Changing Oil Mix Ratios - Do I Have To Re-Tune?

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It’s discussed on every forum if it’s necessary to tune if you change your mix ratio. Some firmly believe yes - changing mix ratios (50:1 to 40:1 to 32:2 etc) will require a re-tune - more oil = less fuel. They say you can go as far as to seize the engine, others say they just run really poorly if you don’t.

On the other hand, the other group of people don’t think it will make any difference. It’s a change of 1%-2%. It may change the rpm very slightly, but certainly nothing that will cause the average user anything to worry about.

I decided to test the theory - “do you have to retune an engine, if the only variable is changing the mix ratio”.

 
Nicely done!
My personal take on this is to tune slightly conservatively for the mix you run... that way no single minor change will make a significant difference.
I believe changing oil brand/type can make just as much difference as changing mix ratio. Problems arise when a motor is tuned right on the limit (as a many come out of the box) & then the oil & ratio are both changed resulting in a condition that is cumulatively just lean enough to push it to the cusp of meltdown
 
Nicely done!
My personal take on this is to tune slightly conservatively for the mix you run... that way no single minor change will make a significant difference.
I believe changing oil brand/type can make just as much difference as changing mix ratio. Problems arise when a motor is tuned right on the limit (as a many come out of the box) & then the oil & ratio are both changed resulting in a condition that is cumulatively just lean enough to push it to the cusp of meltdown
Thanks :) That’s a sensible approach! I generally tweak anything I use each time I take it out.
 
I have never attempted my hand at tuning a carburator. I've never had to since my Husky 445, an Echo 590 have been running fine (as far as I know), and I recently obtained a Jonsered 451EV that's also running "fine". But I'm a tinkerer (albeit never small engines, for whatever unfounded fear) and I've developed an itch to mod and play around with them. These videos will be very helpful.

Can someone comment on using tachometers to tune the saw? Is this more foolproof or easier than going by ear? How does one go about using the tachometer to tune a particular saw?
 
I have never attempted my hand at tuning a carburator. I've never had to since my Husky 445, an Echo 590 have been running fine (as far as I know), and I recently obtained a Jonsered 451EV that's also running "fine". But I'm a tinkerer (albeit never small engines, for whatever unfounded fear) and I've developed an itch to mod and play around with them. These videos will be very helpful.

Can someone comment on using tachometers to tune the saw? Is this more foolproof or easier than going by ear? How does one go about using the tachometer to tune a particular saw?
A tach is a good idea to have. Though it’s certainly not as good as tuning by ear / how the engine feels / responds, it’s a very good start.

Over time you’ll get to know the sounds of the engine and what to look and feel for. I have multiple videos on tuning by ear, tuning by tach, how to interpret the symptoms of an engine and tweak accordingly. If you have a stock engine, tuning 500 - 1000 rpm below max rpm is a good start and will be safe.
 
I start by tuning the low back it off till it’s just about to die then bring it in till it’s about to die then back it off in the middle where it’s running the heat do the same with the high. When I’m in the wood I tweak it just a bit.
 
A tech is a good idea to have. Though it’s certainly not as good as tuning by ear / how the engine feels / responds, it’s a very good start.

Over time you’ll get to know the sounds of the engine and what to look and feel for. I have multiple videos on tuning by ear, tuning by tach, how to interpret the symptoms of an engine and tweak accordingly. If you have a stock engine, tuning 500 - 1000 rpm below max rpm is a good start and will be safe.
Tuning that below that typically makes them pretty rich, but so does tuning by ear...
 
A tech is a good idea to have. Though it’s certainly not as good as tuning by ear / how the engine feels / responds, it’s a very good start.

Over time you’ll get to know the sounds of the engine and what to look and feel for. I have multiple videos on tuning by ear, tuning by tach, how to interpret the symptoms of an engine and tweak accordingly. If you have a stock engine, tuning 500 - 1000 rpm below max rpm is a good start and will be safe.
This is great, that's what I was looking for.I'll probably always have a stock engine, although muffler mods and better air intake systems will be certainly done, possibly timing on the Echo since I could find a drop-in mod for that.

One thing that escapes me is the "ideal" (I'm under the impression this is a dynamic state, based off several variable) RPM range while "in the wood".
 
This is great, that's what I was looking for.I'll probably always have a stock engine, although muffler mods and better air intake systems will be certainly done, possibly timing on the Echo since I could find a drop-in mod for that.

One thing that escapes me is the "ideal" (I'm under the impression this is a dynamic state, based off several variable) RPM range while "in the wood".
That changes with the size of the wood. The easiest way is to make some cuts and feel how the adjustments have hurt or helped cut speed.
 
This is great, that's what I was looking for.I'll probably always have a stock engine, although muffler mods and better air intake systems will be certainly done, possibly timing on the Echo since I could find a drop-in mod for that.

One thing that escapes me is the "ideal" (I'm under the impression this is a dynamic state, based off several variable) RPM range while "in the wood".
When you modify it at all, even opening the muffler; it may change the ideal rpm.

I’d suggest for now keeping it very simple or you’ll chase your tail and get frustrated.

Leave the saw unmodified, get a tach, set the saw to 500rpm below max throttle and go cut. In time you’ll get the experience to deviate from that.

You’ll need to confirm if your saw has a limited coil before you go further.
 
.Can someone comment on using tachometers to tune the saw? Is this more foolproof or easier than going by ear? How does one go about using the tachometer to tune a particular saw?

I have evolved a problem.....that I can not hear my saw "4stroking" when I am cutting with it (well I can hear it...but can not determine wetter it is right or not)

But I can clearly hear it from 20meters away (had to pass it to my friend go cutting....and 4stroking was evident from 20m away) :)
 
When you modify it at all, even opening the muffler; it may change the ideal rpm.

I’d suggest for now keeping it very simple or you’ll chase your tail and get frustrated.

Leave the saw unmodified, get a tach, set the saw to 500rpm below max throttle and go cut. In time you’ll get the experience to deviate from that.

You’ll need to confirm if your saw has a limited coil before you go further.
How do I confirm my saw(s) have a limited coil? Stock, aren't they all limited?
 
A tech is a good idea to have. Though it’s certainly not as good as tuning by ear / how the engine feels / responds, it’s a very good start.

Over time you’ll get to know the sounds of the engine and what to look and feel for. I have multiple videos on tuning by ear, tuning by tach, how to interpret the symptoms of an engine and tweak accordingly. If you have a stock engine, tuning 500 - 1000 rpm below max rpm is a good start and will be safe.
I was wondering if you can share those videos!
 
The big problem here is that it appeared that he tested these mixture changes all in one day.... the density-altitude (DA) likely didn't change too much. Nor was he using a large-displacement engine.... likely around only 30cc. The bigger the displacement and power-output, the harder it is to cool the engine properly. A proper F/A mixture helps cool the piston and helps to keep the piston from expanding too fast. If now the F/A mixture is lean because of a decrease in F/O mixture ratio, the additional heat generated due to a leaner condition is going to be harder to cope with by the piston and cylinder. In minor leaning, you'll see piston discoloration occuring from burnt oil sitting on hot piston surfaces -- top, sides, and bottom, and of course rings. With far-too-lean mixtures, you're looking at damaged pistons and cylinders.
If we're talking about small, 30+-cc engines, the piston deck's surface area is small compared to the piston-skirt/ring to cylinder surface area ratio. Remember elementary Geometry? Area of a circle = (Pi)r^2; Circumference of a circle = 2r(Pi), where r is the bore radius. Of course the skirt and rings have area, so let's say the side area of cylinder-wall contact is h*2r(Pi), where h would be the height of skirt and ring area that would be associated with heat transfer to the cylinder walls -- mostly surrounding the ring areas and not much below. So, the piston-deck area to heat-transfer area ratio would be r^2 / h*2r = r/2h. You can see that as the displacement (bore) increases, so does the ratio increase, reducing the amount of heat transferred to the cylinder via the rings and a small part of the piston sides. Obviously h increases as well with displacement, but engineers try to keep reciprocating masses to the absolute minimum, especially ring mass (preventing ring-flutter) so h likely does not increase linearly along with an increase of r.
As the displacement of the engine increases, the piston-deck to piston/cylinder contact area ratio also increases, thus the transfer of heat from the piston deck to the cylinder is retarded compared to the smaller displacement engines, and the likelihood of minor piston seizure increases with a non-optimum carb tune. Larger engines demand a more accurate F/A ratio to help keep internal heat under control. And that applies for when an operator changes the Fuel/oil mixture ratios, but even more so when the DA changes.
In my area in the foothills of Appalachia (NC), my general altitude is 1100' msl. However, the DA can be anywhere from (-)100' msl in the winter, through nearly 6000' msl on hot, humid summer days. That's if I am at my shop. If I go down to the ravine, does 150' elevation change mean anything? Not too much. But If I go to the coast, then yes, gotta re-tune. If I go up to Saueratown Mountain, then yes, gotta re-tune. If the last time (say yesterday) I re-tuned the saw the DA was at 1500'msl and today it's at 3500' msl, and I'm operating at the same physical altitude, then yes, I gotta re-tune. And yes, the DA can change that much within 24 hours or less. In fact, it can change in a matter of a couple hours if a large cold- or large warm-front blows through the area.
My point - re-tune your carbs when *anything* changes! It's not rocket science. It's damn easy and quick once you've done it a couple times.
PS. Ever run out of fuel with a small-displacement 2-stroke engine (30+_cc)? What happens? The rpm's don't really do anything but slow down to a stop. Anyone operating a 'big-displacement' (90+cc) 2-stroke knows that when the fuel tank runs dry, the engine starts to scream uncontrollably due to a very lean F/A condition. At least mine do. All the more reason that his testing on a small-displacement engine doesn't really prove a point, except perhaps in a small, careless way for small-displacement engines.
 
This vid is ok for the newb on tuning chainsaws -- it's a good place to start. There are more nuances to listen for, however.

If you blip the throttle and it comes down to idle, but then rpm's increase gradually, you know the low-speed circuit is still too lean.
If you blip the throttle from idle and it isn't a smooth jump to high rpms, you know that, again, low-speed and possibly the high speed circuits are too lean.
Likely the best method to determine if your tuning practices are spot-on is to periodically take a look at the bottom of the piston. Yeah, I know, it's a PITA if you don't have a digital probe scope. But for a piston-port engine, you can take off the carb, stick a very small mirror into the inlet port, and shine a small, dim flashlight against the mirror up to the underside of the piston. If it's nice and shiny bright aluminum, then you know your tuning prowess is damn good. If on the other hand you see a bit of browning, you should be alerted to better adjust your tuning behaviors and enrichen the F/A mixture more than you have been. If it's dark brown or black.... you better take the cylinder off to inspect for transfer and/or other damage.
 
The big problem here is that it appeared that he tested these mixture changes all in one day.... the density-altitude (DA) likely didn't change too much. Nor was he using a large-displacement engine.... likely around only 30cc. The bigger the displacement and power-output, the harder it is to cool the engine properly. A proper F/A mixture helps cool the piston and helps to keep the piston from expanding too fast. If now the F/A mixture is lean because of a decrease in F/O mixture ratio, the additional heat generated due to a leaner condition is going to be harder to cope with by the piston and cylinder. In minor leaning, you'll see piston discoloration occuring from burnt oil sitting on hot piston surfaces -- top, sides, and bottom, and of course rings. With far-too-lean mixtures, you're looking at damaged pistons and cylinders.
If we're talking about small, 30+-cc engines, the piston deck's surface area is small compared to the piston-skirt/ring to cylinder surface area ratio. Remember elementary Geometry? Area of a circle = (Pi)r^2; Circumference of a circle = 2r(Pi), where r is the bore radius. Of course the skirt and rings have area, so let's say the side area of cylinder-wall contact is h*2r(Pi), where h would be the height of skirt and ring area that would be associated with heat transfer to the cylinder walls -- mostly surrounding the ring areas and not much below. So, the piston-deck area to heat-transfer area ratio would be r^2 / h*2r = r/2h. You can see that as the displacement (bore) increases, so does the ratio increase, reducing the amount of heat transferred to the cylinder via the rings and a small part of the piston sides. Obviously h increases as well with displacement, but engineers try to keep reciprocating masses to the absolute minimum, especially ring mass (preventing ring-flutter) so h likely does not increase linearly along with an increase of r.
As the displacement of the engine increases, the piston-deck to piston/cylinder contact area ratio also increases, thus the transfer of heat from the piston deck to the cylinder is retarded compared to the smaller displacement engines, and the likelihood of minor piston seizure increases with a non-optimum carb tune. Larger engines demand a more accurate F/A ratio to help keep internal heat under control. And that applies for when an operator changes the Fuel/oil mixture ratios, but even more so when the DA changes.
In my area in the foothills of Appalachia (NC), my general altitude is 1100' msl. However, the DA can be anywhere from (-)100' msl in the winter, through nearly 6000' msl on hot, humid summer days. That's if I am at my shop. If I go down to the ravine, does 150' elevation change mean anything? Not too much. But If I go to the coast, then yes, gotta re-tune. If I go up to Saueratown Mountain, then yes, gotta re-tune. If the last time (say yesterday) I re-tuned the saw the DA was at 1500'msl and today it's at 3500' msl, and I'm operating at the same physical altitude, then yes, I gotta re-tune. And yes, the DA can change that much within 24 hours or less. In fact, it can change in a matter of a couple hours if a large cold- or large warm-front blows through the area.
My point - re-tune your carbs when *anything* changes! It's not rocket science. It's damn easy and quick once you've done it a couple times.
PS. Ever run out of fuel with a small-displacement 2-stroke engine (30+_cc)? What happens? The rpm's don't really do anything but slow down to a stop. Anyone operating a 'big-displacement' (90+cc) 2-stroke knows that when the fuel tank runs dry, the engine starts to scream uncontrollably due to a very lean F/A condition. At least mine do. All the more reason that his testing on a small-displacement engine doesn't really prove a point, except perhaps in a small, careless way for small-displacement engines.


I didn't read past your first sentence. The entire point was to eliminate all the variables beyond fuel mix ratio, so of course he tested all these mixtures on the same day, at the same time, humidity, temperature, all of that. That was the entire point of the test.

I don't agree with his results, but you missed the whole idea here.
 
I didn't read past your first sentence. The entire point was to eliminate all the variables beyond fuel mix ratio, so of course he tested all these mixtures on the same day, at the same time, humidity, temperature, all of that. That was the entire point of the test.

I don't agree with his results, but you missed the whole idea here.
You didn't read past my first sentence, so how can you say that you disagree? Kinda short sighted, eh? His point was that F/O mixture changes have no effect on A/F mixture. And he was using a very small engine, likely around 30cc, which do not produce much heat. Try reading the whole post before commenting against what you think I meant.
 
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