Originally posted by Stumper
I was using common parlance. Yes, only 2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock but 3 actions are required to open it.
... reference to snaps-when they added 1 lock on top of auto closure they were marketed as "double locking".
... better definitions would be helpful.
Right now the bottlom line is that 2 actions are acceptable on snaps...
Three are required on carabiners.
Three seperate actions make a pretty accident proof connector.:angel:
Think of a non-locking 'biner or snap. Push the gate and it opens. There is only one motion required to open the 'biner or snap and there is no locking mechanism.
A single-locking 'biner or snap requires one motion to unlock and a second motion to open the 'biner/snap.
A double-locking 'biner requires two motions to unlock and three total motions to open the 'biner.
The term 'locking' refers to the number of motions required to unlock the biner/snap. The progression is non-lock, single-lock, double lock.
The term 'action' (or Act, Stage, way, as in Tri-Act, Three Stage (both commercial names), and three way (used in the article that Tom referenced)) refers to the number of motions required to open the 'biner/snap. Since the 'biner/snap can't (or at least shouldn't) be open without some motion from the climber the progression starts at one, not zero--single action, double action, triple action.
Thus a non-locking 'biner is a single action 'biner; a single-locking 'biner is a double action 'biner; and a double-locking 'biner is a triple action 'biner (thus the name for Petzl's Tri-Act refers to three actions for the 'biner to be open, not simply to be unlocked).
I should note that in the thread on TB that was referenced in an above post, Rescue Man disagreed with part of this. He feels that 'action' refers to the motion of the locking mechanism alone and that a double-locking 'biner is a double-action locker. But, although we disagreed about 'action', we agreed that 'locking' refers to the motion(s) of the locking mechanism and does not include the actual opening of the gate.
Using the sequence outlined above (non-lock, single-lock, double-lock), Tom is correct that locking snaps are only single-locking. It sounds so much safer, but 'double-locking' is incorrect. I randomly pulled 13 or 14 catalogues off of my bookshelf and looked up 'snaps'. The majority of them called our current climbing snaps 'locking' or 'single-locking'. Only three used the term 'double-locking'. But, just because it is in a catalogue doesn't mean its correct.
If, as some say, the snaps that are currently used (eg. #11 on p. 42 of the '04 Sherrill catalogue) are 'double-locking' then what is a 'single-locking' snap? #10 on the same page? But we all call that a non-locking snap.
Similarly if as stated above "...2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock..." is there only one action required to unlock a double lock? And then no action is required to unlock a single lock? Does that mean a single lock is the same as a non-lock? Or......or......or......
The confusion is in thinking that the terms triple-action, three way, etc. refer to the locking mechanism. They do not. They refer to the combined motions of the locking mechanism and the opening of the gate. 'Locking' refers solely and only to the locking mechanism.
Why espouse terminology that is so obviously confusing ("...2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock...")? If it is agreed that "...better definitions would be helpful..." why not start by employing them right here?
You say:
"Right now the bottlom line is that 2 actions are acceptable on snaps...
Three are required on carabiners."
And these are single-locking snaps and double-locking carabiners.
I don't mean to single out Stumper, but this post, while trying to be conciliatory, simply highlights the contradictory and confusing manner in which these terms have come to be used. Rather than arguing to maintain a misconstrued status quo, we should discuss ways to achieve a more logical standard of terms and definitions.
And, for safety's sake:
"Three seperate actions make a pretty accident proof connector.:angel."
I have had locking snaps come open (twice) and a double-locking carabiner come unlocked (but not open). After that I changed how I attach my rope to the carabiner. Whatever we call snaps and carabiners, it is important to check them regularly.
Rocky;
You are probably thinking of Mark Collins. He also works in the Atlanta area and is a past president of the GAA.
Mahk
would be able to tell you that this carabiner is not "locked" shut.
