona beach?
attached.View attachment 204200
" How much is guying/pruning gonna cost as opposed to removals?"
One day 2 men, as noted. no guying on this needed imo, tho it would buy extra insurance for the really scared client.
"There is not just one magnificent heritage specimen tree that is being discussed in this particular situation."
No,, but there are many in the making, if arborists train them.
"If these abatement options are done, I have to imagine an explicit disclaimer will be attached to the contract not holding the arborist responsible if and when the tree fails at some point in the future"
A variation of this goes on most contracts. note #10:
ASSUMPTIONS AND LIMITING CONDITIONS
1. Any legal description provided to the consultant/appraiser is assumed to be correct. Any titles and ownerships to any property are assumed to be good and marketable. No responsibility is assumed for matters legal in character. Any and all property is appraised or evaluated as though free and clear, under responsible ownership and competent management.
2. It is assumed that any property is not in violation of any applicable codes, ordinances, statutes, or other governmental regulations.
3. Care has been taken to obtain all information from reliable sources. All data has been verified insofar as possible; however, the consultant/appraiser can neither guarantee nor be responsible for the accuracy of information provided by others.
4. The consultant/appraiser shall not be required to give testimony or to attend court by reason of this report unless subsequent contractual arrangements are made, including payment of an additional fee for such services as described in the fee schedule and contract of engagement.
5. Loss or alteration of any part of this part of this report invalidates the entire report.
6. Possession of this report or a copy thereof does not imply right of publication or use for any purpose by any other than the person to whom it is addressed, without the prior express written or verbal consent of the consultant/appraiser.
7. Neither all nor any part of the contents of this report, nor copy thereof, shall be conveyed by anyone, including the client, to the public through advertising, public relations, news, sales or other media, without the prior expressed written or verbal consent of the consultant/appraiser -- particularly as to value conclusions, identity of the consultant/appraiser, or any reference to any professional society or institute or to any initialed designation conferred upon the consultant/appraiser as stated in his qualifications.
8. This report and any values expressed herein represent the opinion of the consultant/appraiser, and the consultant's/ appraiser's fee is in no way contingent upon the reporting of a specified value, a stipulated result, the occurrence of a subsequent event, nor upon any finding to be reported.
9. Sketches, diagrams, graphs, and photographs in this report, being intended as visual aids, are not necessarily to scale and should not be construed as engineering or architectural reports or surveys.
10. Unless expressed otherwise: 1) information contained in this report covers only those items that were examined and reflects the condition of those items at the time of inspection; and 2) the inspection is limited to visual examination of accessible items without dissection, excavation, probing, or coring. There is no warranty or guarantee, expressed or implied, that problems or deficiencies of the plants or property in question may not arise in the future.
this is basic arbo; DO IT NOW!
attached.View attachment 204200
" How much is guying/pruning gonna cost as opposed to removals?"
One day 2 men, as noted. no guying on this needed imo, tho it would buy extra insurance for the really scared client.
"There is not just one magnificent heritage specimen tree that is being discussed in this particular situation."
No,, but there are many in the making, if arborists train them.
"If these abatement options are done, I have to imagine an explicit disclaimer will be attached to the contract not holding the arborist responsible if and when the tree fails at some point in the future"
A variation of this goes on most contracts. note #10:
ASSUMPTIONS AND LIMITING CONDITIONS
1. Any legal description provided to the consultant/appraiser is assumed to be correct. Any titles and ownerships to any property are assumed to be good and marketable. No responsibility is assumed for matters legal in character. Any and all property is appraised or evaluated as though free and clear, under responsible ownership and competent management.
2. It is assumed that any property is not in violation of any applicable codes, ordinances, statutes, or other governmental regulations.
3. Care has been taken to obtain all information from reliable sources. All data has been verified insofar as possible; however, the consultant/appraiser can neither guarantee nor be responsible for the accuracy of information provided by others.
4. The consultant/appraiser shall not be required to give testimony or to attend court by reason of this report unless subsequent contractual arrangements are made, including payment of an additional fee for such services as described in the fee schedule and contract of engagement.
5. Loss or alteration of any part of this part of this report invalidates the entire report.
6. Possession of this report or a copy thereof does not imply right of publication or use for any purpose by any other than the person to whom it is addressed, without the prior express written or verbal consent of the consultant/appraiser.
7. Neither all nor any part of the contents of this report, nor copy thereof, shall be conveyed by anyone, including the client, to the public through advertising, public relations, news, sales or other media, without the prior expressed written or verbal consent of the consultant/appraiser -- particularly as to value conclusions, identity of the consultant/appraiser, or any reference to any professional society or institute or to any initialed designation conferred upon the consultant/appraiser as stated in his qualifications.
8. This report and any values expressed herein represent the opinion of the consultant/appraiser, and the consultant's/ appraiser's fee is in no way contingent upon the reporting of a specified value, a stipulated result, the occurrence of a subsequent event, nor upon any finding to be reported.
9. Sketches, diagrams, graphs, and photographs in this report, being intended as visual aids, are not necessarily to scale and should not be construed as engineering or architectural reports or surveys.
10. Unless expressed otherwise: 1) information contained in this report covers only those items that were examined and reflects the condition of those items at the time of inspection; and 2) the inspection is limited to visual examination of accessible items without dissection, excavation, probing, or coring. There is no warranty or guarantee, expressed or implied, that problems or deficiencies of the plants or property in question may not arise in the future.
this is basic arbo; DO IT NOW!
treemandan
Tree Freak
When all is said and done there is a whole lot more said than done.
I am sure there is something to be gotten from this assement course. It may be like that project mananger course I took where I thought we were back in first grade with the elementary stuff they were talking about. To be certified?
In a situation like Mike C posted its easy to get what Mr. Corbin what saying. Sure, options are present in most situations, they should be discussed.
Fear mongering is something so easy to do one may not realize he just did it. Sometime its little far fetched: one time I said " Well this one missed ya, it kinda looks like the next one will kill you in yer sleep." It was a possibility.
And sometime I look at a thing and immediatly the only way I want to handle it is to chop it the #### down just to get to end whatever debates that would confuse the situation.
SAV A TREE?
I am sure there is something to be gotten from this assement course. It may be like that project mananger course I took where I thought we were back in first grade with the elementary stuff they were talking about. To be certified?
In a situation like Mike C posted its easy to get what Mr. Corbin what saying. Sure, options are present in most situations, they should be discussed.
Fear mongering is something so easy to do one may not realize he just did it. Sometime its little far fetched: one time I said " Well this one missed ya, it kinda looks like the next one will kill you in yer sleep." It was a possibility.
And sometime I look at a thing and immediatly the only way I want to handle it is to chop it the #### down just to get to end whatever debates that would confuse the situation.
SAV A TREE?
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