Husqvarna 450 or Dolmar 421?

[LittleLebowski]

Pretty jealous of @MountainHigh, waiting on the good word from fordf150.

Get any extra chains w/ yours, MH?

 

[SawTroll]

A classic question of power vs, quality - as the 450 is stronger, but a "homeowner" saw. The Dolmar is a semi-pro, as is the Echo 500/490 if you include them in the discussion.

You have to go back to the diesel saws of the 1950s to find a decent quality (meaning non-Chinese) 50cc saw that has less rated power than those Echo saws though.

 

[LittleLebowski]

A classic question of power vs, quality - as the 450 is stronger, but a "homeowner" saw. The Dolmar is a semi-pro, as is the Echo 500/490 if you include them in the discussion.

You have to go back to the diesel saws of the 1950s to find a decent quality (meaning non-Chinese) 50cc saw that has less rated power than those Echo saws though.

Since I'm a knuckle dragging jarhead that is hard on his equipment, I went with the Dolmar. I am pleased to see your endorsement of its quality and am glad to see you chiming in as I enjoy your posts.

 

[SawTroll]

I haven't voted in the poll, and will not, as it is an apples to bananas question = hopeless to answer.

 

[MountainHigh]

Pretty jealous of @MountainHigh, waiting on the good word from fordf150.

Get any extra chains w/ yours, MH?

The ea4300 comes with 18" bar and .325 chain. I'll put a 16" on it soon.

Heading up the mountain next week to do a 1/2 days cutting with it. Should be fun.

 

[LittleLebowski]

I haven't voted in the poll, and will not, as it is an apples to bananas question = hopeless to answer.

I believe I understand what you are saying but I'm economically constrained and prefer a new saw with dealer support. I believe that I chose the right saw, though.

The ea4300 comes with 18" bar and .325 chain. I'll put a 16" on it soon.

Heading up the mountain next week to do a 1/2 days cutting with it. Should be fun.

Hurry up and go do some work! Mine hasn't even shipped yet

 

[MountainHigh]

I believe I understand what you are saying but I'm economically constrained and prefer a new saw with dealer support. I believe that I chose the right saw, though.

Hurry up and go do some work! Mine hasn't even shipped yet

Anticipation is half the fun eh

I hear the Makita Chainsaws are changing to an Orange colour from their current blue. Not sure how long before they also start down the autotune/mtronic path, but I bet it's not that far off.

The fact this nice little sturdy German made saw (EA4300/PS 421) can be easily modded and is something the average guy can still work on without a laptop, is a plus in my mind. Maybe not be a bad idea to buy another one in a box and put it away for a few years, just might turn into a Vintage collectors item as we move full speed ahead into the digital era.

Saws seem to be going the way our vehicles have. Computer diagnostics and complexity beyond the reach of the backyard mechanic. I hold dear the honest old school vehicle repair shops where they shoot straight and don't empty your wallet. Unfortunately, many now can't do troubleshooting on new cars, because they don't have the $$pricey$$ diagnostic machines new cars demand. So too the saw shops now evidently require software and computers to diagnose new saw issues.

Watching all the TV ads about the latest and greatest cars and trucks for sale, it seems to be coming down to who has the coolest tailgate stepper, the highest power wif-fi to slow cook the kiddies in the back seat (microwave radiation exposure, now there's a bomb waiting to explode), who has the best cup holders or has the guts to let the car decide when you should stop - lol - last I heard they all have 4 wheels and move forward and backwards.

Wake me up when you can buy something new that is going to last a longtime and cause you little expense or grief. Not holding my breath on that concept.

- - - - - end of Sunday rant

 

[Chris-PA]

Computer diagnostics and complexity beyond the reach of the backyard mechanic.

Let's not get carried away - these feedback carb systems are about a stone simple as possible. It's just a carb with the adjustment needles replaced by a fuel solenoid, and a small micro looking at rpm. Go down the toy isle at any big box store and you'll find things far more complex than AT/MT. The diagnostics software is just that - it gives you some data that will help you figure out what's wrong, but you could diagnose it like a traditional carb saw anyway. About the only difference is that the self adjustment may mask some partial failures, mainly having to do with air leaks.

 

[MountainHigh]

Let's not get carried away - these feedback carb systems are about a stone simple as possible. It's just a carb with the adjustment needles replaced by a fuel solenoid, and a small micro looking at rpm. Go down the toy isle at any big box store and you'll find things far more complex than AT/MT. The diagnostics software is just that - it gives you some data that will help you figure out what's wrong, but you could diagnose it like a traditional carb saw anyway. About the only difference is that the self adjustment may mask some partial failures, mainly having to do with air leaks.

My point is the saw shops now have to diagnose new saws via computer diagnostics along with their historically usual peak and poke. Unlike buying a scrench or carb adjusting screwdriver, backyard guys don't have access to that digital tool. The more we go down this road, the more it will become like car industry. High priced repairs only able to be done by those with the carefully controlled digital tools. If manufacturers want to open up the diag software to you and I, well that is a different kettle of fish ... but so far, you can't buy a new saw and also get the tool to peak inside the digital component, without being an accredited dealer. If I'm wrong and there is a way to get the dongle and software at a reasonable price, I'm all ears.

Makita/Dolmar may also be on this slippery slope (for the consumer) soon, but so far they seem to remain to be an old school builder of nice sturdy chainsaws, that have yet to enter the digital era. Vintage collectors item? Just might be.

 

[7sleeper]

My point is the saw shops now have to diagnose new saws via computer diagnostics along with their usual peak and poke. Backyard guys don't have access to that tool. The more we go down this road, the more it will become like car industry. High priced repairs only able to be done by those with the digital tools. Makita/Dolmar may be on this slippery slope soon, but so far they remain older school well built saws.

The main problem I see is that sooner or later the technicans will start relying ONLY on what the computer tells them. Just like in the car repair industry. The technicans are slowly but surely only plugging in and waiting for the computer to tell them what to do. The young ones have absolutely NO IDEA what they need to do anymore!
There was a TV show in Germany where they exchanged two car technicans out of some central african country with two from a premium german brand. They african guys could diagnose almost ALL problems in the cars just by LISTENING to the engine running! The german guys were absolute useless in the african country and had NO IDEA what to do with out a plugin station... Sure is a pitty how the industry is manipulating the people to become stupid.

7

 

[Franny K]

Introducing puffs of air into the transfer passages need not be paired with auto tune.

The 421 discussed here is a simple cylinder and uses a catalyst. Whether this and the epa averaging for emissions stuff is behind their top handle and 90+-cc saw having problems getting approved here is something to wonder about. The Husqvarna 543 does not have auto tune for an example of a similar displacement model.

Is there really a correlation between the presence of an auto tune/m tronic system and a lower clean air index on the tag a new saw comes with? The ones that introduce puffs of fresh air whatever trade mark word they make up. I noticed the Dolmar 6100 got a 3 out of 10 and that has no auto tune.

 

[Chris-PA]

My point is the saw shops now have to diagnose new saws via computer diagnostics

This is what I disagree on. The saw is mechanically just as it always was, and the carb is very similar to what it's been for years too. I think people run around with their hair on fire because it's "electronic", and think they can't be worked on, but the differences are very small. Pretty much the same old carb with a cheap micro adjusting the mixture.

Here's the reality: very few people ever understood how the old non-feedback carbs work anyway! They can unscrew covers and replace parts and make adjustments, but the inner workings are a big mystery to most (not all). How many threads have there been on here about how someone swapped all the parts but still can't figure out why the carb doesn't work? Yet that lack of understanding is somehow different if electronics are involved.

All that maintenance and parts replacement stuff is the same with AT, except for the mixture needles which are now computer controlled.

Then people confuse strato and AT (there are strato saws without feedback carbs, and feedback carbs without strato). Strato is also stone simple - even more so now with split air flow carbs, as there isn't even one additional moving part.

 

[MountainHigh]

This is what I disagree on. The saw is mechanically just as it always was, and the carb is very similar to what it's been for years too. I think people run around with their hair on fire because it's "electronic", and think they can't be worked on, but the differences are very small. Pretty much the same old carb with a cheap micro adjusting the mixture.

I value your knowledge Chris, but I just checked and I don't think I'm on fire , just stating the facts as I see them. As you may know, my autotune saw is in the shop and has had to wait for latest diagnostic software to show up before they could make any pronouncements ... and like 7sleeper said in his post, they are relying on the software to tell them what is wrong with it.

Can you and I put a new later model carb on my saw without the related software and updates? Evidently we can't, so therein lies the rub and the way this industry, along with car and truck repair industry is going. Does this move to the current digital domain mean all backyard saw guys are immediately out of work, absolutely not, but if the car and truck industry are any bellwethers, give it time. I'm happy to now have 2 old school saws still around and am going to do some more 2 stroke tear down rebuild learning.

 

[zogger]

I value your knowledge Chris, but I just checked and I don't think I'm on fire , just stating the facts as I see them. As you may know, my autotune saw is in the shop and has had to wait for latest diagnostic software to show up before they could make any pronouncements ... and like 7sleeper said in his post, they are relying on the software to tell them what is wrong with it.

Can you and I put a new later model carb on my saw without the related software and updates? Evidently we can't, so therein lies the rub and the way this industry, along with car and truck repair industry is going. Does this move to the current digital domain mean all backyard saw guys are immediately out of work, absolutely not, but if the car and truck industry are any bellwethers, give it time. I'm happy to now have 2 old school saws still around and am going to do some more 2 stroke tear down rebuild learning.

Eventually, when there is enough demand and some geeks with knowledge feel so inclined, someone will build a new image to reflash what is there, making it easier to work on them yourself. Having to go through a dealer or pay big bucks for fifty cents worth of cable and software is...sucks, just sucks.

Or someone will mix and match parts and get an AT or MT saw going with all old school "analog" parts and just eliminate all the computer controlled jazz.

I am not against computerized saws, but I am against closed source proprietary and price gouging via contrived artificial scarcity..

 

[Chris-PA]

I value your knowledge Chris, but I just checked and I don't think I'm on fire , just stating the facts as I see them. As you may know, my autotune saw is in the shop and has had to wait for latest diagnostic software to show up before they could make any pronouncements ... and like 7sleeper said in his post, they are relying on the software to tell them what is wrong with it.

Can you and I put a new later model carb on my saw without the related software and updates? Evidently we can't, so therein lies the rub and the way this industry, along with car and truck repair industry is going. Does this move to the current digital domain mean all backyard saw guys are immediately out of work, absolutely not, but if the car and truck industry are any bellwethers, give it time. I'm happy to now have 2 old school saws still around and am going to do some more 2 stroke tear down rebuild learning.

I think yours was the one that had the bad compression release that fried the cylinder? If it was, the only tie in with AT was that maybe it masked the symptoms and when it got bad enough that it could not compensate then the cylinder got damaged (I would still like to see a warning light).

Anyway, it's perfect example of what I'm saying - it was a mechanical problem on an unrelated part, and there's no indication there was ever anything wrong with the fuel system. Why don't you have your saw back yet??!!! How long does it take to put on a new piston, cylinder and ring, and a compression release that works? But because it's electronic everyone's afraid of the darn thing and you're still out a saw for nothing. I wonder if they keep it in a cage at night?

A leaking CR made it lean, made it run hotter, damaged the P&C and led to increased vapor lock issues. There's no guarantee you'd have caught it in time if it wasn't AT, although we'd all like to think we would. Had the leak been smaller, it's quite possible AT could have compensated for it and prevented damage that would otherwise occurred.

 

[MountainHigh]

Why don't you have your saw back yet??!!! How long does it take to put on a new piston, cylinder and ring, and a compression release that works? But because it's electronic everyone's afraid of the darn thing and you're still out a saw for nothing. I wonder if they keep it in a cage at night?

lol - yep, it's taking a long time alright. I think they had to first get the software, then take some training before they could read it and then diagnose along with HQ tech dept. Evidently now standard practice for autotune saws

But I digress - I don't want to highjack this nice thread about our shiny new Makita ea4300 and Dolmar PS421.

 

[SawTroll]

Introducing puffs of air into the transfer passages need not be paired with auto tune.

The 421 discussed here is a simple cylinder and uses a catalyst. Whether this and the epa averaging for emissions stuff is behind their top handle and 90+-cc saw having problems getting approved here is something to wonder about. The Husqvarna 543 does not have auto tune for an example of a similar displacement model.

Is there really a correlation between the presence of an auto tune/m tronic system and a lower clean air index on the tag a new saw comes with? The ones that introduce puffs of fresh air whatever trade mark word they make up. I noticed the Dolmar 6100 got a 3 out of 10 and that has no auto tune.

I believe the main advantage about Autotune in the EPA setting is that the carb basically becomes "tamper proof". The there is no need for the silly solutions we some times see, to make regular carbs tamper proof enough to satisfy the EPA, and there is no risk of too rich (for the EPA or otherwise) carb settings. Of course it also eliminates the risk of too lean carb settings, but that has nothing to do with the EPA.

 

[LittleLebowski]

But I digress - I don't want to highjack this nice thread about our shiny new Makita ea4300 and Dolmar PS421.

I don't mind the tangent but you owe us a Makita update when you finally cut with it!

 

[LittleLebowski]

Serious question: what is actually needed for accessing the new saws' data?

 

[CoreyB]

Computer, software, and dongle/ cable