How I baby my 2 stoke motors.... 30-1 instead of 50-1

[bwalker]

I am still fuzzy on the tech specs that pertain directly to air cooled engines.
I read the testing methods for the FB FC anf FD ratings and I didnt see anything stand out that said "good for hot air cooled engines" The reason why I pointed out LUCAS snowmobile oil was that it was "pure synthetic" ( evidenced by very low temp pour point) .... dino oil freezes solid at much higher temps. That is a very good thing for grease and oils if you are in the Artic and it gets 40 below zero. I cant really see
what the benefit of pure synthetic is for 2 stroke motors where the oil is consumed.
In 4 stroke motors the synthetic oil lasts twice as long before turning to trash.
I think I can see that TCW3 ( something similar) rating is definitely for water cooled.....
but I dont see the spec that says "I am for air cooled hot engines" So more commonly I am just looking for the oil description where the mfgr says it is for air cooled engines.

Lucas is a snake oil company and they don't make any actually certified oils.
I would bet their full synthetic actually isn't and it's doped up with solvent to make pour point.

 

[LesL]

I am still fuzzy on the tech specs that pertain directly to air cooled engines.
I read the testing methods for the FB FC anf FD ratings and I didnt see anything stand out that said "good for hot air cooled engines" The reason why I pointed out LUCAS snowmobile oil was that it was "pure synthetic" ( evidenced by very low temp pour point) .... dino oil freezes solid at much higher temps. That is a very good thing for grease and oils if you are in the Artic and it gets 40 below zero. I cant really see
what the benefit of pure synthetic is for 2 stroke motors where the oil is consumed.
In 4 stroke motors the synthetic oil lasts twice as long before turning to trash.
I think I can see that TCW3 ( something similar) rating is definitely for water cooled.....
but I dont see the spec that says "I am for air cooled hot engines" So more commonly I am just looking for the oil description where the mfgr says it is for air cooled engines.

That’s an interesting point. I checked the ISO 13738 report entitled “Lubricants, industrial oils and related products (class L) — Family E (Internal combustion engine oils) — Specifications for two-stroke-cycle gasoline engine oils (categories EGB, EGC and EGD)”.
It doesn’t discuss at all air or water cooled only the specification of each category to assist engine manufacturers in their recommendation to customers. This section of the report explains the scope and purpose.

“A.2 Purpose
This International Standard aims to correctly classify two-stroke oils according to their performance level. The intent is to enable engine manufacturers to better communicate the lubricant needs of their engines to consumers and thus assist the consumer in selecting the proper lubricant from the many available in the marketplace. By doing so, it is hoped that the service life of two-stroke cycle engines may be extended, thereby increasing consumer satisfaction.
A.3 Examples of assignment of performance classification
Examples of the assignments of performance classifications to two different two-stroke oils (candidate oil A and candidate oil B) are shown in Table A.1. Candidate oil A is assigned the classification “EGC”, while candidate oil B is classified “EGB”. Note that although candidate oil B meets the lubricity, initial torque, detergency, piston skirt deposits and exhaust system blocking requirements of EGC, it fails to meet the exhaust smoke requirement of EGC and, therefore, shall be classified no higher than EGB.”

 

[bwalker]

That’s an interesting point. I checked the ISO 13738 report entitled “Lubricants, industrial oils and related products (class L) — Family E (Internal combustion engine oils) — Specifications for two-stroke-cycle gasoline engine oils (categories EGB, EGC and EGD)”.
It doesn’t discuss at all air or water cooled only the specification of each category to assist engine manufacturers in their recommendation to customers. This section of the report explains the scope and purpose.

“A.2 Purpose
This International Standard aims to correctly classify two-stroke oils according to their performance level. The intent is to enable engine manufacturers to better communicate the lubricant needs of their engines to consumers and thus assist the consumer in selecting the proper lubricant from the many available in the marketplace. By doing so, it is hoped that the service life of two-stroke cycle engines may be extended, thereby increasing consumer satisfaction.
A.3 Examples of assignment of performance classification
Examples of the assignments of performance classifications to two different two-stroke oils (candidate oil A and candidate oil B) are shown in Table A.1. Candidate oil A is assigned the classification “EGC”, while candidate oil B is classified “EGB”. Note that although candidate oil B meets the lubricity, initial torque, detergency, piston skirt deposits and exhaust system blocking requirements of EGC, it fails to meet the exhaust smoke requirement of EGC and, therefore, shall be classified no higher than EGB.”

It's a little more involved, but TCW3 oils are meant for water cooled marine motors and some constant throttle air cooled applications like Lawnboy mowers, Toro snowblower, etc.
JASO FC/FD and ISO EGD oils are designed for air cooled applications and high output, high stress liquid cooled applications. These are the oils you want to use in a chainsaw.

 

[Smitty Smithsonite]

You figure pond water, at least up here in the Northeast ranges from 33° up to a max of maybe 75° after a hot summer. That's some damn cold cooling water! A total loss system, too, so any heat picked up by said water is expelled with the water back into the pond or ocean. Water in an automobile's engine stays at 200°+ these days and never dips below that.

The cylinder head of an air cooled 2-stroke can stay at 400° for the entire time a big load is placed upon it. The benefit of a good quality synthetic isn't just the significant reduction in carbon in the exhaust port and combustion chamber, and top of piston, but the ability to maintain piston ring, and piston to cylinder wall lubrication, even when the clearance has shrunk to .001" or less.

Thinking back to last summer when I took off from a grass strip on a hot summer afternoon, I watched my cylinder head temp gauge reach 397° during the extended climb out. A lesser oil would've given up and lead to immediate seizure at that temperature. My manual from the paramotor engine manufacturer says anything above 410° is guaranteed engine damage. Amsoil has tested Saber with cylinder head temps at 500°! They've also run it at 300:1, and it passed their testing with flying colors. They recommend 100:1 knowing from a marketing perspective, nobody would dare mix at 300:1 no matter what you told them.

 

[bwalker]

You figure pond water, at least up here in the Northeast ranges from 33° up to a max of maybe 75° after a hot summer. That's some damn cold cooling water! A total loss system, too, so any heat picked up by said water is expelled with the water back into the pond or ocean. Water in an automobile's engine stays at 200°+ these days and never dips below that.

The cylinder head of an air cooled 2-stroke can stay at 400° for the entire time a big load is placed upon it. The benefit of a good quality synthetic isn't just the significant reduction in carbon in the exhaust port and combustion chamber, and top of piston, but the ability to maintain piston ring, and piston to cylinder wall lubrication, even when the clearance has shrunk to .001" or less.

Thinking back to last summer when I took off from a grass strip on a hot summer afternoon, I watched my cylinder head temp gauge reach 397° during the extended climb out. A lesser oil would've given up and lead to immediate seizure at that temperature. My manual from the paramotor engine manufacturer says anything above 410° is guaranteed engine damage. Amsoil has tested Saber with cylinder head temps at 500°! They've also run it at 300:1, and it passed their testing with flying colors. They recommend 100:1 knowing from a marketing perspective, nobody would dare mix at 300:1 no matter what you told them.View attachment 980096View attachment 980097

Most Outboards have thermostats FWIW.
When you tread on the edge of burn down sooner or latter you will get bit and Amsoil won't save you. I've been there and done that with much more sophisticated instrumentation then that.

 

[MikeRock]

How about non-ethanol 'premium' grades at local farm gas stations? Years ago all the Stihl manuals said to avoid high test/octane gasoline. The high octanes then were 100 or so...correct me if wrong, 1972. Now high octane is what, 93'ish? It doesn't seem to deteriorate, but I empty saws and stored fuel every couple of months.

 

[KASH]

LawnBoy engines are not constant speed they have govenors which constantly vary the rpms according to grass conditions.
Kash

 

[mbrick]

I think more important than "quality" gas is ethanol free. Now that I have it readily available nearby it is amazing how much longer carb and fuel systems last. Ethanol is horrible.

Carbs need service or rebuilding far less often. Ethanol gas left in a carb wreaks havoc on it.

I would pay significantly more for ethanol free if needed. A 5 gal can of VP premix is a good option if I could not find ethanol free at the pump, plus it smells great when running.

 

[LesL]

It's a little more involved, but TCW3 oils are meant for water cooled marine motors and some constant throttle air cooled applications like Lawnboy mowers, Toro snowblower, etc.
JASO FC/FD and ISO EGD oils are designed for air cooled applications and high output, high stress liquid cooled applications. These are the oils you want to use in a chainsaw.

To confuse myself more, I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).

Lucas is a snake oil company and they don't make any actually certified oils.
I would bet their full synthetic actually isn't and it's doped up with solvent to make pour point.

I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).

 

[bwalker]

LawnBoy engines are not constant speed they have govenors which constantly vary the rpms according to grass conditions.
Kash

The purpose of the governor is to maintain a constant speed.

 

[Bg boy]

I mixed in a ratio of 40:1 with quality two-stroke oil (Shtil and Husqvarna). Even in some cases I increase the proportions Only on the Chinese chainsaw 5800 I mix 25: 1, there it seems that it is a lot, but apparently the manufacturer has considered in view the input material

 

[huskihl]

To confuse myself more, I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).

I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).

We don’t have the Super here, only Ultra. I have no doubt that Super is better, it has to be, because Ultra is 80’s tech garbage. It’s the single dirtiest burning oil I’ve ever seen. Lubes ok though

 

[bwalker]

To confuse myself more, I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).

I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).

Yes, Stihl Ultra is garbage sold at a premium price.
It was originally brought to market as a band aid fix to Stihls poorly designed 4mix motors.

 

[turkeybob]

I enjoy “experimenting” as much as the next person but not with my £900 saw. Stihl have high tech laboratories with 500 chemists and engineers. And they test their kit all around the world. They rightly have a reputation for high quality they want to retain. For a few pounds more I will continue to use their oil at 50:1. Added benefit that now I have to use E10 it has fuel stabiliser unlike the cheaper brands.

Where are you in the UK? In most of UK except north west, s/west and Scotland Esso supreme 99 is ethanol free, so as long as it comes out of Esso Southampton, it says E5 on pump, but this is to satisfy the greens, basically it means up to 5%, but contains none.

 

[cookies]

A centrifugal governor is a specific type of governor with a feedback system that controls the speed of an engine by regulating the flow of fuel or working fluid, so as to maintain a near-constant speed. It uses the principle of proportional control.
In most small engines it is used to limit the maximum rpm by closing the choke plate although it can also be setup to maintain a specific rpm range.
Lucas grease and injector cleaner are the only products of theirs I use, their red grease has stopped several friends from needing yearly hub bearing replacement once I started using it and instructing them to buy it tho Im pretty sure they never used it once purchased LOL! meaning they get greased once a year maybe twice if i can catch the equipment driving by AND get them to stop for 5 minutes.

 

[LesL]

Where are you in the UK? In most of UK except north west, s/west and Scotland Esso supreme 99 is ethanol free, so as long as it comes out of Esso Southampton, it says E5 on pump, but this is to satisfy the greens, basically it means up to 5%, but contains none.

Interesting. I’m in Essex. There are a few places still selling E5. I use E10 as it’s all my local garage sells. I’ve not seen Esso Supreme…will keep a lookout. I’m not so worried for my new Stihl gear but E10 probably isn’t doing my old Westwood/Briggs and Stratton sit on mower much good.

 

[LesL]

Where are you in the UK? In most of UK except north west, s/west and Scotland Esso supreme 99 is ethanol free, so as long as it comes out of Esso Southampton, it says E5 on pump, but this is to satisfy the greens, basically it means up to 5%, but contains none.

Thanks so much. I just found a local garage (Ongar, Essex) that sells it. Will get some and give it a go in my mower tomorrow

 

[turkeybob]

Thanks so much. I just found a local garage (Ongar, Essex) that sells it. Will get some and give it a go in my mower tomorrow

Try it your Stihl's, I feel my stuff runs better on it. Plus the super unleaded is more consistent quality. The E10 separates out really quickly and if for whatever reason, job type, mechanical issue, holiday or illness etc, and you leave some fuel in your equipment you have no need to worry. For sure for the mower it's better, I still add a bit of fuel stabilizer in my 4 stroke stuff, mower and genny etc, then if it doesn't get used for a bit there's no danger of problems. Husqvarna XP 2 stroke is good also and has stabilizer in as well and smells better than Stihl oil!!

 

[LesL]

Try it your Stihl's, I feel my stuff runs better on it. Plus the super unleaded is more consistent quality. The E10 separates out really quickly and if for whatever reason, job type, mechanical issue, holiday or illness etc, and you leave some fuel in your equipment you have no need to worry. For sure for the mower it's better, I still add a bit of fuel stabilizer in my 4 stroke stuff, mower and genny etc, then if it doesn't get used for a bit there's no danger of problems. Husqvarna XP 2 stroke is good also and has stabilizer in as well and smells better than Stihl oil!!

Many thanks, I will give it a go. I volunteer with the Ramblers and we have lots of Stihl brushcutters, hedge trimmers etc. Been a bit of a worry using E10 as a lot of guys forget to empty it after use and it can sit for ages. The Esso fuel sounds ideal. Cheers.

 

[Tomos770]

Flash point is useful for shipping and storage and NOTHING else.

Meh....

Motul 800.....flashpoint 254C.....spoogle in saws muffler

Shell Advance Ultra....flashpoint 70C....no spoogle....