Face cut too small?

[Haywire Haywood]

This is the picture on Madson's homepage. I'm no pro, (it's a stretch to even call me an amateur) but isn't this face cut a tad on the small side? I mean it needs to be more open doesn't it? Looks like it would close mighty fast. --Ian

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

A small face angle is common in logging to save valuable lumber. It's also easier to cut at a lower angle.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Ah, I've been reading D. Dent's book and applying that to what I see.

thanks,
Ian

 

[smokechase II]

yep

That is too small.

In conifers, often there is no need to have a wide "open face" notch to get accuracy. They commit to the fall really well. When this big they go over with real power and obstacles generally move out of their way. When dropping something this big and valuable if there isn't a good bed available it is not a bad idea to hit a 40 inch'er about 40 feet away dead on to slow it down, (as it comes out by the roots), and save lumber all the way up. Provided that second tree was marked also, of course.
(In the old West Side days, they used to drop big big cedar cross ways first, just to make a soft bed, then put the big big fir across the cedar. Those cedar got re-logged for shake bolts decades later.)

Even though I'm not a logger, I'm still gonna stick both boots in my mouth and say the face should have been about twice as high. There is space on the butt swell to go for more of an opening and still save butt log timber.

{Remember, one strength of the Humboldt face is that the cutter goes as low as he can avoiding butt swell, and then the bottom of the face comes out of the butt swell area. From the standpoint of the butt log, this cutter isn't wasting a single board foot.}

Of greater concern is the shape of the face. If one side closes before the other in a really short face like this one it can serve as a Dutch step or angled Dutch face, if you will. Note how the cuts don't come across clean. This can rock the tree early in the fall and if the cutter hits stumps and breaks stems in big money sticks like this one too often. He'd better be the owner otherwise he'll be looking for work elsewhere.

However, it does look like the face is evenly short on both sides and with obviously no high point in the center, he was probably OK.

 

[smokechase II]

rethinking what I just said

However, looking over that cutters arms.

I think I'll back up and say that face was absolutely, positively, undoubtedly and objectively perfect.

Perfect, without question.

 

[smokechase II]

Lets ask a reall faller

John Ellison:

This picture you posted of your partner cutting a big cedar in Alaska.

Were you comfortable or was it an accepted standard to use short faces like this?

Did it do anything to slow the fall?

 

[John Ellison]

I agree Smokechase II, they both look too small. Tho they are both probably better fallers than I will ever be. I am guessing they had their hinge wood cut up by boring or side cutting. My friend sent that pic to me the year after I left and I dont know all the particulars.
Seems like in a lot of pics of really big trees the face looks too small.

 

[Gologit]

I know Haywire means well and isn't being critical of a process he has no real-world understanding of. That being said...if the tree went where the fallers wanted it to,didn't break up,the buckers could get to it,and the skidders could get it out, the idea of a face being a little too small (or appearing to be)isn't really important. Guys falling this kind of timber every day usually know what they're doing. If they don't know what they're doing they just aren't around very long. The bull-buck runs them off or they get scared and quit or maybe they get hurt. Or worse. Do experienced fallers make mistakes? Sure they do. Just not very often .

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

I've certainly never falled anything near this size, but my guess would be that once this tree gets moving, and the holding wood is cut up nice enough, that it's going to go regardless. The weight and speed of this tree is going to rip it right off the stump. It may well have been bore cut to make sure the holding wood is thin enough when the tree started to go and there would be minimal fiber pull. A smaller tree, yes this'd be way too small, and the tree could hang up on the stump. But a monster like this, once it's weight is commited and you've got it through enough of it's arc, nothing short of terra firma is going to stop it.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Yes, I'm not trying to say that the professional in the picture doesn't know what he's doing. I'm just comparing what I'm seeing to what I'm reading in the book and getting some input from those that do have the experience.

just trying to learn a bit,
Ian

 

[Gologit]

Yes, I'm not trying to say that the professional in the picture doesn't know what he's doing. I'm just comparing what I'm seeing to what I'm reading in the book and getting some input from those that do have the experience.

just trying to learn a bit,
Ian

Point taken. Its hard to tell from the picture but there may have been a reason for the shallow face. Every tree is different and big trees are always different. Read your Dent and Beranek...they're pretty much the Bible for this stuff. Read the posts on AS...you can really go to school here. Watch experienced fallers at work. But don't ever,ever, think that just because you've done everything right that the tree will do exactly what you've planned for it. You can fall fifty trees absolutely where you want them and that fifty-first tree will humble you for days afterward. Have fun and be safe. Bob

 

[clearance]

We cannot see the whole picture, maybe the guy is going to jump it to avoid something, maybe he is using this tree to hammer a snag, another tree, dominoing, who knows? But yes, the undercut does look a bit shallow, too bad we can't see his other stumps. I have looked at a lot of big tree stumps, some after the wood has been yarded, some before. Usually a reason for why they do what they do.

 

[TreeBarber]

With trees that big one concern is what your have to do with it once it’s on the ground. It still needs to be bucked in to moveable sized pieces. It’s important to have the log on the flattest possible surface, or you risk wasting lumber (cash out of the faller’s pocket). Likely one reason for having a small face cut is to get the tree away from the rising root wad going up into the stump.
That’s my $.02 worth.
Cool picture though!!!

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

With trees that big one concern is what your have to do with it once it’s on the ground. It still needs to be bucked in to moveable sized pieces. It’s important to have the log on the flattest possible surface, or you risk wasting lumber (cash out of the faller’s pocket). Likely one reason for having a small face cut is to get the tree away from the rising root wad going up into the stump.
That’s my $.02 worth.
Cool picture though!!!

Whaddya say Pat, that's 'bout as big as the one we took from behind your neighbor's house, eh?

We need to get you a new Avatar! Here, try one of these. Two of those are actually you. Guess which one isn't....

 

[TreeBarber]

Sorry if I caused any confusion, the point I was trying to make is getting the log as far away from the stump as possible so the log will lay flat. Usually the ground around such a large tree slopes up toward the stump. If the tree were to come to rest with the butt end close to the stump likely the butt would be higher and there would be a portion of the log (the middle) suspended above the ground, making it very difficult to buck such a large tree.
I hope that makes since.

 

[TreeBarber]

We need to get you a new Avatar! Here, try one of these. Two of those are actually you. Guess which one isn't....


I'll take the first one.
Thanks...................

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

I hope that makes since.

OK, gotcha now.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

I'll take the first one.
Thanks...................

Yer welcome. I lightened it up as much as possible, but still dark. Sorry my friend.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

Every tree has a diff. situation. I am sure both of these fella's knew what they were doing or else they would not be there.
Just because it is big does not mean your undercut needs to have a big "birds mouth" or needs to be deep. Like I said every tree is diff.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

I agree. Like I said, I think a tree this size is going to go no matter what once it's passed through an obligatory arc and is committed, small face or not. It's going to come off the stump sooner, but that may be what he wanted.