How rescueable are we?

[Dan@JBT]

http://www.myswissarmyknife.com.au/...-sheath.html?gclid=CNeS-ubn_7wCFQEepQodfXsAWw
This is my rescue knife, strapped to my harness at all times. designed for general rescue so has some features i don't utilise ie. glass breaker but cuts like a hot knife through butter.

 

[beastmaster]

I don't care how cool, hard, or sharp your knife is, if it is coming up against beeline or some of the other tough new synthetic fibers, it is going to be some work cutting it.

Serrated definitely helps, though.[/quote

I think in a pinch i would use my silky hand saw. I don't like wearing stuff around my neck and i some times have a hard time getting stuff out of my pants pocket with my climbing belt on.

 

[imagineero]

There's a good video out there of silky handsaws vs cordage. The silky wins, and a lot faster than you might think. Worth watching, it makes you think about using that handsaw a lot more carefully when deploying it.

 

[RichGSkyline]

I almost snorted coffee out my nose reading this. On a big job one time, I and my expert climber were in the same tree (a large big -eaf maple with around 2 tons of ivy in it) At one point my three guys on the ground all disappeared. Had to climb down and move brush off of our ropes. It seems it took three guys to obsessively use the same spot to pile limbs and ivy, so they all piled in the pick-up and chopped brush for an hr out of ear shot and sight. (We were dumping the un-chippable junk in a ravine).

Sigh. Times like that make you want to hit 'em with a small chunk on purpose to get their attention. I didn't want to be the baddie, so i told the group that there was a "miss-communication", but told them one at a time that what happened was not acceptable. You tell groundiies that there is an order of importance: stay out of the way, look at the climber every few minutes, keep the LZ and ropes clear, THEN drag brush and VERY LAST cut up wood.

Perfect storm of headuparse. Make another pile!!

You brought back a very strong memory with your response. I laughed and then my blood boiled again. Back when I was a very junior climber (I've been at it since 87) my foreman decided I should climb and he and the groundman should stay down. when I blew the top out of an 80 ft aspen I was taking down it sprang back from its lean and wacked me in the nuts and chest knocking the chain saw out of my hands. It hit the ground (no lanyard) When I called for the guys to help me there was no one in ear shot. They were getting high in the truck! When I got to the ground I grabbed my foreman by the shirt lifted him onto his toes slammed him against a tree and told him the next time he wouldn't see me coming! Probably the worst day of work in close to 30yrs in the business

 

[Zale]

You brought back a very strong memory with your response. I laughed and then my blood boiled again. Back when I was a very junior climber (I've been at it since 87) my foreman decided I should climb and he and the groundman should stay down. when I blew the top out of an 80 ft aspen I was taking down it sprang back from its lean and wacked me in the nuts and chest knocking the chain saw out of my hands. It hit the ground (no lanyard) When I called for the guys to help me there was no one in ear shot. They were getting high in the truck! When I got to the ground I grabbed my foreman by the shirt lifted him onto his toes slammed him against a tree and told him the next time he wouldn't see me coming! Probably the worst day of work in close to 30yrs in the business

That is definitely not cool. Not sharing, that is.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

Isn't it amazing how fast the tree can bounce back and smack you?
I have been giving this thread a lot of thought in the last few weeks. Around here, I don't see 911 being able to do much for a hurt climber up in a tree. At least not in a timely manner. I really think that if I can't get myself to the ground, then I will die before help arrives. Using a steel lanyard like I do makes rescue even harder. The question becomes.... keep the steel lanyard and reduce the odds of accidentally cutting through it, or give up its protection so I can be more easily rescued? Decisions, decisions.

 

[treesmith]

Using a steel lanyard like I do makes rescue even harder. The question becomes.... keep the steel lanyard and reduce the odds of accidentally cutting through it, or give up its protection so I can be more easily rescued? Decisions, decisions.

Have a weak link where it attaches to your harness, something you can cut, if its close to your body it should be safe from saw cuts unless things go really wrong, but then you're screwed anyway

 

[VA-Sawyer]

Currently using the Stainless Steel half twist from Sherrill. They offered a fabric loop of some kind for the same purpose, but I was concerned how long it would hold up. May have to reconsider the loop again.
I still don't know that it matters. If I can't get myself down, I really believe help will arrive too late. It might be different if I had a second climber handy, but that doesn't happen very often.

 

[beastmaster]

steel core lanyards are more psychological I think then really effective. I saw a demonstration where they hit a tight steel core lanyard with a 066 and it cut through no problem. It might offer some protection from a bad nick comming a part. When I was first learning I was told only one thing I had to remember, not to cut my lanyard, and 30+ years later I always know where that ropes at before I make a cut. That being said, when I was first learning SRT i cut my climbing line with a silky hand saw. If I hadn't had a second tie in i may of died. Almost stopped climbing because of it. Was my own fault i was cutting around the tree and couldn't see what I was cutting. The line was some how zig zagged around the back of the tree. It don't take much to cut a single line under tension.
A lot of times production is put before safety, this causes guys to take short cuts, this is especially true on big crews with several climbers, each trying to out do the others.
With the industry in the shape its in climbers are being pushed to be faster to make up for less profit. You have to watch out for your self. Lots of people put profit before safety.
I love this business, but it seems to be going backwards instead of forward, safety wise as well as money wise.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

I am aware that a wire core can be cut, it just takes more to do so. A big saw can also cut through chaps, but they still are better protection than jeans. I use the 200T for the vast majority of my cutting aloft, and I think it will need a moment or two to cut through the steel core. Will that be enough time for me to react and stop the cut? Not sure, but it has to be better than just plain rope.
When using a larger saw aloft, I go into 'extra careful' mode as it just isn't normal for me

 

[imagineero]

I recommend you destroy all your old gear. I do it with everything I buy, it's educational. I've destroyed maybe 20 pairs of steel caps. Interesting to see just how much load they'll take. I do the same with my old wire cores, ropes etc. Put one end in a vice, put a harness on, clip the other end to yourself then have at it with an old (but sharp) chain on your climbing saw, an old hand saw blade etc. The thing I found about the wire core is that it's no harder to cut through than the rope, but you can feel it a little more... both in your body and with the saw. You really can't notice with the rope except for the fluff going everywhere. I'll video the next one I do.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

I have an old wire core here that I plan to destroy. Want to have a few guys around to see it as well.
Would be very interested in seeing the video. Years back I saw one where they were cutting lanyards with a hand saw. Zip...cut! No sawing needed.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

My bottom line, when it comes to the subject of this thread, timely rescue is unlikely if we can't get ourselves down. I am looking for ways to get down if hurt. The biggest factor is finding ways to avoid getting hurt in the first place. Climbers injured by moving wood seems too common. Same with chainsaw injuries. My focus is in that direction for now.

 

[Valandscaper]

I'm pretty new to the business myself, I don't have another climber on the crew but I do have one groundie that works my ropes. Rule is don't touch a rope unless he tells you to. I know this dosent remove the chance for an accident but it sure does take some of the risk out. As far as rescue most of my removals or prunes require rigging, with that being said my groundies know that in the case of me injuring myself ( chainsaw cut or hit with limb, etc) that if I'm conscious I'm coming down on the the rigging line. We have even practiced that having them lower me via the porta-wrap. I'm sure there are 10 reasons why I shouldn't do that but a rope that can hold large the pices I rig down should sure be able to hold me. It's also the only option I have where I can be helped from the ground.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

I think you need to reconsider that plan. Why change ropes? Just come down the one you are already tied to. Either way you have to release your second tip. If you can do that, just come down on your friction hitch or whatever decent mode you have rigged before making the cut. Easier to do that than retie yourself to the rigging rope, cutting free of the first and second tips, and have them lower you.
The problem comes when you are too hurt to undo the second tip.

 

[arborlicious]

I recommend you destroy all your old gear. I do it with everything I buy, it's educational. I've destroyed maybe 20 pairs of steel caps. Interesting to see just how much load they'll take. I do the same with my old wire cores, ropes etc. Put one end in a vice, put a harness on, clip the other end to yourself then have at it with an old (but sharp) chain on your climbing saw, an old hand saw blade etc. The thing I found about the wire core is that it's no harder to cut through than the rope, but you can feel it a little more... both in your body and with the saw. You really can't notice with the rope except for the fluff going everywhere. I'll video the next one I do.

Great idea Shaun. Although I like the idea of letting someone else wearing the harness while I operate the saw.

 

[treesmith]

I'm pretty new to the business myself, I don't have another climber on the crew but I do have one groundie that works my ropes. Rule is don't touch a rope unless he tells you to. I know this dosent remove the chance for an accident but it sure does take some of the risk out. As far as rescue most of my removals or prunes require rigging, with that being said my groundies know that in the case of me injuring myself ( chainsaw cut or hit with limb, etc) that if I'm conscious I'm coming down on the the rigging line. We have even practiced that having them lower me via the porta-wrap. I'm sure there are 10 reasons why I shouldn't do that but a rope that can hold large the pices I rig down should sure be able to hold me. It's also the only option I have where I can be helped from the ground.

In an absolute emergency I'd use that if I had to, if you're losing consciousness or whatever, it could save your life. I know we're not supposed to and I wouldn't recommend it but the ability to do it can't be a bad thing. In a situation where you'd otherwise die its a no-brainer

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[VA-Sawyer]

Somebody please explain why you would want to come down on the rig line, when you are already attached to a climbing line. If I was climbing by myself and dropped my climb line somehow, I would be willing to come down the rig rope, if it was an option. That is not the situation at hand.
Picture this.... you are all tied in with two tips and start a cut. The saw kicks back and smacks you in the face. Let's say that you are cut on the cheek and forehead, bleeding pretty bad. You are dazed and having trouble seeing due to blood dripping in your eye. You are still able to move with limited mobility.
So you guys are telling me, that instead of just undoing the second tip and sliding down on a descent device, you would try to tie in to a rig line and be lowered.
Please describe step by step how you are going to become attached to the rig rope, and unattached from your two tips and then lowered. In what situation would you be able to do this, yet be unable to simply come down the climbing line?

 

[treesmith]

I'd use it in an absolute emergency when I couldn't self lower or was worried I'd lose consciousness before that bottom. We're talking worst case scenario here, you never know what can happen til it does, there are many possible ways arb work can go wrong

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[VA-Sawyer]

I want the step by step thought process. If you are worried about passing out before you could lower yourself to the ground, how would you not pass out during the time required to tie in to another line? I'm just not seeing how it would be the better choice. If I'm missing something here, fine, please help me see it.