EPA wanting to rule on use of wood heaters

[naturelover]

Gees, where's my tinfoil hat?

Ahh, the old screw thy neighbor, unless thy are the neighbor...

Yes, I even burnt my old WM 520 without any smoke a lot of the time, doesn't mean it was anywhere near as efficient or clean as my 30 is. Sure didn't seem as efficient, as much wood as I was feeding it.

And as smoked up as it is around parts of our area, I'd say most everyone doesn't know how to operate their smoke dragons. Suppose everyone else has to pay for it.

Those people are the ones scorn should be directed at, not those who enact legislation to try and stop it.

And even as a "tree hugging hippie", I don't want to see wood stoves banned, it's one of the few sustainable and renewable resources we have.

I do want my stove to be a clean burning, efficient model, that uses as few wood resources as possible. I also wonder though without regulation, whether or not that would have been an option..

Regardless of regulations, if everyone tried to even just burn in a way that was considerate of others, maybe we won't get to a point where wood burning is banned altogether.




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[Woody912]

jebatty,
That's some of the most fictional, leftest, load of drivel I've read in months.
Some points of fact about "rights"...

• FACT - Nowhere in the Constitution are you, or anyone else, guaranteed the right to clean air... but you are at liberty to move to a place with cleaner air if you so choose.
• FACT - There isn't anything wrong with a local government putting in place a law, ordinance or regulation if the majority of residents support it... those not happy with it are at liberty to move to a place more to their liking. But nowhere is the Federal Government authorized to do so.
• FACT - Although you do have certain private property "rights", nowhere in the Constitution are you, or anyone else, guaranteed the "right to be free of neighbors' smoking stoves". Neither are you, or anyone else, guaranteed the right to "enjoy his/her private property rights to the fullest... but you are guaranteed the right to pursue happiness. "Private Property Rights" are granted locally, not by the Constitution... the Constitution only leaves you at liberty to own property in your pursuit of happiness. If the rights of one property owner clash with the rights of another than it is up to local government to sort it out, whether by a compromise solution, enforcement of local code, use of the court system, or whatever... it flat ain't the job of Federal Government to protect property rights or preempt possible clashes of them.
• FACT - Your last sentence is nothing but flat ignorance of the differences between rights and liberties... you would be much more credible in your arguments if you took the time to learn the difference. Regulation, by it's very definition, removes liberties... any argument to the contrary is foolish. And that is the very reason why the Constitution strictly limits the Federal Government's power of regulation.

*

I'm willing to make a small wager that jeblatty owns zero chain saws, does not worry about heat bills because mom does not charge him utilities for living in her basement and is merely a troll for some ecoterrorist group or Occupy Portland or some other group that does nothing to support themselves. I would also point out that under Indiana law anything that I do to surface water running across my property becomes the problem of my downhill neighbor and he has no recourse against me so his property line "rights" don't seem to stand up under that situation

 

[zogger]

Gees, where's my tinfoil hat?

Ahh, the old screw thy neighbor, unless thy are the neighbor...

Yes, I even burnt my old WM 520 without any smoke a lot of the time, doesn't mean it was anywhere near as efficient or clean as my 30 is. Sure didn't seem as efficient, as much wood as I was feeding it.

And as smoked up as it is around parts of our area, I'd say most everyone doesn't know how to operate their smoke dragons. Suppose everyone else has to pay for it.

Those people are the ones scorn should be directed at, not those who enact legislation to try and stop it.

And even as a "tree hugging hippie", I don't want to see wood stoves banned, it's one of the few sustainable and renewable resources we have.

I do want my stove to be a clean burning, efficient model, that uses as few wood resources as possible. I also wonder though without regulation, whether or not that would have been an option..

Regardless of regulations, if everyone tried to even just burn in a way that was considerate of others, maybe we won't get to a point where wood burning is banned altogether.




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Well, we all want cleaner air and water. I will agree with you and I’m an old hippie myself, alt energy proponent and so on.

with that said, it is blatantly obvious that in some circumstances, the epa throws the baby out with the bathwater, especially when it comes to the little guy.

Look at that latest big river damage and screwing up the water in west Virginia. This corporation-follow the bread crumbs and it is a Koch outfit-is allowed to just declare bankruptcy and walk away so far. but then you can find examples where they will come down hard like a load of bricks on some poor schmoo has a seasonal mud puddle that conflicts with the three eyed flying newt. It's nuts. We have the government allowing jobs to go offshore, manufactured goods coming back in huge cargo ships, from factories running at the 1950s level at best, air floating this way, being hauled here on cargo container ships burning bunker fuel, any around two of them putting out more harmful stuff into the atmosphere than all the two strokes in the US combined. So we get choked up bad running easy to burn out gear, they can keep the wall street profits up. Same air, ain't it?

nuts. It's a conjob being pushed on paid off bribed off junk science.

We *do* need some good air quality and water quality deals, absolutely, I remember chunky styled yellow smog air back in most any city you visited, but what they have morphed into is harmful.

Same dudes don't seem to care 50 zillion acres burn up out west all the time every summer. Same air. Tiny fraction of all the wood burned for home heating. Gov regs won't allow much in the way of logging anymore, they want the fireroads closed off, no underbrush clearing from grazing, that keeps getting restricted, but oh noes, some guy has a wood heater that might smoke some./aaargh....

It's a drop in the bucket compared to what they encourage and allow. It's a scam. Started out with political feel goodism, turned into what all gov deals turn into, a jobs and welfare program for billionaires and keeps one of the wings of the globalist party elected.

Yes there are examples of how the other wing of the globalist party keeps getting their stooges and sock puppets elected, same deal, the big head fake to their supporters. meh, that's why I got no truck with either of them, crooks, conmen, liars.

I think this union has run its course and needs to collapse, like the USSR did. Too corrupt too stupid too harmful, not getting a penny worth of service for every buck they squeeze out for this alleged governing. Jobs program/economic and political power over the serfs.

That's why I don't do politics, because it is a lie, this is all about money and power. To someones and somewheres.

 

[Dirtboy]

Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms (ATF) is a govt. agency!!??- Here all this time I thought it was a convenience store

 

[NSMaple1]

Some of this stuff is pretty sad - guys who don't give a crap about what runs down stream to their neighbours, or what they spit out their stacks and blows into them.

I have no issues with guys burning with good practices in old burners, I really don't, I have lots of friends who do that and I used to myself - but some of these 'don't give a **** about my neighbour' attitudes are exactly why the EPA is looking to come out with a big hammer. It's those few bad apples who are ruining it for everyone who burns wood. And I'm far from a tree hugger - I'm always looking for wood candidates to take the saw to. Don't think I've ever been called a hippy before either - first time for everything I guess.

 

[naturelover]

Zogg, I'd tend to agree.

Good example is the West Virginia water situation, there is no way there shouldn't have been some sort of regulations (or punishment if there was) in place to ensure those tanks were inspected more than what they were. They've been there for year without inspection, and truth be known, have probably been leaking much longer than what was recently detected. I think they are trying to put something into place, but even that being held up in local government.

Yes, they do over-reach sometimes, and I'm not sure cracking down on chainsaws and woodstoves is where major efforts should be. But given the big money thrown around by the major industry polluters, I suppose one picks and chooses their battles.

But if we have the attitude that we shouldn't do anything because China isn't, then China will see it the same way. Maybe it wouldn't matter anyway, but we can lead by example. Course its getting so bad over there now though, that it seems that some progress could possibly be made in clean air efforts regardless.

The problem is that curtailing pollution costs money, with no, or very little, profit from implementing systems to reduce it. Without some regulations, unfair as they may be, there's probably not many that would implement those systems on their own.

Or check to make sure their chemical storage tanks aren't leaking one mile upstream of a drinking water intake for 300,000 people....

 

[zogger]

Zogg, I'd tend to agree.

Good example is the West Virginia water situation, there is no way there shouldn't have been some sort of regulations (or punishment if there was) in place to ensure those tanks were inspected more than what they were. They've been there for year without inspection, and truth be known, have probably been leaking much longer than what was recently detected. I think they are trying to put something into place, but even that being held up in local government.

Yes, they do over-reach sometimes, and I'm not sure cracking down on chainsaws and woodstoves is where major efforts should be. But given the big money thrown around by the major industry polluters, I suppose one picks and chooses their battles.

But if we have the attitude that we shouldn't do anything because China isn't, then China will see it the same way. Maybe it wouldn't matter anyway, but we can lead by example. Course its getting so bad over there now though, that it seems that some progress could possibly be made in clean air efforts regardless.

The problem is that curtailing pollution costs money, with no, or very little, profit from implementing systems to reduce it. Without some regulations, unfair as they may be, there's probably not many that would implement those systems on their own.

Or check to make sure their chemical storage tanks aren't leaking one mile upstream of a drinking water intake for 300,000 people....

Yep, they epic failed on keeping their business confined to their business. True property rights stop at your property border. Nothing ambiguous about it. I'm all for rights, and rights come with duty and responsibility.

As to the china question, I have yet to see a rational argument why we shouldn't have *at least* quid quo pro tariffs with them, and everyone else. Let them set the rates, we match it. Ball is in their court then. That would dramatically slow down the cheap junk from here and there and encourage domestic industry again.

And if they insist on sales taxes for us peons, when we buy stuff, I wanna see a transaction sales tax on wall street flash trades, slow that nutso stuff down as well.

 

[naturelover]

Hmm, an interesting article. Apparently in some places it is in the state's hands...

http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/fea...hing-ban-on-woodburning-stoves-and-fireplaces

 

[jimbojango]

Zogg, I'd tend to agree.

Good example is the West Virginia water situation, there is no way there shouldn't have been some sort of regulations (or punishment if there was) in place to ensure those tanks were inspected more than what they were. They've been there for year without inspection, and truth be known, have probably been leaking much longer than what was recently detected. I think they are trying to put something into place, but even that being held up in local government.

Yes, they do over-reach sometimes, and I'm not sure cracking down on chainsaws and woodstoves is where major efforts should be. But given the big money thrown around by the major industry polluters, I suppose one picks and chooses their battles.

But if we have the attitude that we shouldn't do anything because China isn't, then China will see it the same way. Maybe it wouldn't matter anyway, but we can lead by example. Course its getting so bad over there now though, that it seems that some progress could possibly be made in clean air efforts regardless.

The problem is that curtailing pollution costs money, with no, or very little, profit from implementing systems to reduce it. Without some regulations, unfair as they may be, there's probably not many that would implement those systems on their own.

Or check to make sure their chemical storage tanks aren't leaking one mile upstream of a drinking water intake for 300,000 people....

I'd rather breathe in smoke from a wood stove than drink a chemical that kills me... all day everyday

 

[jebatty]

I'm willing to make a small wager that jeblatty owns zero chain saws, does not worry about heat bills because mom does not charge him utilities for living in her basement and is merely a troll for some ecoterrorist group or Occupy Portland or some other group that does nothing to support themselves.

My natural reaction would be to attack your character, but I understand that character attacks are resorted to when a person has an otherwise baseless point of view. Instead, I will support your First Amendment right of freedom of speech, even in this case, regardless of the blatant lack of truth in what you say. Have a nice day.

 

[zogger]

Hmm, an interesting article. Apparently in some places it is in the state's hands...

http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/fea...hing-ban-on-woodburning-stoves-and-fireplaces

Only 200 woodburners in the whole state, not counting part time cabins. Then they want to ban burning during the coldest months...hmmm

I am wondering about this, but have no personal frame of reference, just seems sorta lowball, but who knows.

Guess it is easier to pick on a small number of people to achieve a 5% reduction in particulates.

How about they make all the government vehicles run on propane or natgas, lead by example instead.

 

[pennsywoodburnr]

It's way easier to just go after the 200 than it is to deal with all the vehicle pollution. What did that article say? Vehicles accounted for like 60%, and the wood burners for 5%?? I'm willing to bet most of the people heating with wood probably don't have the time, resources, or money to fight something like this, so whatever powers that be that are out in Utah will likely see that as an easy win. "Yay, I reduced the pollution by 5%, vote for me again!" Like a lot of the other guys on here have been saying, over-reaching g'ment is only part of the problem. Population is the other part. There are just too many people too close together. They crammed all of these houses damn near one on top of the other and expect the people who burn to heat their family to just stop and roll over for whatever feel good agenda might be going into place? Out here where I live in PA we have a lot of wood burners, I see the smoke commuting to and from work. I can smell it sometimes even if I can't see it just based on how the wind is pushing things around. What helps though is that most of these homes have enough of a buffer around them in the form of trees or outright space that nobody is complaining. Yeah, let's blame the inversion out in Utah as the reason we're doing this. For as long as those inversions have been there, I'm willing to bet people have been there just as long burning, and it never seemed to be an issue before now. Which brings me back to my point, too many people in one area.

 

[bullrider]

I drove a truck for 24 years.Been up and down these hyways a lot,the amount of cars and trucks on the road is unreal.Look up sometime at all the chem trails in the sky.Some people don't have the means to afford other means to heat their homes,are they suppose to freeze in the dead of winter when they have acess to wood???Every body don't make 50-75-100 k a year.So don't set here and tell me that an oak tree gives of the poison that leer jets,passanger airlines,the millions and millions of automobiles and big trucks release into the air everyday.Maybe just maybe as a nation we have gotten a little above our raisins,maybe we should suffer, then maybe we might relies what is important and what isn't.Money is the root of all evil,and their is a lot of evil trying to dictate us,with the support of an ignorant populas.By the way I live off my land as much as possiable , I cook on a home comfort wood stove every day,i do have a pu truck that has not been cranked in 2 weeks ,and 3 chainssaws .Ihave never rode a airplane,i don't burn heating oil,(diesel oil ; bad),and I don't drive unnesscerily. People as a whole are really confused and brain washed and above their raisians.We are in real trouble!!!!

 

[olyman]

All alphabet agnts should be abolished IRS, EPA, DEA, ATF etc.
If i want to heat my home with a stove that burns nothing but baby seal carcasses i should be able to. This whole govt is corupt and exists only to serve themselves.
Let it burn.

straight up!!

 

[olyman]

For all those blasting the EPA, how should the general public be protected? History clearly shows industries, intentional or not, do not regulate themselves if it hurts profits. States are too influenced by industry lobbyists, as the latest example in W VA has demonstrated. If your water source for drinking, cooking, showering, fishing, etc., was jeopardized like that and the responsible party is allowed to declare bankruptcy, what would your reaction be? Just curious.

just curious,,how long you've been a gov lover???

 

[olyman]

The EPA was created by that well known lefty, Richard Nixon. I wonder what he was thinking? So where in the Constitution are fishing and hunting regulations covered?

and a leftist also.......off track....

 

[olyman]

Why do you care... its not cancer causing, its not foul odored and you must be a tree hugging hippie pile of crap to worry about it. Our neighbors could make it so hazy i couldn't see and i'd be happy for them because they are warm. I'll gladly take a touch of discomfort for the sake of warmth, resource use and money savings.

BTW you are a canadian, so keep your bad idea's NORTH of the border, we have enough ******* SOUTH of it. Thanks

yup!! that's him!!

 

[olyman]

I'm willing to make a small wager that jeblatty owns zero chain saws, does not worry about heat bills because mom does not charge him utilities for living in her basement and is merely a troll for some ecoterrorist group or Occupy Portland or some other group that does nothing to support themselves. I would also point out that under Indiana law anything that I do to surface water running across my property becomes the problem of my downhill neighbor and he has no recourse against me so his property line "rights" don't seem to stand up under that situation

 

[olyman]

My natural reaction would be to attack your character, but I understand that character attacks are resorted to when a person has an otherwise baseless point of view. Instead, I will support your First Amendment right of freedom of speech, even in this case, regardless of the blatant lack of truth in what you say. Have a nice day.

8 posts,,,yeah.....

 

[Vibes]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over regulations. I work in a highly regulated industry and every one in it considers it just part of the game. That game usually only applies to people who have something to lose. IE industry.

I remember the big asbestos scares of the early 80's and 90's. Lots of regulation were passed and lots of people made money on account of it. Me included! I remember lots of regs passed regarding residential abatement procedures and various rules about transfer of houses with transite siding. I guess they are still on the books but unless you live in California no one gives a damn about them. I'll include banks and real estate companies in that mix because I just sold 2 buildings loaded with asbestos. I didn't even consider that to be a factor when I started the presale preperations. No one asked. No one looked. No one cared.

A house across the street from me just got bought and the only thing that the morgager was concerned about was the hand railing that was not in compliance, and they made the seller cut down a tree that was hanging over the roof. I've been in that place and it would be a regulators dream as far as codes and other such rules apply. Lead, asbestos, plumbing that has ABS and PVC in the same system. Odd stairways, mold and dust. All issues highly regulated. Guess what. No one gave a f#ck!!! Sold , bought, and mortgaged.

And I live in a "blue" state.

Rules like this only apply to people who make them.