Freakingstang
Doctor Freakinstein
I would have thought #3 would have been the best for a new avatar pic....
J/K :hmm3grin2orange: :biggrinbounce2:
J/K :hmm3grin2orange: :biggrinbounce2:
Face cut too small?
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fishhuntcutwood
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I would have too, but you've got to know Treebarber. I tried!
So I can better understand, Why would this be way too small for a smaller tree? The weight of a small tree up top relative to its trunk should have the same forces on its hinge as a large tree top relative to its trunk and hinge. I may not be wording my thought right and apologize if I'm confusing.
Tks.
Tom
fishhuntcutwood
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Nope, I understand ya. I've had small to small/medium cedars and firs hang up on a small face. They just don't have the mass to accelerate enough through the arc to break the hinge. I know what you're saying about the relativity of the hinge to the size of tree, but they will hang on a face proportional to the one in the original picture here. The mass of a tree that size is just simply immense. Steel cables and red iron wouldn't hold that thing once it got moving.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
smaller faces in big trees
The reason smaller faces in big trees work overall is the power behind them.
fishhuntcutwood is right. Once a big tall conifer starts over you have to have serious skill or serious incompetence to change its route. It is the same physics as in smaller trees, just more of it.
While most would say try for something bigger than the faces in this thread, it is by no means mandatory that a bird’s mouth (aka open face) be the face cut.
Take a look at this Norwegian felling guide:
http://www.fellesforbundet.no/Felle...miljø og sikkerhet/PFD-filer/sikker hogst.pdf
Go to page 6 and you'll see the drawing with this post.
When you look at that notch, you can see the primary reason for its shape and size, save wood on the butt log. Part of the reason they do this is that you can generally get away with the shallow face compromise on smaller timber.
This isn't to say that in the right setting an open face notch isn't appropriate.
The reason smaller faces in big trees work overall is the power behind them.
fishhuntcutwood is right. Once a big tall conifer starts over you have to have serious skill or serious incompetence to change its route. It is the same physics as in smaller trees, just more of it.
While most would say try for something bigger than the faces in this thread, it is by no means mandatory that a bird’s mouth (aka open face) be the face cut.
Take a look at this Norwegian felling guide:
http://www.fellesforbundet.no/Felle...miljø og sikkerhet/PFD-filer/sikker hogst.pdf
Go to page 6 and you'll see the drawing with this post.
When you look at that notch, you can see the primary reason for its shape and size, save wood on the butt log. Part of the reason they do this is that you can generally get away with the shallow face compromise on smaller timber.
This isn't to say that in the right setting an open face notch isn't appropriate.
smithie55
ArboristSite Operative
I've seen where tree's of that size with a large face will slide of the stump before it reaches the appex of its fall. More than likely the faller wanted the tree to stay put on the stump until it reached the appex, like someone said we can't see the whole picture. The placement is obviously crucial.
maybe he needed to jump the tree alittle to place it in the correct place on the ground. If you talk to any of those seasoned fallers they can tell you the most incredible ways of manipulating a big tree or any tree for that matter.
maybe he needed to jump the tree alittle to place it in the correct place on the ground. If you talk to any of those seasoned fallers they can tell you the most incredible ways of manipulating a big tree or any tree for that matter.
arboralliance
ArboristSite Operative
Many reasons...
Its obvious from the pic he knows what he wants...
The relief on the lip of the base cut shows the intent...
On a basal back cut there at that level it would hang on in the fiddle back lumbar of the lower stump region move slow and intentionally and pop n slide around rotating through its fall and sit down beside the stump, probably avoiding both a really dirty butt and an impossible clean up cut and avoiding hanging up in the other huge trees as seen in the rear of the pic...
A cant hook is used to do this on smaller lumbar, try cant hooking that baby and you'll be flung into next year...
You cannot have a tree that size hang up period...
Getting rotation during fall is the only way to avoid this nine times out of ten the other is to have an explosive release of hinge wood which punches it through other trees branches as is the case here...
This tree cannot be compared to smaller or even medium trees the power and force from the weight is in thousands of tons and a pinched bar here will flatten the bar like a toy...
Also notice the face of the meeting top cut and bottom cut created in at the meeting point on the left of the cut face this creates the pivoting face, almost a box hinge/scarf effect which will hang on almost still when the tree is on the deck...
What the lumber jack knows which we forget or haven't seen is the action in the trunk of a 200' plus tree and how it will resonate back through as movement begins from the initial and following back cut; imagine for moment what would happen to a 200' plus trunk following through the movement created from the back cut, something we cant see in smaller trees but is amazing to watch and play with in larger trees, you can get these babies to dance down to the ground weaving in and out and around other trees and branches...
Also at those heights it only has to move an inch at the horizontal ground plane to move 20 - 30 feet at the top thus putting it into a hang-up with any larger face cut; get that baby to punch out the hinge and shoot through the limbs twisting other limbs off as she twirls to the ground with a nice swagger to weave through the other forest beauties and lay down sweetly right next to me an i kin step off the stump en onto her belly and doc her up...
Just my two (point two, cant forget Johnnies GST) cents worth...
Its obvious from the pic he knows what he wants...
The relief on the lip of the base cut shows the intent...
On a basal back cut there at that level it would hang on in the fiddle back lumbar of the lower stump region move slow and intentionally and pop n slide around rotating through its fall and sit down beside the stump, probably avoiding both a really dirty butt and an impossible clean up cut and avoiding hanging up in the other huge trees as seen in the rear of the pic...
A cant hook is used to do this on smaller lumbar, try cant hooking that baby and you'll be flung into next year...
You cannot have a tree that size hang up period...
Getting rotation during fall is the only way to avoid this nine times out of ten the other is to have an explosive release of hinge wood which punches it through other trees branches as is the case here...
This tree cannot be compared to smaller or even medium trees the power and force from the weight is in thousands of tons and a pinched bar here will flatten the bar like a toy...
Also notice the face of the meeting top cut and bottom cut created in at the meeting point on the left of the cut face this creates the pivoting face, almost a box hinge/scarf effect which will hang on almost still when the tree is on the deck...
What the lumber jack knows which we forget or haven't seen is the action in the trunk of a 200' plus tree and how it will resonate back through as movement begins from the initial and following back cut; imagine for moment what would happen to a 200' plus trunk following through the movement created from the back cut, something we cant see in smaller trees but is amazing to watch and play with in larger trees, you can get these babies to dance down to the ground weaving in and out and around other trees and branches...
Also at those heights it only has to move an inch at the horizontal ground plane to move 20 - 30 feet at the top thus putting it into a hang-up with any larger face cut; get that baby to punch out the hinge and shoot through the limbs twisting other limbs off as she twirls to the ground with a nice swagger to weave through the other forest beauties and lay down sweetly right next to me an i kin step off the stump en onto her belly and doc her up...
Just my two (point two, cant forget Johnnies GST) cents worth...
Lee Bradley
ArboristSite Lurker
This is the picture on Madson's homepage. I'm no pro, (it's a stretch to even call me an amateur) but isn't this face cut a tad on the small side? I mean it needs to be more open doesn't it? Looks like it would close mighty fast. --Ian
Seems plently big and getting bigger by the second; that tree is its way away and the faller is getting gone after cutting as much hinge away as he dared.
fishhuntcutwood
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This brings up a good point. You're looking at it as a back cut, we're looking at it as a face cut. Which is it? I would have thought he'd of had his saw out of the cut by the time the back cut got this open.
The more I look at it the more I think Lee Bradley is right. Looks like the top of the power head is facing us. If he were cleaning up the face cut I cant see doing it in that position. You cant tell from the pic but he is right in the middle of hauling a himself outa there. Pictures sure can be deceiving.
Looked like it was to small to me as well.I don't cut tree like most cutters here they like to use notches that is realy tall and not to deep in....I have a cutter that works with me and he is always asking how i get my tree to jump off the stump i tell him its the notch ...Im not sure wot the up side down notch is called but it the one i use he uses the old school...But i do cut mine taller then the one showed in the pic but i also do not cut trees as big as that one.
beelsr
ArboristSite Guru
Well, after seeing this picture for the first time, I can remember saying to myself, I'd hate to be the photographer standing in the frontal danger zone. Gave myself a shiver and moved on to the rest of the site.
Reading Lee's post, it makes more sense as this being the backcut because while I can imagine a guy takign pictures of the face cut being done, there's not way in freakin' hell, I'd be taking that picture if the tree was moving and that's the front cut.... :jawdrop: :jawdrop:
Reading Lee's post, it makes more sense as this being the backcut because while I can imagine a guy takign pictures of the face cut being done, there's not way in freakin' hell, I'd be taking that picture if the tree was moving and that's the front cut.... :jawdrop: :jawdrop:
fishhuntcutwood
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If that's the face (front) then the back cut hasn't been made yet, and the tree is perfectly safe. Rather, if that's the backcut, and the tree is on it's way over, and we're looking into the expanding backcut the photographer is in and unsafe place, unless he's zoomed from 100' away.
I vote it's a face cut, and the faller is finishing his sweep up into the holding wood checking his gun, and the smiley has fallen out.
Jeff
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beelsr
ArboristSite Guru
Agreed - if the back cut hasn't been made yet.
My comment was in response to "the faller is getting gone". If he's bugging out and that's the face cut, I'd be gone already... :hmm3grin2orange:
arboralliance
ArboristSite Operative
Are you guys for real?
C'mon!!
No way is that his back cut!!
He's got the saw in there to check the trueness of the face cut after checking its clean (most would know without looking if it came clean wouldn't they) and you all check the true direction of the base line with the saw on big timber then step back around bringing the saw around at mid rev to create a datum (base line) mark to set your back cut height against, whether above or below your baseline, cmon guys...
He would not be standing there still, in that size timber, or any size timber, with that much open/lift/exposure in a back cut; any logger knows to run when the back cut "begins" to open or suffer widow makers like top outs, limb shear, root lifts or all three and a host of other deadly events when she starts to go...
Ive sprinted from big Pines with the 088 and 36", been over 50 or more metres way still sprinting and flattened as limbs soar rearwards, this guy is not cutting the back cut period...
The reason (besides all the other reasons I've given in my previous post) you don't cut a big face is the face he would have cut there would create a scarf or wedge of wood in this instance weighing around 200 pounds give or take, now try whacking that scarf out or a bigger one with an axe or hammer?
Darn, the poor guys also gettin his footing, thats real steep country there guys take a look!!!!
Or, more likely, he's plunged in to start back cut in a big sweep to centre leaving pop out back release section for explosive release...
C'mon!!
No way is that his back cut!!
He's got the saw in there to check the trueness of the face cut after checking its clean (most would know without looking if it came clean wouldn't they) and you all check the true direction of the base line with the saw on big timber then step back around bringing the saw around at mid rev to create a datum (base line) mark to set your back cut height against, whether above or below your baseline, cmon guys...
He would not be standing there still, in that size timber, or any size timber, with that much open/lift/exposure in a back cut; any logger knows to run when the back cut "begins" to open or suffer widow makers like top outs, limb shear, root lifts or all three and a host of other deadly events when she starts to go...
Ive sprinted from big Pines with the 088 and 36", been over 50 or more metres way still sprinting and flattened as limbs soar rearwards, this guy is not cutting the back cut period...
The reason (besides all the other reasons I've given in my previous post) you don't cut a big face is the face he would have cut there would create a scarf or wedge of wood in this instance weighing around 200 pounds give or take, now try whacking that scarf out or a bigger one with an axe or hammer?
Darn, the poor guys also gettin his footing, thats real steep country there guys take a look!!!!
Or, more likely, he's plunged in to start back cut in a big sweep to centre leaving pop out back release section for explosive release...
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I'm still going to keep my changed opinion and go with Lee that the tree is on its way over.
How many west coast fallers would want their picture taken with a Humboldt that had the diagonal cut level ( looks sloped down a little). If the tree is still upright and that is the face cut it really looks more like a conventional notch with no attempt to slant the lower cut. Not likely.
It could be argued that where the bark has been scored off is where he changed his mind, but I think it has been done directly above it too. Its not apparent because of the angle. Probably was a wedge/s there that fell out.
Yep, if that is the face cut he probably did have a hard time getting it out. A Humboldt that is made right will fall out. How many flat top stumps do you see on the west coast?
How many west coast fallers would want their picture taken with a Humboldt that had the diagonal cut level ( looks sloped down a little). If the tree is still upright and that is the face cut it really looks more like a conventional notch with no attempt to slant the lower cut. Not likely.
It could be argued that where the bark has been scored off is where he changed his mind, but I think it has been done directly above it too. Its not apparent because of the angle. Probably was a wedge/s there that fell out.
Yep, if that is the face cut he probably did have a hard time getting it out. A Humboldt that is made right will fall out. How many flat top stumps do you see on the west coast?
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
face cut
John Lee:
The cuts top and bottom don't match.
The faller is sighting, not escaping or finishing the back-cut to the hinge.
I think that is his face and I'll bet it was safe for the photographer to be there. I don't think that tree went over until it had been beavered on the backside for a good bit of time.
John Lee:
The cuts top and bottom don't match.
The faller is sighting, not escaping or finishing the back-cut to the hinge.
I think that is his face and I'll bet it was safe for the photographer to be there. I don't think that tree went over until it had been beavered on the backside for a good bit of time.
Maybe I'm wrong.:hmm3grin2orange: My computers picture does'nt show that detail, where I could say for sure that the cut isnt just opening. Maybe it looks the same on the other side and instead of sighting he is telling the photogrrapher to get outta there.
Rick Alger
ArboristSite Member
Face cut too small
I vote for back cut.
The chopper is on the uphill safe side of the tree where he would be finishing his cut. The brush has been cleared to his left so he's apparently been around the stump already. He's probably looking toward his escape route and keeping his hand on the butt as he pulls out the saw for leverage and a push off.
I vote for back cut.
The chopper is on the uphill safe side of the tree where he would be finishing his cut. The brush has been cleared to his left so he's apparently been around the stump already. He's probably looking toward his escape route and keeping his hand on the butt as he pulls out the saw for leverage and a push off.
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