Enforcing Safety

[Tree Pig]

Whether you agree with what BCMA did or not, is beside the point. As industries evolve, the culture of safety evolves at great cost, both physically to employees and economically. OSHA rules for logging operations which arboriculture falls under, were developed in response to fatalities or patterns of serious injury. Sure, those two gentlemen may be earning a living, but at what cost? To disregard established safe working practices is short sighted. Their $9 or $10 an hour will do little to offset the average cost of a saw injury. Then where are they? To compare what they are doing to conditions 100 years ago whilst claiming that your forefathers would prefer losing a limb is irrelevant and disingenuous. I cannot pretend to understand what is in another man's heart, but I suspect they would prefer to be intact in order to provide for their families.

OSHA has had some trouble with the Tree Industry. They tried to lump us in with logging operations, but it became clear that we don't quite fit there. As of right now, they are not issuing citations for certain violations. "...Until these discussions have produced further resolution of the compliance issues affecting arborists, citations for violations of 1910.266 shall not be issued to employers in SIC 0783 who are not engaged in logging operations". From http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25041.

If you are worried about citations, familiarize yourself with their laws and who is capable of issuing citations. Don't act like a victim of government rules that are for the protection of employees. I don't really understand how someone can defend improperly training employees and not providing them with the appropriate PPE to keep them productive. The alternative is simply a poor business decision.

Brent Jenkins
Denver, CO

Your absolutely wrong, this thread isnt about if them guys are wrong with their work practices. Its about weather BCMA was a little tattle tail punk to hide across a parking lot and take picture of them two idiots and turn them in. Then post some pics of his super crew doing stuff that in fact is far more dangerous then what they were doing.

This may not of been the intent of BCMA when he started this POS thread but thats what it has evolved to, so next time try and follow along before you toss your two cents in. From reading your reply your very knowledgeable in the area and most likely formed your opinion before you really read this thread... If you read any of it at all. In my honest opinion BCMA is MORALLY wrong in his actions in the way he handle the situation. If he was so concerned about their practices stop and take 5 minutes to educate these lads, A. about safety and B. about the potential fines for the way they are working. In many countries in the world Government Informants would be killed if caught, so why would someone post that here and think its socially acceptable.

 

[ozzy42]

Go to this post on Crane Job

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047

He actaully posted pics with him or his guy cutting a big fir with a single tie in and one of his people running a saw mill with zero PPE on.


Hers a picture of his new house.

Hes out rounding up a bunch of new stones now.

Repped you for pointing out the total hypocricy of OP






Give washington another 20 yrs,and they will have mandated regulations on how to make a PBJ sandwich.







BTW,did anybody send the pics from the crane job link to OSHA?

 

[GlenWimpy]

Repped you for pointing out the total hypocricy of OP






Give washington another 20 yrs,and they will have mandated regulations on how to make a PBJ sandwich.







BTW,did anybody send the pics from the crane job link to OSHA?

I'm sending text and pics of this entire thread to " king obama '!

 

[Curlycherry1]

EDIT Here just for you I fixed my sig... Happy?

Yep, happy as a clam.

Snopes is a darn good source for checking on things. Even in the very rare cases they get something wrong they are very quick to change it once they verify it. I saw the same quote attributed to Stormin Normin in another forum and it caused at big rukus over there. No sense in seeing the same thing over here.

 

[Curlycherry1]

In many countries in the world Government Informants would be killed if caught, so why would someone post that here and think its socially acceptable.

But herein lies the problem. In places like China, India, Bangladesh they ignore safety and environmental standards and they pay their workers next to nothing. Those places make stuff that takes our jobs away from us because we are safe and we don't just dump used chemicals into our drinking water. Yet, when faced with competition from these countries, every red blooded American beyotches up a storm that it is unfair. Because nobody does any inspections and enforcement in those countries they are allowed to continue and compete unfairly against us. They work at a lower level that we cannot work and compete at.

I know how much good safety equipment costs and the disposal costs of wood debris can be very expensive these days. Think how much easier everyone could compete if they use used bailing rope for climbing, and at the end of the job they just drove to the outskirts of town and dumped the wood on the side of the road. That is the kind of stuff that happens in places where there are no laws or they are not enforced.

It has been shown hundreds of thousands of times in the business world that when people keep lowering prices to compete they all get to a point where the work or the product is a commodity and nobody makes any money. The granite countertop business where I live is like that now. 10-15 years ago it was hard to find granite fabricators and to get quotes from them and their prices varied quite a bit. I got 5 quotes for my contertops three years ago. All of them were delivered to me within 4 hours of faxing the drawings in to the fabricators. From lowest to highest price there was only a difference of $500 on a ~$5k job. That is a commodity and it all happened in <10 years because everybody with a wet saw and a grinder started a granite business.

If we let one group sink to a lower level they will drag everyone down with them. Just a thought. If we don't police ourselves then that allows more unscrupulous people to slip through the cracks and get away with what they do longer and thus justify it.

One final point, how would folks react if those workers were of a group that was obviously not US Citizens and they were here illegally? Would that change their opinion? Something to ruminate on.

 

[BRCCArborist]

But herein lies the problem. In places like China, India, Bangladesh they ignore safety and environmental standards and they pay their workers next to nothing. Those places make stuff that takes our jobs away from us because we are safe and we don't just dump used chemicals into our drinking water. Yet, when faced with competition from these countries, every red blooded American beyotches up a storm that it is unfair. Because nobody does any inspections and enforcement in those countries they are allowed to continue and compete unfairly against us. They work at a lower level that we cannot work and compete at.

Actually I don't complain about the quality at all, I just don't buy it. I All my tools, my truck, my furniture, etc, are of quality American and European craftmanship. I make the conscious effort not to buy garbage from China or India or wherever. Of course, I pay for this quality as well. Same thing with the clients my company serves. They pay top price for our quality work and we deliver. I can assure you that Joe Pickup truck will never work on those properties. My company has neither the time nor the need to worry about clients who want a lowball price. Thus, we have neither the time nor the need to be creeps and take pictures of lowball workers.

 

[Curlycherry1]

I make the conscious effort not to buy garbage from China or India or wherever. Of course, I pay for this quality as well.

But, you are becomming the minority. Walmart has thrived by selling stuff made by ever cheaper suppliers. They started out selling Am made stuff but when US companies could no longer give Wally World the prices they wanted they went to China and other low ball countries to get what they wanted. Now most of the stuff Wally sells is made in China. The few Am suppliers left that sell to Walmart loathe them for their constant pressure on price. It can really suck to be a Walmart supplier, but if you want to sell a lot of a product, you have to at least try to keep up with their game. Big respectable US companies have gone bankrupt due to Walmart and their policies. In a race to the bottom nobody wins.

 

[BRCCArborist]

But, you are becomming the minority. Walmart has thrived by selling stuff made by ever cheaper suppliers. They started out selling Am made stuff but when US companies could no longer give Wally World the prices they wanted they went to China and other low ball countries to get what they wanted. Now most of the stuff Wally sells is made in China. The few Am suppliers left that sell to Walmart loathe them for their constant pressure on price. It can really suck to be a Walmart supplier, but if you want to sell a lot of a product, you have to at least try to keep up with their game. Big respectable US companies have gone bankrupt due to Walmart and their policies. In a race to the bottom nobody wins.

Being a Wal-Mart supplier may be a race to the bottom, High end arborist work is not. Like I said , I have no time to mess with lowball clients or lowballers in general, I will continue to serve the minority that wants quality work and is willing to pay for it. As long as my coworkers and myself are playing by the rules and being safe, I really don't care what others are doing. I'm and arborist, not a private investigator.

 

[Tree Pig]

BTW,did anybody send the pics from the crane job link to OSHA?

No I would never do such I thing, my parents raised me to be a MAN, and if I see something wrong, to confront the person doing it and attempt to change it. A lesson a few of the HALL MONITORS around here never got. And to think I use to stick up for these guys on the playground

 

[treeseer]

"And there wasn't anything wrong with what those guys were doing. . . Your way isn't the only way--there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. Who was injured in those pics? What property damage was done? What heinous crime was committed? Those two made enough dough to make it through another day in this jacked-up economy, and probably brought dinner home for the family."

There we go; shrug and blame unsafe substandard work on "the economy", the loser's excuse. As Flip Wilson said, "the devil made me do it". Or Outback steakhouse, "No Rules, just Eat"? So the standard is, full belly = Success. This lowers the bar to the floor, doesn't it?

In a race to the bottom nobody wins.

Exactly.

 

[Bermie]

Safety, standards, work ethic......

Maybe BCMA should have gone to them or their boss first...whatever you think or don't of what he did....

Those guys in the pictures are contributing to higher insurance premiums, the appearance of dumbing down our profession, shortening their expected lifespan (chance of a bad accident) and limiting their earning potential (by not being taught or learning how to do this properly and therefore able to command a higher price)

I have OFTEN stopped on the side of the road to talk to Government crews working badly, safety and technique...the guys just say 'that's what we've been told to do' 'just got to get the job done'...I have taken pictures...sent polite but firm emails to the relevant superintendants...what happens...a big fat NOTHING! Next stop will be the newspaper and the talk show...I've given you the chance to solve this in house, offered my services, even been engaged to train some of them, but they STILL ignore best practice.

Time for the gloves to come off, because they are publicly putting a bad face on what I have chosen to have as a career and invested time and money to get right!!

 

[Rftreeman]

Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.

If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.

can I get a amen brotha...

and insurance FRAUD contributes to higher rates more than injuries do..........


I hope those guys are members here and hunt you down and kick your ass.....

 

[Curlycherry1]

My garage doors were made by a small 6-8 man cabinet shop that is run by an American yet he only employs Mexicans or other folks from South of the border. Why? Because he said they work hard but more importantly they follow EVERY single safety requirement to the letter. He said he was inspected several times and never once did he have any issues at all. They want to make sure they are there for their familes and be able to support their families, and accidents prevent them from giving that support. He said they would come to him with suggestions to make things safer and better and they would get cranky if he did not follow through.

He said all the Americans he had through the years only cared about getting to Friday and their beer. As an American empolyeer he said it was sad, but he was done with hiring American workers.

We had a skidder operator that worked with us a lot and he never wore a hardhat. As a driver he said there was no need because he was off the skidder maybe 5-10 times per day. That all ended one day when he was bent over to pick up a dropped tool in the woods and a 4" diameter maple tree fell over and hit him on the back of the head. We kept him alive until he could reach the hospital where he died in surgery. 30+ Years that guy worked in the woods with no problems. He left a widow and 7 kids under the age of 14.

 

[Tree Pig]

My garage doors were made by a small 6-8 man cabinet shop that is run by an American yet he only employs Mexicans or other folks from South of the border. Why? Because he said they work hard but more importantly they follow EVERY single safety requirement to the letter. He said he was inspected several times and never once did he have any issues at all. They want to make sure they are there for their familes and be able to support their families, and accidents prevent them from giving that support. He said they would come to him with suggestions to make things safer and better and they would get cranky if he did not follow through.

He said all the Americans he had through the years only cared about getting to Friday and their beer. As an American empolyeer he said it was sad, but he was done with hiring American workers.

Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker. Does he have the right to do so? Yes as long as they are legal workers but I would bet thats doubtful. If you purchase anything from him your part of the problem.

If as a Employer or supervisor you can not get your employees or subordinates to do their job and were the PPE you require then maybe your the problem.

Your other story is a said one but his supervisor takes part of the blame.

 

[BRCCArborist]

Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker. Does he have the right to do so? Yes as long as they are legal workers but I would bet thats doubtful. If you purchase anything from him your part of the problem.

If as a Employer or supervisor you can not get your employees or subordinates to do their job and were the PPE you require then maybe your the problem.

Your other story is a said one but his supervisor takes part of the blame.

It also sounds like pretty blatant discrimination on the cabinet shop owners part as well.

 

[Curlycherry1]

Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker.

He told me he pays them the exact same wages he would pay anyone. Where they are from does not matter the pay according to him. I have no reason to doubt him because he had a top of the line shop with all the best equipment and it was all in primo shape. You could eat off the floors it was so clean. There were none of the typical junk beater cars in the parking lot either, so his claim to be paying well seemed to be supported, unless his workers were not parking in his parking lot.

 

[Curlycherry1]

Your other story is a said one but his supervisor takes part of the blame.

He was an independent contractor hired by the land clearning outfit. The outfit paid $3/tree to us to drop and top the trees, and the skidder got some amount per tree to yank them to a landing. The land clearing outfit was run by a shady guy that basically said "I write a check and how the work gets done is up to the people doing it, not me."

That is probably the same attitude the folks that hired those kids in the beginning of this thread would say.

 

[Curlycherry1]

It also sounds like pretty blatant discrimination on the cabinet shop owners part as well.

Being a woodworker I had gone to his shop to see some samples in his showroom and being a woodworker I could not prevent myself from asking for a tour of the shop to see how the doors were made. I was very interested in making sure the connections were well made and that proper adhesives were being used. Upon seeing all the workers I made comment and he then told me his reasoning. He said flat out if he could find folks willing to work like those guys did he would hire them. They were all legal, he said that was mandatory. He said he had just let go an American just a few weeks before because on a Friday at lunch the guy had stopped at a bar and had a beer. That was his 3rd time at doing that so the boss said he had to go.

The shop owner was almost apologetic about his workers, but as he said, I turn them loose and there is ZERO babysitting on my part, none.

 

[Metals406]

"And there wasn't anything wrong with what those guys were doing. . . Your way isn't the only way--there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. Who was injured in those pics? What property damage was done? What heinous crime was committed? Those two made enough dough to make it through another day in this jacked-up economy, and probably brought dinner home for the family."

There we go; shrug and blame unsafe substandard work on "the economy", the loser's excuse. As Flip Wilson said, "the devil made me do it". Or Outback steakhouse, "No Rules, just Eat"? So the standard is, full belly = Success. This lowers the bar to the floor, doesn't it?

I wasn't blaming the economy for the way those two were working. . . Fail on your part, for not being able to correctly read a paragraph.

I asked What property damage was done? Who was injured? And what heinous crime was committed? But of course, you ignore the question, and read into it what you want.

Besides making up a bunch of "what if's", you can't tell me what they did wrong, because they didn't do anything wrong. You want to hold them to your standards, like it's the only way things are done. So how were they unsafe again? You can't tell me if those two have ever had an injury or accident. They could have a squeaky clean working-safety record.

They seemed to have safely completed the work. . . Hence no property damage, no injuries, and no crime. But instead, you've been brainwashed to think it's your Right to control the way they work. You think you have a safety badge, and you need to punish others for things they haven't even done yet. They "might" have an accident, they "might" have an injury.

And you also assume they "Low Balled" the work. . . How do you know they weren't charging 25-30 bucks an hour? That's a damn good wage. Were they uninsured? You don't know, and the OP doesn't know.

I'll let you get back to your binoculars, so you can make sure your neighbors are being "safe".

 

[ozzy42]

No I would never do such I thing, my parents raised me to be a MAN, and if I see something wrong, to confront the person doing it and attempt to change it. A lesson a few of the HALL MONITORS around here never got. And to think I use to stick up for these guys on the playground

Nor would I.
I was just pilling on the sarcasm,and pointing out the irony of the OP.