Dangerous "unseen" high point attachment!!!

[arboralliance]

Camphor Climbing Story (Cinnamomum camphora)

Shot line up into Camphor for dead wood n detail 100+ footer, for contract doing 35 of them. Couldn’t see exactly where the high point was but knew it had to be 100’ up as the rope ends were 3.5 metres (total) off the ground with stretch. Hadn’t broken anything off up there, as I thought I would, when bouncing on the end under weight, in the hope it would drop back into a bigger fork, all good so lets climb!

Foot lock (tail) 15 foot up and that uneasy feeling got the better of me so I swung in the 15+ foot to the trunk and man handled a pole strap around the metre plus girth “just in case”, better to take a pole slide 20-30 foot between forks than a ground fall if the attachment fails! 5 mins later I was approx’ 25 foot under the attachment point and “virtually” :censored: Myself, I was over a high point and an off set secondary point the high point being 3-4 feet from the tips of the top leaves and the dia of the high point attachment being 1”, yes, one inch! The secondary lower, off-set point being barely 2 inch diameter!!!!!

Needless to say I was very glad I had the sense to attach pole strap and trunk walk at 15 feet, a quick reset of the high point saw it in a 4 inch crotch some 5 or so feet below that point…

Didn’t have camera with me but will take a pick of that tree and if I am dismantling the ones around it I may be able to get a shot of the “limbs” I was climbing on…

Anyone else got some stories similar, I have plenty more but this was definitely one of the better ones…

(My fellow climber and I could actually see this high point but both felt the limbs it was over were larger than what they were, hhmm, new company, hhmm, maybe the fellow climber really doesn't like me?)

 

[Blinky]

Sometimes there's too much foliage to see but I try to inspect high point with binocs before climbing.

Two days ago I had one set that I couldn't see and I footlocked up a 4 or 5 feet and started bouncing on it... less than half a second later I was on my back trying to catch my breath.

The rope stopped on a secondary which I was subsequently able to use but the idea that I could've been footlocking 50' up and suddenly dropped 4' bothers me.

 

[clearance]

Thats what happens when you put the tree before you. If you are in doubt about your tip, put on the spurs.

 

[RedlineIt]

Bounce test no substitute for visual...

Deadwooding Garry Oaks, aka Oregon White Oak, Quercus garryanna.

Horrible weather, steady cold rain, clots of mist coming in off a grey ocean. Tired, soaked gear, ropes, boots, just miserable.

Chuck throw line up third big spreading garry of the day. Swing - and a miss. I'm chucking bricks. I suck. Hey, lucky shot! 50, 60 footer and it's over something up there. Looking up and isolating my line, safety glasses covered in rain, been that way all day, heck all week. Take 'em off and it's rain in your eyes. My zing-it line used to be bright yellow, when did it get so grey? I'll see my TIP better when I get my rope up...

Haul rope up, catch a quick glimpse through the parting mist. That looks good! (Didn't it?) Nice 4-inch diameter, I've climbed on less, ah it's gone again, damnable fog. Not a day to mess around with installing a friction saver, why complicate things in this persistant gloom.

Get tied in, and do the bounce test, expecting and rewarded with a shower of even larger water droplets. Oh Yeah, she's good. Sturdy, even. Let's just do this last tree and call it a day. Up we go. So glad I found out about the Pantin foot ascender, much easier on these steadily aging knees. FLing double rope would be faster, yeah, but tough on the bones. Take it eazy, old man. I think I'll spring for a nice SRT kit, maybe after that brake job on the truck.

Where am I? ('Bout 40 foot up, bozo.) How's that TIP? (Good idea to check these things, look up, ******, s'OK.) Yeah, looks good! Couple more steps on the Pantin and I can lanyard in and advance...What the heck is all this junk on my rope? (Looks to be a crapload of wood fibre, what do you think it is?)

GREAT BLUDDY SCOT!

Lanyard, Now! The TIP is dead wood!

----------------------------------------------------------

After I had repositioned twice and got above my original TIP, I could see that my rope had sawn more than halfway through the punky dead limb I had been on. It survived my bounce test only because it was resting over another limb.

I still use the bounce test to confirm my TIP, but I got lucky that grey day. Now, no exceptions, I see my TIP clearly or haul it out and try again. Or I pull up my rope on a pulley with a second rope, floating false crotch style. No isolating the line, less friction, easy, smooth.

I will get kitted up for SRT, maybe after I re-roof my shed.


RedlineIt

 

[RedlineIt]

Thats what happens when you put the tree before you. If you are in doubt about your tip, put on the spurs.

Not possible when the cutting permit reads "All climbing to be done by an ISA certified Arborist without the use of spurs".


Permit said nothing about dead-wooding with my rope, so I was OK!

Have a reality pill on the spurs, friend. In many situations, I can no more use spurs to trim than I could call in an aerial spray for my lawn weeds.

Go 50Km up island, it's all different, no one gives a shake if you improve their ocean view on spurs, but you really must start deal with some of us other treeworker's reality.

RedlineIt

 

[beowulf343]

Not possible when the cutting permit reads "All climbing to be done by an ISA certified Arborist without the use of spurs.

Ha ha-makes me glad i'm not a ca and thus don't have to worry about situations like this.

I'm with clearance on this one-if i can't see my tip the spikes are being used. And if people don't like it they can find someone else to do the job. It will be a cold day you know where when i trust my life to a tip i can't see. You guys all promote safety so heavily yet seem to have no problem with risking your lives in these types of situations. Like clearance said, i'll put my life before a tree's life any day.

 

[jomoco]

Gaffing Trees

Although I let my certifications lapse long ago out of disgust with the ISA,
I'll chime in here on the side of Redlineit and say that if you can't prune to class 1 standards on any tree safely without the use of gaffs, you should not call yourself a professional arborist capable of pruning to ISA standards period.

It takes alot to prune 175 foot eucs to class 1 specs, physical stamina, and excellent climbing knowledge with an emphasis on multiple tie in points. Even though I specialize in takedowns, I spent many years footlocking monster Eucs and prided myself on doing so utilizing leather cambium savers on each of my climbing lines, pruning to class 1 specs, and having these beautiful trees hold these trims for 3-4 years without suckering, it's an art, it's not easy, but it can be done safely and professionally by an experienced arborist to ISA standards.

The fact that it is rarely done anymore does not mean that it can't be done, but speaks more to the point of the work being done by low skilled, low paid
climbers working for hypocritical CA's hoping the inspectors will turn a blind eye to their substandard work practices.

The art of high quality treework seems to be disappearing from this business in favor of low paid cheap labor employed by CA's trying keep their heads above water by cutting corners to maximize their profit. It's sad but true.

If you feel you can't safely prune a tree without the use of gaffs, by all means slap em on, stay safe, but calling yourself a professional arborist doing high quality work is dishonest, the guy climbing the tallest tree in the world video without gaffs is a clue that what I'm saying is true.

My hats off to those of you still willing to do it the right way, even if it's a fading art form rarely practiced anymore these days in this cheap labor market.

jomoco

 

[beowulf343]

Although I let my certifications lapse long ago out of disgust with the ISA,
I'll chime in here on the side of Redlineit and say that if you can't prune to class 1 standards on any tree safely without the use of gaffs, you should not call yourself a professional arborist capable of pruning to ISA standards period.

Take note jomoco-i have NEVER called myself a "professional arborist" and i'll take offense at anyone who does call me an arborist!

But like you, i primarily deal with takedowns these days but spent my fair share of time trimming. I have absolutely nothing against climbing without spikes, i do it on a regular basis just to keep in practice. The problem i have is tying into a tip that can't be seen. I'm a big guy, i've had tips break on me that would hold a normal sized person. I guess i am just better at judging whether my tie-in is going to hold me when i'm looking at it from only a few feet away then when i can't see it at all or it is 175 feet away. Probably why i'll never be called a "professional arborist"-i like to make sure my tip will hold me rather than just assuming it will without even looking at it.

 

[jomoco]

Tie in points

Take note jomoco-i have NEVER called myself a "professional arborist" and i'll take offense at anyone who does call me an arborist!

But like you, i primarily deal with takedowns these days but spent my fair share of time trimming. I have absolutely nothing against climbing without spikes, i do it on a regular basis just to keep in practice. The problem i have is tying into a tip that can't be seen. I'm a big guy, i've had tips break on me that would hold a normal sized person. I guess i am just better at judging whether my tie-in is going to hold me when i'm looking at it from only a few feet away then when i can't see it at all or it is 175 feet away. Probably why i'll never be called a "professional arborist"-i like to make sure my tip will hold me rather than just assuming it will without even looking at it.

Hey there Beowulf,

My post was not directed at you, I was simply pointing out that there are many of us that have gone through the hassle of getting ISA certified and take some satisfaction in being able to safely climb very large trees, prune them to class 1 standards, all without the use of gaffs, by employing hard earned climbing techniques after years of learning and effort.

I can honestly say that I have never placed my climbing line into a tie in point that I could not see, I have a spotting scope that I use to determine TIP's beyond my range of sight, many times this resulted in my pulling my throw line out and taking another shot with my pnuematic throw bag gun when shooting over 100 feet ( see Don Blairs Arborist Tools and Equipment Book ).

I fully realise that some trees are so thick with foliage that confirmation of a secure TIP can be difficult to determine, in which case I'll select a lower TIP that I can visually confirm is safe, then work my way up in increments with multiple body line placement.

A good friend of mine is a certified arborist ex-marine, he's 6'7" tall weighs 295 lbs, footlocks big trees, and uses a polesaw to keep from breaking out small laterals and tops. I've seen him do lots of fine class 1 work with no gaffs.

Listen, I agree that safety is priority 1, and if that means using gaffs, by all means use them. What ticks me off is CA's or anyone else gaffing prunes, then saying they do high quality work to ISA standards, it aint so and it never has been.

jomoco

 

[arboralliance]

Soooooo...

Anyone got any close call stories with nasty high point tie ins?

Or are we gonna beat this old argument back to life yet again...:deadhorse:

Here, here clearance, nice wind up, you know council contracts wont allow spikes, nuf said, i've climbed for 22 years now on and off old faithfuls, even a funny vid of me somewhere doin a very heavy palm prune on 'em!:help:

RedlineIt, really enjoyed your writing, good stuff, will be keepin an eye out for more o that and nice retort too...

LETS HEAR THEM TALES OF HIGH POINT FUN :jawdrop: AND FRIVOLITY!!

 

[moray]

I don't think I would ever climb on a tip I couldn't see unless I had some other means of attachment.

I had a weird one a few months ago, kind of an upside down version of the subject of this thread. I could see the tip perfectly well, about 30 feet up in a white pine. It was a dead branch, under inch in diameter, angled slightly upward. The crotch I really wanted was about 8 inches below, but no matter how many times I tried, I couldn't get the throw weight over the crotch but under the crappy little dead limb. I really didn't want to fall 8 inches on my short rope if the tip broke, so I decided to break it intentionally.

Jumping up and down on the climb line did nothing. I replaced the climb line with my bull line so I could really apply some force. I rigged up a 2:1 MA pulley system with my come-along and started cranking. In order not to damage the bull line around the small radius of the dead limb, I stopped cranking after I reached 1500 lbs or so. The little limb was still fine. When I later climbed past that spot by other means, I sawed off the little limb, beautifully polished where it met the main trunk, and kept it as a souvenir.

 

[Pilsnaman]

Not a high point one but still applicable... Had to deadwood an oak and it was one of those days where the throwline wasn't going where I wanted it (I am sure it was equipment problems :jester: ). The head climber was coming out that day which caused pressure to have things moving quickly. Finally got a "good," 10" diam, almost horizontal limb and started footlocking the 60 ft or so up. About half way up a co-worker yelled to me "hey man, you know that limb you are on is dead right?" Looked up and sure enough the green I saw on the ground was from a limb right beside it. What caused more concern was my rope wasn't in the crotch but about two feet out on the limb, couldn't get the rope to move closer due to crap in the way. Luckily there was a good limb about 5' above me so I got to that and changed out my tie-in. While nothing bad happened that was the last time I ever made that mistake, always looked twice from then on.

 

[treeseer]

If you can't see the tip then shoot into a lower one. Otherwise you may be hurting both the tree and yourself. This has nothing to do with using spurs or deer stands or pitons to climb prunes. The perfectionists who have to hit the best,highest tip even if that effort results in breakage are :monkey: confusing the means--climbing--with the end--tree care.

jomoco I don't know what turned you off to ISA but just to be clear it's ANSI standards that provide professionalism, and ISA is just one org that participates in ANSI.

 

[lxt]

Not possible when the cutting permit reads "All climbing to be done by an ISA certified Arborist without the use of spurs".



First off ISA certified arborist or certified tree trimmer or weekend warrior NEVER put the tree above you in the manner of safety. The contract should state such.

I will do my best for the health of the tree but I must agree with clearance(in some regard) if hooks will save you use em!!!

ISA arborists here we go again!!! lobby & ye shall receive.

LXT................

 

[Ekka]

Thats what happens when you put the tree before you.

Hmmm, we also know he didn't use a cambium saver coz I'd love to see one of them set in an un-see-able crotch. So he would have given that crotch curry.

If you can't see the tip then shoot into a lower one.

And once you have achieved all you can from that tip you climb higher to reset.

No rocket science just common sense.

Not so long ago in our Australian Arbor Age was an post accident investigative article on tip failure when big shotted from the ground and the precautions. At least in that failure they saw the branch but the top was totally rotted and the sides just a bark shell.

 

[treeseer]

NEVER put the tree above you in the manner of safety. The contract should state such. .........

Actually, ANSI standards are incredibly slack on this point--they DO state that spurs are ok if tips are "more than a throwline distance apart". It may be easier to whine and moan about standards than to read and interpret them, but whining and moaning about something you've never seen does not lead to a valid argument. :censored:

Any tree man here :lifter: can surely fling a sack of shot from a lower branch to an upper branch 99% of the time, so that is not the reason to spurn professionalism and spur prunes on a regular basis. Like the man said, "And once you have achieved all you can from that tip you climb higher to reset.

No rocket science just common sense."
sorry for the derail jarrah.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I honestly don't understand how anyone could ever climb a rope without seeing where it's crotched. I guess some of you folks have a death wish. I will always crotch in on a lower, visible, limb and then double-lanyard up to a higher, invisible-from-the-ground crotch to set my main rope. Having had one visible limb snap on me and experienced free-fall for five feet before a lower limb caught my line, there is no way I want to experience that sensation ever again. When I fell, I was spread-eagle, my back to the ground, as you sometimes see in movies where a rock climber disappears into the abyss. It was weird looking up and seeing the top of the tree getting smaller as I fell. I don't recommend that sensation to anyone.

 

[Blinky]

I have to agree that if you are in doubt about your TIP, set a new one that you have no doubt about. Your own safety should be paramount... but you don't have to strap on spurs so much as take some extra time.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Thats what happens when you put the tree before you. If you are in doubt about your tip, put on the spurs.

Sometimes yes, but in this case it would probably have worked to have set a lower entry line that could be seen, then climb up to set the best TIP.

 

[arboralliance]

Ok...

Perhaps a bit of clarity.

We had been climbing these trees for a week.

We both saw that the line was in a decent crotch and considering the limb had not failed at all under bounced/shock loading this confirmed the case.

Binoculars are the answer in this instance, absolutley, not spurs.

Down south i always carried binoculars, had to for obvious reasons, this is a small tree down there...

Hope the pic gives a little clarity though it was taken from the north side after felling several trees away...

The dropping vertical line is how the rope was set/appeared and the side we could and were viewing from was over there, south side.