Don't use starter fluid?

[Old2stroke]

We tell people to never use starter fluid to get their saw going because it is not a lubricant, will remove protective oil films and could lead to engine damage but is there actually any evidence to support this or is it mainly intuition and mythology? 4-stroke engines with pressure oiling still rely on residual oil film to protect moving parts until the engine is running, yet MANY of them in things like wood splitters, generators, and any engine that is so cold it will barely turn over, are routinely started with a spray can and don't appear to suffer from it. Many people that I advise not to use the stuff (know nothing homeowners) claim they have been using it for years and I have yet to see any damage that could be blamed on it.

 

[Patrick62]

I don't think I have used starting fluid (ether) on a gasoline engine in 20? 30? years?
If the fuel and enrichment system (choke, etc) are up to "snuff" it usually doesn't take much to get them to start up.
if it is that blasted COLD out, I am not cutting, so the saws don't really count.
Splitter usually hangs out in the shop, starts easily.
Other small engines, generators, etc, I can usually get them to start.

cars and trucks? Same deal. I drive junk, carbureted stuff. One time, the jeepster refused to start at -18, but the brown dodge with a 440 would start. Go figure...

35 years ago, we got off work, it was really really cold. like -25 or something. The Pontiac gave me one try. Next was to find Ronnie, with jumper cables off his old Ford.

back to original question. Ether in a 2 cycle chainsaw... Nope, no point in it. Gasoline vaporizes easily enough, If it won't bang on mix, there are other problems somewhere that a shot of ether isn't going to help with

 

[grizz55chev]

Like most things, moderation is the key. Continued use would indicate a problem elsewhere that needs attention. YMMV.

 

[bwalker]

We tell people to never use starter fluid to get their saw going because it is not a lubricant, will remove protective oil films and could lead to engine damage but is there actually any evidence to support this or is it mainly intuition and mythology? 4-stroke engines with pressure oiling still rely on residual oil film to protect moving parts until the engine is running, yet MANY of them in things like wood splitters, generators, and any engine that is so cold it will barely turn over, are routinely started with a spray can and don't appear to suffer from it. Many people that I advise not to use the stuff (know nothing homeowners) claim they have been using it for years and I have yet to see any damage that could be blamed on it.

In a two cycle you really don't need starter fluid.
Four cycles and diesels in very cold weather are a different story.

 

[buzz sawyer]

I don't think I have used starting fluid (ether) on a gasoline engine in 20? 30? years?
If the fuel and enrichment system (choke, etc) are up to "snuff" it usually doesn't take much to get them to start up.
if it is that blasted COLD out, I am not cutting, so the saws don't really count.
Splitter usually hangs out in the shop, starts easily.
Other small engines, generators, etc, I can usually get them to start.

cars and trucks? Same deal. I drive junk, carbureted stuff. One time, the jeepster refused to start at -18, but the brown dodge with a 440 would start. Go figure...

35 years ago, we got off work, it was really really cold. like -25 or something. The Pontiac gave me one try. Next was to find Ronnie, with jumper cables off his old Ford.

back to original question. Ether in a 2 cycle chainsaw... Nope, no point in it. Gasoline vaporizes easily enough, If it won't bang on mix, there are other problems somewhere that a shot of ether isn't going to help with

Same here. If it won't start on fuel/mix, you have another problem. I think, at one time, gas companies had Winter and Summer fuel blends. Do they still do that? If so, maybe someone is trying to use summer gas in the winter - and vice-versa - causing excessive fuel boiling in the Summer?

 

[bwalker]

Same here. If it won't start on fuel/mix, you have another problem. I think, at one time, gas companies had Winter and Summer fuel blends. Do they still do that? If so, maybe someone is trying to use summer gas in the winter - and vice-versa - causing excessive fuel boiling in the Summer?

They still have seasonal blends.
Typicly when machine sits the fuel in the carb looses volatility and starting becomes harder. Which is why a fresh tank of fuel and a purge bulb are a good thing.

 

[Old2stroke]

Do we have a reading problem here? I know you should not need starter fluid to start anything and I don't use it but I know people who DO use it and when I tell them not to use it, I would like to give them a good reason. The post was an attempt to find out if anyone has actual evidence that the stuff can lead to engine damage.
What the hell does YMMV mean?

 

[ZeroJunk]

Maybe when these guy's parents or grad parents who understand ether from the 50's and 60's finally die off there will be some sanity return and they will understand that if you had a month to damage a saw with starter fluid you could not do it.

 

[bwalker]

I'm not saying it can't be done because there are some real determined idiots out there, but I think a little shot of starting fluid isn't going to hurt anything.
At start up the engine is awash in liquid fuel, so the washing oil film away argument isn't relevant in my mind.

 

[sean donato]

I don't advocate for its use in any engine because most people don't understand the difference between a half second squirt in a small engine vs unloading a can. 2 stroke or not, it won't magically kill an engine (gas) from a small whiff to get it started. It won't instantly wash all the oil out of the crankcase and or cylinder. If it doesn't start with that initial application, then it's not going to start with more and you're an idiot for trying again.
I've seen way more diesel engines destroyed then gas engines from people using either.

 

[MacAttack]

I've never used ether in any 2-stroke because it seems like the equivalent of straight-gassing it, no lubrication for the top end (or bottom end for that matter).
I've used it to start some old gas tractors for years because otherwise they'll just crank for too long until they fire on choke after sitting for a few months. I've never had any damage using starting fluid.
I've seen blown up diesel pistons from ether, but I've never seen a blown up gas engine from it, and you'd probably be hard pressed to find reliable evidence of a 2 stroke getting damaged by it.

 

[Treeman2021]

I feel it also just puts a person in harms way of getting badly burnt.

 

[Old2stroke]

I've never used ether in any 2-stroke because it seems like the equivalent of straight-gassing it, no lubrication for the top end (or bottom end for that matter).
I've used it to start some old gas tractors for years because otherwise they'll just crank for too long until they fire on choke after sitting for a few months. I've never had any damage using starting fluid.
I've seen blown up diesel pistons from ether, but I've never seen a blown up gas engine from it, and you'd probably be hard pressed to find reliable evidence of a 2 stroke getting damaged by it.

When a diesel engine dies due to the use of ether, what sort of damage is involved?

 

[Mad Professor]

I use mix if it needs a prime or choke is fubar. Real cold bring them inside overnight.

If you are near electric, blowing a hair dyer on the carb for a few minutes works well. For other 2- or 4- stroke carburetor equipment too. Old tractors/trucks/cars and such are easy to flood if you choke them too much when really cold, then you need to pull the plugs and dry them off. If you warm up the carb/intake they start easy.

 

[MacAttack]

When a diesel engine dies due to the use of ether, what sort of damage is involved?

I've never seen it first hand, but have seen several pictures on the internet of broken piston rings, cracked pistons, melted pistons, broken ring grooves, basically pummels the pistons in a diesel if it's used incorrectly. Too much ether, or using in a diesel with glow plugs or a warm engine are a big no-no.

 

[bwalker]

I've never used ether in any 2-stroke because it seems like the equivalent of straight-gassing it, no lubrication for the top end (or bottom end for that matter).
I've used it to start some old gas tractors for years because otherwise they'll just crank for too long until they fire on choke after sitting for a few months. I've never had any damage using starting fluid.
I've seen blown up diesel pistons from ether, but I've never seen a blown up gas engine from it, and you'd probably be hard pressed to find reliable evidence of a 2 stroke getting damaged by it.

A two stroke during cold starting conditions has very little lubrication present. In order for a twonstrokento be properly lubricated the engine must be up to temp so the fuel/oil mix entering the engine changes phase to a vapor and thus depositing the oil on the internal parts. What happens when the engine is cold is you have a ton of liquid droplets entering the engine and not evaporating which washes the oil of the internal parts. This ends up in the crankcase as an oil and gas mixture which has very poor lubricant properties.

 

[Treeman2021]

All you need to do is look at your saws Exhaust port, if you see a mess of dark oily material, your oil to fuel mix is doing a good job.

 

[sean donato]

When a diesel engine dies due to the use of ether, what sort of damage is involved?

Most normal failure mode is a cracked piston, ring (s) or ring land. Usually applies to smaller diesel engines, kubota, yanmar, shibora, Perkins, Mitsubishi, cat, etc all suffer the same fate. Larger engines are much more forgiving, but not invincible to breaking. Steel pistons/ crowns seem much less affected. Most mfg of diesel engines these days do not advocate for starting fluid to be used. There are a few that still offer either start systems, but the days of manually unloading a can are over.(expect for the determined idiot.) Modern diesels just don't need it thanks to electronic fuel management, multi injection events and the ability to control timing basically infinity to crank/cam rotation. Last D-11R I worked on still had a either start system, but wasn't needed even in freezing temps. Besides that, the system was made just about idiot proof. Metered amount of either and would only inject after you started to crank the engine.

 

[bwalker]

All you need to do is look at your saws Exhaust port, if you see a mess of dark oily material, your oil to fuel mix is doing a good job.

No, it just means your not burning cleanly.

 

[HansFranz]

I've wondered about ether in 2T motors, as well.

FWIW, I have been told to try to avoid, as much as possible, ever using ether on my diesels -- and if I ever do use it, to use it very very sparingly. Not sure why (the guy who said this didn't explain why ...)

ETA: I just went back and read MacAttack's and Sean's replies regarding this ... thanks for the explanations fellas.