Falling pics 11/25/09

[Metals406]

damn shrubbery. doesn't look like your snowed out yet.

Fraz, we ain't got squat for snow this year, and now the weather guessers are saying seasonal temps and "dry" this month. If we don't have a wet spring or summer. . . We'z gonna burn.

Oh well, Cody needs the good money out fallin' on fires. . . If they won't let us log it, we might as well let it nuke and have guys make money "fighting" the fires.

 

[lfnh]

Fraz, we ain't got squat for snow this year, and now the weather guessers are saying seasonal temps and "dry" this month. If we don't have a wet spring or summer. . . We'z gonna burn.

Oh well, Cody needs the good money out fallin' on fires. . . If they won't let us log it, we might as well let it nuke and have guys make money "fighting" the fires.

Try this on.

For the stop logging cases and appeals, the Plantiffs and their Contributors get a due and payable bill for the Retail Value of the timber products lost or damaged directly or indirectly from fire. Cash. No Checks. No write offs.

Have a nice day.

 

[forestryworks]

We need less reactive management and more proactive management. All that money spent on "fighting" fires can easily pay for thinning and fuels reduction projects.

The more you thin and burn during El Nino years, the better off you'll be in La Nina years.

Besides, Mother Nature puts out fires anyways.

 

[mile9socounty]

Left the stroker a present.

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Hope you all had a good, safe week - Sam

Holy grouse ladder!!! :eek2:

 

[Cody Colston]

Besides, Mother Nature puts out fires anyways.

I've got a question about that statement. Granted, down here we only hear about the large, sensational fires like Yellowstone, but it doesn't appear that firefighting is very effective on western fires. It seems that in spite of all the money and effort expended, they usually burn themselves out when conditions dictate it and not before.

Just how effective are the fire fighting efforts? When I see video showing one of those crown fires being whipped along by 30-40 mph winds, I wonder how anything could stop it.

I'm ready for El Nino to return, too. It not only keeps hurricane activity down (I work in the GoM) but brings us more rain. We are still dry here in E.T.

Edit In: Here's a pic of the dead Pine I dropped with my little MS-250. I bucked it into five 10' logs and will haul them to the sawyer in a couple of days. I'm clearing out some smaller stuff now preparing to fall another dead Pine.

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[lfnh]

Can't remember the exact ratio loss of timber value in fire salvage but they're litigation and court decisions (esp from 9th circuit) sure have not taken any of that into consideration, nevermind the cost of fire.

Proactive management is an opportunity. The other extreme is let'er'burn. And given the fuel loading that's gone un-managed for decades that would be resource decimation as things stand now.

 

[Metals406]

I've got a question about that statement. Granted, down here we only hear about the large, sensational fires like Yellowstone, but it doesn't appear that firefighting is very effective on western fires. It seems that in spite of all the money and effort expended, they usually burn themselves out when conditions dictate it and not before.

Just how effective are the fire fighting efforts? When I see video showing one of those crown fires being whipped along by 30-40 mph winds, I wonder how anything could stop it.

I'm ready for El Nino to return, too. It not only keeps hurricane activity down (I work in the GoM) but brings us more rain. We are still dry here in E.T.

Edit In: Here's a pic of the dead Pine I dropped with my little MS-250. I bucked it into five 10' logs and will haul them to the sawyer in a couple of days. I'm clearing out some smaller stuff now preparing to fall another dead Pine.

View attachment 221746

You have to understand, fires make money. There's no reason for them not to let fires run out of hand.

Certain "procedures" almost guarantee most fires will grow to a few thousand acres. The ones kept down to an acre or less, sure do make for good PR.

It's the same reason cancers' aren't "cured". . . There's too much money at steak for "treatment".

 

[lfnh]

No question that more immediate money (one shot deal) is made on fire (suppression, containment, all out fighting, regen).

But not over the long haul.

Unless of course there are no more mills to take the timber or China drops the loaded value to 1 red cent Mbf.

 

[madhatte]

Unless of course there are no more mills to take the timber or China drops the loaded value to 1 red cent Mbf.

Uggh, that's a grim reality. Of course, there'll always be asses need wiped, and no market fluctuation or paperless office can cut that market out.

 

[lfnh]

Uggh, that's a grim reality. Of course, there'll always be asses need wiped, and no market fluctuation or paperless office can cut that market out.

Good point.

Maybe timber sale should be re-named to pulp sales for TP ?

Be interesting to read Plantiff's arguments and court rulings on those sales.

 

[slowp]

I have seen the size and intensity of fires grow while timber harvest has dropped. I think there is a correlation there, but since I'm not a scientist, it doesn't matter.

My theory? In the olden days, (prior to the 1990s) there were lots of bodies out in the woods every day. Bodies with fire tools. We used to have "smokechaser" packs in our pickups on one district I worked on.
If there was a lightning bust, you were sent up to a spot where you could look for smokes. Then you were likely to be told to go put it out.

The timber harvest plummeted, so did the budgets for the Forest Service. The fire folks got attention after the Yellowstone fiasco, and got more money. Kingdoms were built. However, there were less bodies in the woods with fire tools. You then had some deaths on fires--Storm King. There was a lawsuit after the deaths at Thirtymile. There was an arrest due to Thirtymile of a crewboss. The Forest Service did not show any inkling of backing up the people involved. Suddenly, if you were going to be in the fire organization in any leadership role, you were told to get liability insurance on your own.

I sometimes get the feeling that maybe the current fire folks are over cautious. They have good reason to be that way though. Maybe we were crazy to do some of the stuff we did before Storm King. Who knows.

Another of my theories is that we used to be able to salvage log the insect and disease killed trees. We had some huge sales of bug killed and dying lodgepole. The environmental groups turned salvage into a dirty word and anytime you put the word Salvage in the name or as the purpose of a timber sale, it was a red flag for appeals and lawsuits. So, where we used to get at least parts of those areas cleaned up and some spots made where fires could be slowed down, we can't do that anymore. Now you have acres upon acres of dead lodgepole waiting to go up in smoke.

Yet another factor? Decommissioned roads. In the olden days, roads were good things. They got you into the areas where the fires started fast. Now roads are being torn up because the budget does not allow for maintainance. Plus, it is a trade off. The enviros will sue about road density. The forest plan or transportation plan calls for a certain % of the acreage in roads. That can't be exceeded. So, if an area requires new road construction to access the timber, old roads must be decommissioned.

Decommissioning is pulling out or smashing the culverts, removing fill and sidecast, and blocking the road off. Our area had a fire in an area where there WAS a road that went right to it. It showed up on old maps.
But, it was decommissioned so smokejumpers had to jump on it. They complained that it was too steep in that area, were pulled off, and the fire was left to burn and be watched. It didn't do much but had the potential to burn up a valley with homes if conditions had changed. Meanwhile, we had yurts with airconditioning set up on our compound, a little helicopter and the big Columbia Chinook sitting for a few days in the former horse pasture. (The horse budget was cut years ago.) Our district got to keep the airconditioners. :rolleyes2:

Now that we have big fires, big money must be spent in bringing in crews and helicopters and air tankers or the population that is nearest the fire will complain that not enough effort is being made to combat the fire.
Even if the air tankers do no good, if they don't show up and make air drops, the local congressional representative will get phone calls demanding air support.

It is so %$#&* political, we're lucky we have any forest left.

That's my take on the matter.

 

[chucker]

!! SLOWPETE!! ? could you "please" tell me if you know if the vernonia, oregon fire tower/camp still exists?? i spent my 15th an 16th summer birthdays working up there under the head (usf) forester burford hayes out of columbia city ore. thank you!

 

[lfnh]

Well written and says it all, imo.

Add this: The fuel load mapping and a goodly number of old fire access roads and loggings roads that i put on field maps 20 yrs ago were transcribed to Archeology maps and the field maps disposed. The reasoning was historical preservation record but not to be used for future fire or timber harvest.
Go figure that one.

 

[056kid]

Am not!

Where did you find a hickory?

 

[madhatte]

Where did you find a hickory?

Landscape tree. The top was a busted-up mess after the ice storm. That thing did NOT want to go over. I had so many wedges stacked in there it looked like a Dagwood sandwich. Lift, pound, lift, pound, lather, rinse, repeat. When it finally tipped it was in slow motion. It hit the ground like a feather. You can see my hinge -- I cut it thinner and thinner hoping it would let go but it just didn't. Is that normal?

In other news: I just attended a memorial service for one of my old contract bosses. It was weird seeing some of those people again, my old crew from the Oregon days 15 years ago. Beards are greyer but otherwise everybody pretty much looks the same. Hopefully I'll be able to stay in better touch now that I've seen 'em all again.

 

[forestryworks]

Hickory might as well be made out of rubber.

 

[Gologit]

Would that hickory be worth saving to make some handles?

 

[056kid]

Yea you would have been fine with a little 1/8'' strip of holding wood on a hickory like that. I personally like jumping them off the stump, not as accurate, but less hassle in the long run. On the rare I would get into real pretty, clear straight trees that acted much more brittle, and twice as ####ing hard. .
I would say that hickory would be worth making handles out of.

 

[madhatte]

Tryin' to get the powers-that-be to sell this stuff to specialty mills. We'll see what comes of it. I will be seriously pissed if it all goes to firewood.

 

[lfnh]

Tryin' to get the powers-that-be to sell this stuff to specialty mills. We'll see what comes of it. I will be seriously pissed if it all goes to firewood.

File up a ripping chain and freehand up a couple of 5-6 ft cants for some good peavy handles later out of slabs. Lotta times ants bore the heck out of it.