Tio
ArboristSite Lurker
*Returns from his walkabout*
Hmmm. . .
*Shakes head sadly, and leaves again*
Hmmm. . .
*Shakes head sadly, and leaves again*
Disparaging Remarks
- Thread starter Tio
- Start date
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Tio
ArboristSite Lurker
I would venture to say that the biggest part of us did not have any 'formal' teaching when we were learning to climb.
I know I didn't.
Yet, I live and have never been injured. I still have all of my fingers, toes, and various other appendages. . . and they all work according to design specs.
It is not luck.
It is a willingness to learn, as well a willingness to adapt to other methods which are an improvement over your own style.
All of your little 'safety rules' and 'regulations' are indicative of larger and more intrusive government.
What really matters is common sense.
I do not need an organization to teach me that.
You either have it or you don't. . . end of story.
Every thing we do in this industry (and in life) is a calculated risk.
We can do things to 'stack the deck' more in our favor, BUT, it is still a risk.
Will that tree fall where I planned?
Probably.
But there are no guarantees. . . EVER. . . end of story.
A bolt might break, a cable snap, or a boom fail at a critical moment; thus setting into motion an irreversible chain of events which can ultimately lead to our death. . . or worse.
Everything is temporary.
Including us.
On a side note:
Learn to argue your points in a logical and calm manner. Present facts, documentation, whatever it takes to prove your point.
Do not just attack out of hand.
It weakens your argument.
I know I didn't.
Yet, I live and have never been injured. I still have all of my fingers, toes, and various other appendages. . . and they all work according to design specs.
It is not luck.
It is a willingness to learn, as well a willingness to adapt to other methods which are an improvement over your own style.
All of your little 'safety rules' and 'regulations' are indicative of larger and more intrusive government.
What really matters is common sense.
I do not need an organization to teach me that.
You either have it or you don't. . . end of story.
Every thing we do in this industry (and in life) is a calculated risk.
We can do things to 'stack the deck' more in our favor, BUT, it is still a risk.
Will that tree fall where I planned?
Probably.
But there are no guarantees. . . EVER. . . end of story.
A bolt might break, a cable snap, or a boom fail at a critical moment; thus setting into motion an irreversible chain of events which can ultimately lead to our death. . . or worse.
Everything is temporary.
Including us.
On a side note:
Learn to argue your points in a logical and calm manner. Present facts, documentation, whatever it takes to prove your point.
Do not just attack out of hand.
It weakens your argument.
ROLLACOSTA
Addicted to ArboristSite
I hate to say it but the tree game is a thankless job,many moons ago I did a bit of 'home removal work' [tree work was quiet] I did around 20 jobs and i'll guess 80% of the customers gave me a monetery tip ,they were all over the moon and so thankfull,I can go months without a client offering my groundie a tip [not that i'm after tips].
Not the same the tree bizz,most customers get my company name wrong ,loose our numbers,have me do one job ,then get someone else to do another,and vise versa.
The other day we did a shrub removal job for a retired guy,it took half an hour I charged the customer £75 he nearly fainted when I told him I was finnished.
The other evening I went out to bid on a stump,it was a steering wheel size thing,no chips to take away ,my price was £60,he told me he would have to consider it..:bang:
Not the same the tree bizz,most customers get my company name wrong ,loose our numbers,have me do one job ,then get someone else to do another,and vise versa.
The other day we did a shrub removal job for a retired guy,it took half an hour I charged the customer £75 he nearly fainted when I told him I was finnished.
The other evening I went out to bid on a stump,it was a steering wheel size thing,no chips to take away ,my price was £60,he told me he would have to consider it..:bang:
ROLLACOSTA
Addicted to ArboristSite
Heaven forbid a lowelly tree man turns up to a bid in a nice car,I go to bids now in my old work truck,my commercial /ute /nissan pick-up sent a few potential clients crazy with envy,you could see it in there faces and some asked the value,I explaned this truck is not a Range Rover,or Porche [a bloody 2004 pick-up for jeez sake]
xtremetrees
Addicted to ArboristSite
thats just crazy. I think its more so volume of customers than quality or educational level..
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
X, What are you trying to say?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
X, What are you trying to say? Poor quality will follow you and haunt you and maybe sue you. Good Quality eventually gets you the volume you desire and a perceived educational level. Rarely will you ever get asked about your background and education. Quality is the engine. Everything else is details.xtremetrees said:
xtremetrees
Addicted to ArboristSite
9 out of 10 customers that call me could care less if I spike trims they just want a good price. I do educate them. i dont blame them really. If trimming they would go with me (maybe) but how do you compete with a 1/4 million dollars worth of gear thats just selling price.? You cant.
For instance I bid 11 pines to remove at $4,000. All over the powerlines etc.
The job went for $1,100 bucks I originally priced the job at 5,400!. Do you think the customer opted for a C.A. NO they could care less but saved 3 grand! . Maybe I need to stop folling myself about my C.A. credientials and actually feed my family and become a micro-logger. With the cash I've spent on testing, booking, seminars, travel, lectures, email diagnosis (time is money) all that cash could go toward a old log truck and I could feed my family better.
I'm seriously thinking about just doing removals.
Until the ISA starts pulling the C.A's certifications for spikeing trims why should I continue to suffer our ethics.
I dont know if I'll keep my C.A. or let it lapse.C.A. is turning into a voluenteer effort more than anything. Because I dont have alot of showy gear IE. bucket, new dumps they want it cheap...Out of 1 year operating a business I've gotten one or two clients that recognize C.A.and barely pay decent wages.Maybe thats why there are so many C.A.'s over 40 years of age and not the younger generation because where I'm standing its just not so profitable. Time is money and throwballing 10 trim take time. Whereas I could just walk all up um in mear minutes. It hasnt come to it yet but its close. I keep holding to my ethics and maybe Ill get out of trees altogether. I look at the oldest operating tree companies in my area. They call wanting my help. None of them are holding to our ethics and are lucrative business owners. Maybe I should listen to them folks spiking trims.
For instance I bid 11 pines to remove at $4,000. All over the powerlines etc.
The job went for $1,100 bucks I originally priced the job at 5,400!. Do you think the customer opted for a C.A. NO they could care less but saved 3 grand! . Maybe I need to stop folling myself about my C.A. credientials and actually feed my family and become a micro-logger. With the cash I've spent on testing, booking, seminars, travel, lectures, email diagnosis (time is money) all that cash could go toward a old log truck and I could feed my family better.
I'm seriously thinking about just doing removals.
Until the ISA starts pulling the C.A's certifications for spikeing trims why should I continue to suffer our ethics.
I dont know if I'll keep my C.A. or let it lapse.C.A. is turning into a voluenteer effort more than anything. Because I dont have alot of showy gear IE. bucket, new dumps they want it cheap...Out of 1 year operating a business I've gotten one or two clients that recognize C.A.and barely pay decent wages.Maybe thats why there are so many C.A.'s over 40 years of age and not the younger generation because where I'm standing its just not so profitable. Time is money and throwballing 10 trim take time. Whereas I could just walk all up um in mear minutes. It hasnt come to it yet but its close. I keep holding to my ethics and maybe Ill get out of trees altogether. I look at the oldest operating tree companies in my area. They call wanting my help. None of them are holding to our ethics and are lucrative business owners. Maybe I should listen to them folks spiking trims.
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xtremetrees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Further more off the top of my head , I'm just guessing out of 10 C.A. companies only 2 of them dont spikes trims. Of these two companies maybe its 90 % workforce is of latino decent.
Or if they are American
Lissen they get a C.A. listing, they get a bucket truck to justify and appear professional and its on. They leave the throwball at the house.
Oh you doubt me?
I would get a camera and take close ups. But another mans business is not my own. I could care less. It simpley is none of my businees to tell another treeman or judge them even, but they make money off my sweat of holding to C.A. of that I'm sure.
So ISA pull those C.A.'s that are making money off my C.A. name.
Or if they are American
Lissen they get a C.A. listing, they get a bucket truck to justify and appear professional and its on. They leave the throwball at the house.
Oh you doubt me?
I would get a camera and take close ups. But another mans business is not my own. I could care less. It simpley is none of my businees to tell another treeman or judge them even, but they make money off my sweat of holding to C.A. of that I'm sure.
So ISA pull those C.A.'s that are making money off my C.A. name.
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Treeinnovator
ArboristSite Operative
extremetrees,
it's not your ethics, it's your marketing. i follow the rules (never spike trims, never hat rack, etc.) and i still manage to run circles around my competitors. i have other tree guys calling me all the time trying to get sub work. obviously they must not be as busy. the difference... i market differently than they do.
it's not your ethics, it's your marketing. i follow the rules (never spike trims, never hat rack, etc.) and i still manage to run circles around my competitors. i have other tree guys calling me all the time trying to get sub work. obviously they must not be as busy. the difference... i market differently than they do.
Tio
ArboristSite Lurker
The ethics have absolutely nothing to do with it when you are trying to feed a family.
You can sit there and talk all day long about your ethics, C.A, I.S.A, and what have you. . . but when it comes down to putting food on the table, paying the bills, keeping the little woman in Wal-Mart money. . . your ethics and BS will go right out the window. . . just like mine did when I was cutting them big old Mahogany trees down in Honduras.
I don't spike trims.
BULLS***T!
You will do whatever it takes to feed your family, buy that pretty new toy, or whatever.
Don't even try to feed a line of ethics here.
You can sit there and talk all day long about your ethics, C.A, I.S.A, and what have you. . . but when it comes down to putting food on the table, paying the bills, keeping the little woman in Wal-Mart money. . . your ethics and BS will go right out the window. . . just like mine did when I was cutting them big old Mahogany trees down in Honduras.
I don't spike trims.
BULLS***T!
You will do whatever it takes to feed your family, buy that pretty new toy, or whatever.
Don't even try to feed a line of ethics here.
"9 out of 10 customers that call me could care less if I spike trims"
"Out of 1 year operating a business I've gotten one or two clients that recognize C.A."
you are in a low-educated market then.:help:
Doesn't your county have an agricultural extension that gets phone calls from the public. They should be recommending c.a,'s. I get a lot of referrals there.
Your rant about c.a. competitors spiking trims has been going on for months.
And if you've got such a bone in your brain about it, go ahead and phot or videotape them in action, and do something about it.
I don't spike trims, I'm old, and I rarely use a throwball, yet I get up there faster than either method. A ladder gets me up the first 32 or 40' easy as pie.
If you're losing so much time with a throwball, use a ladder.:yoyo:
"Out of 1 year operating a business I've gotten one or two clients that recognize C.A."
you are in a low-educated market then.:help:
Doesn't your county have an agricultural extension that gets phone calls from the public. They should be recommending c.a,'s. I get a lot of referrals there.
Your rant about c.a. competitors spiking trims has been going on for months.
And if you've got such a bone in your brain about it, go ahead and phot or videotape them in action, and do something about it.
I don't spike trims, I'm old, and I rarely use a throwball, yet I get up there faster than either method. A ladder gets me up the first 32 or 40' easy as pie.
If you're losing so much time with a throwball, use a ladder.:yoyo:
rebelman
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you seer. But XMan is right about all these certified and ISA or TCIA members using spikes, or flush cutting, or angled stubs on the back side of the tree, etc. I mean why join if your level of work is already higher than than pedigreed companies?
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
I don't give a flying ----, but I find it funny and also pathetic that those who scream about spurs like a bunch of whining babies do nothing to stop ISA certified people from doing it. Or to have them kicked out of the ISA, like the biggest utility in BC, that exports power to California, all of the vegetation managers it employs (the supervisors and controllers of powerline treework) are ISA certified. All of them, yet all trees under thier control are climbed with spurs, those that are out of bucket reach that is. All trees, I have brought this up, shown phone numbers and the BC Hydro website but all the ISA culls here can do is snivel and whine, not one of them has called or e-mailed BC Hydro for an explanation and talked about it. Losers, do something or else STFU. Cheers, Jim
BostonBull
Addicted to ArboristSite
I for once agree with clearance. There needs to be stricter standards for Isa and especially TCIA certs.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Interesting, spike or dont spike, hatrack or dont hatrack, earn or miss out, too dear for Rolla, too cheap must be bad???
The other day a woman across the road from where I was bidding asked me to go over and give her a price for trimming a tree.
Well, in the backyard she had a horribly resprouted topped Leapard tree ... it was awful, and she wanted it hacked again.
Being an idiot that likes to uphold good arboricultural practices I informed her of the consequences etc and that i wouldn't rehack it.
Her exact words were ... "well, your a bringer of bad news, I suppose not much good to me then, off you go."
Funny how people confuse truth as bad news isn't it.
And I left, she will simply get the next bloke to hack it, now this was a wealthy woman in a rich suburb ... coincidently both neighbouring houses had topped trees ... they all live on a hill and want a view.
What an opinionated industry, some will top others wont, just depends whos opinion the customer wants to hear.
The other day a woman across the road from where I was bidding asked me to go over and give her a price for trimming a tree.
Well, in the backyard she had a horribly resprouted topped Leapard tree ... it was awful, and she wanted it hacked again.
Being an idiot that likes to uphold good arboricultural practices I informed her of the consequences etc and that i wouldn't rehack it.
Her exact words were ... "well, your a bringer of bad news, I suppose not much good to me then, off you go."
Funny how people confuse truth as bad news isn't it.
And I left, she will simply get the next bloke to hack it, now this was a wealthy woman in a rich suburb ... coincidently both neighbouring houses had topped trees ... they all live on a hill and want a view.
What an opinionated industry, some will top others wont, just depends whos opinion the customer wants to hear.
squisher
ArboristSite Operative
I have to agree with clearance as well. I see private companys flying the ISA flag and using their certification to get work and then they'll top or spur trims (if they can climb). Kind of discredits the ISA I think but who has time to police what others are doing, where I'm from there's lots of work to go around.
squisher
squisher
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have run across this problem with a suprising number of ca's-they don't know how to climb! How can you call yourself an arborist and not know how to climb? It is a basic method of tree pruning and care. Makes me glad I'm not a ca-I've seen too many that were an embarrassment to the industry.squisher said:
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yes, 343, many are pathetic, whats worse, they use thier ISA bs credentials to make decisions and direct people. From asking me to climb stone cold dead snags, wildlifing trees (making snags) beside paths, leaving big cottonwoods that lean towards houses after trees of the same size have blown over right next to them, it goes on and on. I would have respect for the ISA if they weren't all about money, kind of like the become an ordained minister adds in the back of magazines. Letting anyone that pays wear thier colors, use the illusion of competence that the gullible public have in "experts". Seen as none of the usual ISA ******s have stepped in, I guess they have decided to STFU, like I asked.
