Sam R
8mm Socket
Okie he put up p/c pics already and the consensus myself included is that this saw was straight gassed or not enough oil was in it.
Is the shop lying to me and next steps?
- Thread starter WoodLuvr
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Chainsaw Jim
CJ Saws, LLC
Why question the shop not using scientific data to prove a diagnosis of bad oil and then continue on to give advice to change brands?
Well, FWIW!!!
Straight gassed piston...
Bad fuel..
The bad fuel leaves lots of carbon behind where straight gas typically leaves a much cleaner friction damage.
Think of when taking a file to aluminum with a heavy hand how big chunks start sticking to the file. Same thing with flat sanding on sandpaper. Friction with little or no heat will transfer aluminum in the worst way.
A lean condition will also leave carbon with scoring.
Most shops don't have room to stock up on parts and only order them as required. I hate to say it, but the guy did perform the work necessary to list and order, and stihl doesn't refund special ordered items.
Though what do I know? I'm just working on saws every day for a living. Feeling sorry for customers and cutting corners to help them pinch pennies always comes back and bites me on the ass so I've learned to just be a straight shooter.
Well, FWIW!!!
Straight gassed piston...
Bad fuel..
The bad fuel leaves lots of carbon behind where straight gas typically leaves a much cleaner friction damage.
Think of when taking a file to aluminum with a heavy hand how big chunks start sticking to the file. Same thing with flat sanding on sandpaper. Friction with little or no heat will transfer aluminum in the worst way.
A lean condition will also leave carbon with scoring.
Most shops don't have room to stock up on parts and only order them as required. I hate to say it, but the guy did perform the work necessary to list and order, and stihl doesn't refund special ordered items.
Though what do I know? I'm just working on saws every day for a living. Feeling sorry for customers and cutting corners to help them pinch pennies always comes back and bites me on the ass so I've learned to just be a straight shooter.
Tony ray
ArboristSite Operative
That is one huge thumb.
The saw looks like it was tuned on the lean side and the scoring appears to be heat related. The cylinder is scrap as the plating has delaminated. If this was a straight gas failure I'd expect to see more aluminum transfer on the cylinder walls and less carbon deposits. The large amount of carbon deposit is telling me oil breakdown from thermal failure. Hard to say exactly its from one individual cause but the 50:1 boat oil didnt help IMO.I'm back! Finally got the time to get on here and give you guys an update. Sorry for the delay. You all will be pleased to know that I was able to take possession of my saw before they started on it.
I didn't want to risk him lying to me about starting the work so when I arrived I simply asked to see it instead of just opening up with I want to cancel and take it home. He was like, "Why do you want to see it?" Uh, because it's mine. Then when I saw he hadn't started I told him I changed my mind and wanted it back. He got damn cross and said he has the parts on order so I'm inconveniencing him because now has to cancel it and because of that he's charging me a full hours labor - $80. I thought, no surprise. Just gimme my stuff. Don't worry. I won't bother you anymore.
Firstly, I don't know why he couldn't just use those parts for another 660. They're pretty common and he's got the busiest shop in town. That way he'd already have 'em on hand to speed up work for the next poor chap. But oh well, whatever, okay. Secondly, I know it took them no more that a half hour to tear that saw down. They told me they never first do a bleed down test; ergo, that reduced the amount of time they spent on diagnosis. They said they just always tear into whatever they suspect is the most likely cause. Not a good practice, right? According to some of you veterans the real cause of the P&C failure could lie with a bigger problem.
Of course I also got back my MS250. As you can see from the invoice they even replaced my starter rope. Can anyone tell me why it might have needed a new rope if it seemed just fine to begin with? Also, the old plug still looks perfectly fine and I'm obviously not that experienced yet but the carb parts they replaced look okay to me. I know the sprocket would have been a super easy fix to do myself and I actually started to but felt overwhelmed when searching online for a replacement to match. Also, at that time I figured why not just have them do it at the same time as fixing my other saw. I didn't know the sprocket would end up costing $142.15 just like I didn't know they would try to charge me over $700 for the 660.
Some have wondered why I didn't grab up my saws at first when I was there the other day. I know I should have. It's complicated. Well, like I said, I was in a real hurry to be to work number one so I wasn't thinking straight. Secondly, I didn't find out they performed the unauthorized work on my 250 until after I agreed to the $500 quote which I did for two reasons. One, I really wanted that saw fixed right away and as I said $500 was much more realistic. I did already want to fix it myself so I could learn and be independent in that regard but I have so much going on right now. Two, that guy is a longtime patron of the business I work at. So, I felt in a tight spot because I had to be careful about how I dealt with him. And just so you know he is an authorized Stihl dealer and the biggest in the area. It's in the capital of Florida. There you go. Hopefully that is all behind me now. I have my saws and I guess I won't be back there. Now, on to the show!
I told y'all I'd snap some photos. Are these pictures telling?
I was trying to find the Stihl failure analysis manual but could locate it. Here is one that should shed some light on the situation.
Pay attention to the last page under stuck rings.
Piston Scoring
Marshy, Is there anyway you can email me the stuff in your replay to his thread? I couldn't copy & paste it, because it only shows it as the last Echo page & won't let me copy each on individually.
Marshy, Is there anyway you can email me the stuff in your replay to his thread? I couldn't copy & paste it, because it only shows it as the last Echo page & won't let me copy each on individually.
banditt007
ArboristSite Operative
"Stuck rings caused by deposits, likely causes too much oil (how much is too much?), stale fuel, uncertified oil and rich fuel mixtures"
Interesting- I would have thought rich fuel mixtures would not make the deposits. Figuring, rich fuel mix keeps everything cool and washed down. What have guys seen on milling setups that run extra rich to keep things cool? piston ring deposits?
Interesting- I would have thought rich fuel mixtures would not make the deposits. Figuring, rich fuel mix keeps everything cool and washed down. What have guys seen on milling setups that run extra rich to keep things cool? piston ring deposits?
Well you guys did convince me to dump almost a gallon of the outboard mix I had and mix up some of the husqvarna mix Tractor supply sells at 45:1. Now I gotta retune everything. I never had a problem with it and would use it again in a pinch but these pictures of scored pistons are enough. The manual for my 028S specifically addresses this.
Thanks. Jason.
Thanks. Jason.
banditt007
ArboristSite Operative
Here is the full engine failure booklet from Echo/Shindiawa. YOU MIGHT WANT TO DOWNLOAD AND SAVE THIS, OR PUT IT IN A STICKY!!
http://texanalovestories.mathisacommonlanguage.com/PDFFiles_/(0005)Engine Failure Analysis Booklet.pdf
http://texanalovestories.mathisacommonlanguage.com/PDFFiles_/(0005)Engine Failure Analysis Booklet.pdf
Banditt007 that is fantastic. Thank you.
I think the dealer is bashing himself.
I hope nobody takes any side other than that of reason. We don't have time for this.
Nobody else on here knows me from Adam so y'all don't know what my intentions are or if I'm exaggerating in anything I've said. I know what though. I know I just wanted to learn about oil and get my saw fixed.
At this point let's just say the whole thing was my fault. No, really. 'Cause I don't have the time.
I didn't know then what I know now. I put water cooled oil in an air cooled motor at the same ratio as that for air cooled oil. Not good.
Can we move on?
I do apologize for the tone of that comment. I let my frustration out at the wrong time. You know how it is when you put very clear details in a Craigslist ad or likewise and people simply don't read what you wrote. It's pretty darn annoying.
My situation is literally completely different. In your example you only replaced what he told you to. Then you informed him it would be more to fix it if he wanted. Then he got mad at you for doing what he asked.
He definitely treated you wrong. But he was your brother-in-law.
In this situation fact is my saw was running like a top as far as I knew and the shop replaced parts without authorization.
However, I believe it may have been due me not being specific enough. When I told the person I wanted them to make sure everything was in good working order I assumed they would call me if there were other problems found. I should have added that I wanted them to call me first if they found other problems.
I like your creative use of prose here. Sounds like you've dealt with this before.
We're a lot alike you and me. We should get together.
That's right. When I brought it in for the first free service as far as I knew it was running okay. Probably didn't know what a good running saw sounds like. I don't know what part they replaced. They weren't specific but they did say it was some part that they have seen come in defective from the factory before. And for the record, I don't hold that against Stihl or them. It happens.
I hope nobody takes any side other than that of reason. We don't have time for this.
Nobody else on here knows me from Adam so y'all don't know what my intentions are or if I'm exaggerating in anything I've said. I know what though. I know I just wanted to learn about oil and get my saw fixed.
At this point let's just say the whole thing was my fault. No, really. 'Cause I don't have the time.
I didn't know then what I know now. I put water cooled oil in an air cooled motor at the same ratio as that for air cooled oil. Not good.
Can we move on?
I do apologize for the tone of that comment. I let my frustration out at the wrong time. You know how it is when you put very clear details in a Craigslist ad or likewise and people simply don't read what you wrote. It's pretty darn annoying.
My situation is literally completely different. In your example you only replaced what he told you to. Then you informed him it would be more to fix it if he wanted. Then he got mad at you for doing what he asked.
He definitely treated you wrong. But he was your brother-in-law.
In this situation fact is my saw was running like a top as far as I knew and the shop replaced parts without authorization.
However, I believe it may have been due me not being specific enough. When I told the person I wanted them to make sure everything was in good working order I assumed they would call me if there were other problems found. I should have added that I wanted them to call me first if they found other problems.
I like your creative use of prose here. Sounds like you've dealt with this before.
We're a lot alike you and me. We should get together.
That's right. When I brought it in for the first free service as far as I knew it was running okay. Probably didn't know what a good running saw sounds like. I don't know what part they replaced. They weren't specific but they did say it was some part that they have seen come in defective from the factory before. And for the record, I don't hold that against Stihl or them. It happens.
The take away could be have all necessary consumables in the event of natural or man made disaster.
cuinrearview
Red saw lover
No markings you say?
There should be script along the sides if the cylinder base flange.
dougand3
Addicted to ArboristSite
Compare cyl to this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/STIHL-CHAI...J5Xdqpl:sc:USPSPriority!35757!US!-1:rk:8:pf:0
https://www.ebay.com/itm/STIHL-CHAI...J5Xdqpl:sc:USPSPriority!35757!US!-1:rk:8:pf:0
True enough.
Yup, it's aftermarket. It is pretty similar in design but not exactly the same. If it's Stihl there's no way they wouldn't but their badge on it. They put their logo on even the tiniest of parts.
Owner told me he put a brand new OEM top end on that saw before I bought it from him.
D
Deleted member 135597
Guest
Or he kept your cylinder because it wasn’t scored..........
cuinrearview
Red saw lover
You might as well call out the shop
Rick Stephens
ArboristSite Operative
Move forward. That cylinder is trash, time to replace it. I like the Hyway kits for value and quality at the price. Grab one and go to building.
I do like the price. That's for darn sure. But opinions on quality are split right down the middle and that scares me. I think I might go NOS on eBay when I get the dough.
For now, is there anything I can/should check out on the saw before I get the parts and start the rebuild? Maybe I should put it back together enough to do a bleed down test. What you say?
For now, is there anything I can/should check out on the saw before I get the parts and start the rebuild? Maybe I should put it back together enough to do a bleed down test. What you say?
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