Drying vs Non-Drying Vegetable Oils

[Boogedy_Man]

I'd offer in response...I am a non-pro user and cost is absolutely a factor for me

Or one could say: if cost is no factor, as appears to be your case, why not just go with a commercially available vegetable based lube?

 

[Boogedy_Man]

Exactly...as per above your number one reason is "cheaper".

 

[GerrySM]

Boogedy, in Australia olive oil is 60c/100ml, and SAE30 is 80c/100ml, and bar oil is $1.48/100ml

What are the prices in your location, North Carolina?

 

[Boogedy_Man]

Opposite. Far cheaper here to run conventional bar oil than vegoil.

My point is the same though...either price matters or it doesn't. It appears it does...and matters a lot.

 

[CR888]

I have near 5lt of rice bran oil I am about to try. Canola has served me well over the years as bar oil, absolutely no complaints as a lubricant. I actually think bar wear has reduced since using it. But I'd love an oil I could use in my occaisional use saws. Of the 25+ saws I own, less than 10 get used daily/weekly including 2 pole saws. So having a non petrolium oil that I'd be confident using in old saws like my Contra, Partners etc would be good. FWIW, I've never had an issue with canola in a sealed container/oiler tank. Its only when it has been thinly coated on bars/chains/trimmer blades that it siezes up to stiff gum. Injecting grease into nose sprockets before storing them has prevented any bearing seizures. Sealed nose sprockets like Stihl bars just need a blast out with water & dried before storing. I have about 100ish bars too, which are all cleaned and stacked flat.

 

[GerrySM]

either price matters or it doesn't. It appears it does...and matters a lot.

Seriously though, Boogedy, I only checked the prices when you raised it. I was surprised that olive oil is the cheapest in Australia. Price is not THE key issue for me. I want a non-carcinogenic, non-toxic, easy to wash out of clothes, free from additives, relatively cheap, non-plant harming oil that DOES NOT DRY ON MY EQUIPMENT. That's the key.

Bar oil fails some of those tests.

So having a non petrolium oil that I'd be confident using in old saws

Join me by trying olive oil. Rice bran is 88-105, so it can be a semi-drying oil.

 

[Boogedy_Man]

I don't know, in that case.

I felt peanut oil did start to thicken under my clutch cover and inside my helper handle. I'm not entirely sure, but it did seem to glaze up and was harder to clean than regular bar oil and sawdust after just a couple days. I did not persue because it wasn't cost effective for me. It's not gravity feed friendly for a mill, either. It was totally noticeable that it gums up the hollow bolt.

I've been exposed to so much garbage over the years that the toxicity of bar oil is of little concern.

When health does becomes a concern I'll cut back to 2 1/2 packs a day and consider vegoil again.

 

[Jed1124]

I save enough money every year to buy a new pro saw. When doing a removal over a pond or waterway, you don't contaminat the water and leave bright colorful swirls on the surface. Noodles from blocking can be used as plant mulch keeping moisture in the soil. My hands don't itch and get irritated anymore. Lubricates the bar better in 'my opinion'. When your bar oil jug falls over the resident dog comes & licks it up. I thought this was a trick question, but there you go.

Not a trick question, and I appreciate your reply. I never considered using it, maybe I should.

 

[GerrySM]

I felt peanut oil did start to thicken under my clutch cover

Peanut oil is almost a semi-drying oil (iodine value up to 99, some sources [wikipedia] say up to 106, whereas iodine values over 100 are semi-drying). And if you are using pre-used oils, such as from a restaurant fryer, all bets are off. Used oils that have been boiled are heavily oxidised.

 

[Boogedy_Man]

Mine wasn't used, and it was actually a peanut oil "blend" now that I think about it. It's really all speculation, though. I didn't give this a fair enough shot to say anything for sure other than that the aux oiler gummed up. With gravity feed that's almost expected. Like I said, the gunk under the clutch cover seemed harder, but it could have been because I feared exactly that. There weren't any major problems either way...6 one way and 1/2 dozen the other. In the end, if I had a ton of vegoil I'd probably still be running it.

 

[GerrySM]

Mine wasn't used, and it was actually a peanut oil "blend" now that I think about it.

There's your problem. Peanut oil blends contain soybean oil, and soybean oil is a drying oil (iodine value > 130).

Try with plain peanut or better yet, olive.

 

[crotchclimber]

The company I work for has used soybean oil for years. It makes a complete mess of the saws, gums up with sawdust all over the internals and exteriors of the saws, and it very hard to clean off. They do it mainly because it is cheap (less than half the cost). Canola is usually a few cents more than soybean and isn't often available in gallon jugs. We use the saws 5 days a week and even then I've had to replace multiple oil pumps. We go through a lot of bars too. Other than drying I think the main problem is the viscosity is so low it's not suitable for long bars. I doubt it's doing much lubricating on 36" and 48" bars. If I'm running one of my personal saws at work I bring regular bar oil or sometimes mineral oil USP which is expensive but non-toxic. I've used Stihl Bio-plus which is not only expensive but will harden if left stored for a long time. Also with veg oil expect mouse poop all over your saws because they will eat it.

 

[Justsaws]

Olive oil was new in metal gallon containers, 6 gallons to a case and in date. People often give things to others people to test theories, and plans. It is a common occurrence, sometimes even fun. Peppermint scented bar lube, awesome until it gets hot and stuff.

Do you really think that you are the first person to look at a list of oils and wonder gee if that would work?

There were at least 6 different brands of bio-lube availible to me in the tiny little area that I live in. Prices were/are way out of line with reality. Other than the folks that "have" to use it for whatever compliance reason they have it does not sell, it is a dedicated shelf sitter, those that can and want to simply use one of the other plant oils.

Forgot about the mouse poop. Yeah, there can be mouse poop.

 

[Jeffkrib]

Mixing bio with mineral is a guarentee for gelling problems..

7 Sleeper how reliable is your source on this issue, have you heard this multiple times? Not questioning you knowledge just haven't heard of this before.
Canola could have polymerised due to other factors. Oil going hard seams to be a black art in the chainsaw forums. It's not a black art as there would be science behind it, its just that chainsaw users wouldn't know the exact root cause when their oil goes all hard and gummy.

 

[GerrySM]

The company I work for has used soybean oil for years. It makes a complete mess of the saws, gums up with sawdust all over the internals and exteriors of the saws, and it very hard to clean off

Since soybean is a drying oil (high iodine value), that's entirely to be expected. It's totally unsuitable for chainsaw use.

Olive oil was new in metal gallon containers, 6 gallons to a case and in date.

I'll add your anecdotal evidence as a data point. The oil you tested, which you remember as new, fresh olive oil, dried on your equipment. I'll see if I can replicate your experience.

Do you really think that you are the first person to look at a list of oils and wonder gee if that would work?

Since nobody else has actually looked at the science of vegetable oils on this forum before (as Google will verify), including iodine values, then yes, I am the first.

 

[7sleeper]

7 Sleeper how reliable is your source on this issue, have you heard this multiple times? Not questioning you knowledge just haven't heard of this before.
Canola could have polymerised due to other factors. Oil going hard seams to be a black art in the chainsaw forums. It's not a black art as there would be science behind it, its just that chainsaw users wouldn't know the exact root cause when their oil goes all hard and gummy.

It is my experience! Further in a german chainsaw forum, a few members have had the same problem. And I have about a gallon of gelled up bar oil in the shed that I still haven't thrown away.

To be again clear again, I am talking about store bought bio bar lube mixing with store bought mineral oil. NOT about any other mixtures.

My suspision is that it actually has nothing to do with the oil but with the tackifiers. It is rumored to be some type of latex and my suspision is actually that some type of polymerasation is happening. I might add that my experience is a few years old and that the top brands are supposed to have better components to inhibit this happening. But I have never tried mixing again.

Another thing not really mentioned is that pure canola oil should only be used on bars up to ~20 inch length, after that the lubricating properties without the tackifiers is simply not enough on the bottom side of the bar.

7

 

[Jeffkrib]

Thanks 7 ... Always happy to learn from others mistakes. A quick rinse takes a couple of seconds, a full strip down and clean is a big PITA.

 

[GerrySM]

Another thing not really mentioned is that pure canola oil should only be used on bars up to ~20 inch length, after that the lubricating properties without the tackifiers is simply not enough on the bottom side of the bar.

Interesting .... source for that? Your opinion or a result of a published test?

 

[Justsaws]

Non branded, labeled 100% pure extra virgin olive oil, batch number and inventory info.

Anyhoo, get some samples of oil, get some thin non treated open paper.

Cut paper into strips.
Saturate a strip in each type of oil.
Cover the strips in fresh saws dust of the tree types that you would be cutting, make sure saw dust is also oil saturated, rub it in there.
Heat the strips up to the temperature that the sprockets and bar rails cutting surface reach during your average cutting experience, temp gun the parts, surprising variable. Humidity needs to be accounted for, might need to add some water to the oven depending on your climate and wood type.
Cook the strips for the length of time your average cutting experience lasts.
Remove strips from oven and hang near where the saw is stored.
Check on strips periodically until average length of time between saw uses has passed.
Use the oil that corresponds to the most flexible strip, retaining the most saw dust while it flexs. If the dust hardens and falls off it will harden on the chain, bar and saw.

It will help eliminate some choices. Cheapy food grade corn oil and cheapy food grade soybean for example.

In terms of the oil tank, get some containers roughly the same size as the oil tank on your saw.
Fill them up with the average amount of oil you leave in your saw during storage.
Pop a hole in the containers similar to the tank vent in the saw, or just use tank vents.
Toss in some fresh saw dust, if you did not clean out the petroleum oil first put some of that in as well.
Depending on saw, it might be a good idea to heat up the oils to average tank in use temp for the duration of the average use.
Place containers near where saw is stored, check on containers when saw is going to be used.

I used glass containers with plastic lids and tank vents. UV needs to be accounted for if storing in glass containers, most plant oils are not very UV stable, olive oil for example. I was told that the commercial plant based bar oils were also not very UV stable.

Get some weirdo oils, check ph values first...
Go nuts.

 

[GerrySM]

Justsaws

Naw, I'll just run the saws with olive oil and see how I go . I'll soon see drying, if it occurs.

Cook the strips for the length of time your average cutting experience lasts.

BTW, forget about all the heating nonsense; the modern chainsaw’s “total loss lubricating system” releases the oil from the bar tip once it has travelled around the bar a few times, and the atomized oil particles cling to the sawdust or spray over the work area. When a chain saw is used, virtually all of the lubricant ends up in the environment. And there is no time for the oil to "cook" in our little experiment.