MD's watering page

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I see MDVaden has a page on watering.
The website is very well done, attractive and clear.
Does anyone else think his watering recommendations are on the heavy side? Is it because Oregon has rainforests?
Isn't keeping soils continuously moist asking for soil/root fungus problems, as well as lowering soil gas exchange?

 

[Elmore]

I see MDVaden has a page on watering.
The website is very well done, attractive and clear.
Does anyone else think his watering recommendations are on the heavy side? Is it because Oregon has rainforests?
Isn't keeping soils continuously moist asking for soil/root fungus problems, as well as lowering soil gas exchange?

Yeah, a nice site but I too think that he advocates a bit too much water.

"In the spring or summer, water shrubs - 1 gallon to 3 gallon size root balls - almost every second day when weather is 55 degrees to 75 degrees. If the weather is 75 degrees to 95 degrees, watering may be needed every day. If the weather is above 95 degrees, water every day, and maybe twice a day."

I don't think that much is necessary for the first two seasons. I do water mine in quite heavily at first and two to three times per week for awhile thereafter, depending on the rainfall and temperature. We are in a drought, it's been hovering around 100 degrees here for over a month and I have been giving a couple of newly planted Japanese Maples, 1g & a 3g, about 10 to 15 gallons of water per week, applied 2 to 3 times per week using a 5 gallon bucket with a 1/4" tube emanating from the bottom. I recently got a TreeGator Jr and have been using it on some larger, more established trees. I believe that Medford, OR is a bit dry and hot, not like the upper coast.
The key as I see it is to water thoroughly, slowly and deeply and let the medium dry out some in between the next watering.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

MD made the pont about using a dowel poked into the soil, which was good, but never really said what to look for. I'd like to see the dowel just dry out before watering again. He seems to indicate that it's best to keep the dowel wet.(?)
The difference may seem inconsequential, but this year in SE WI, we are having a slightly higher than normal rainfall average, and the fungal problems abound. These conditions can, obviously, be recreated artificially with irrigation.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I didn't say to flood the plants.

I said to keep them moist.

Frequency and volumes are not at all the same.

Did you guys miss the article at the online forums about watering new trees?

It didn't surprise me.

Frequent waterings - keep them moist.

I find the watering practice to be one of the hardest things for homeowners to figure out. If it's sun, or it it's it's shade, the whole thing changes.

The rainfall or inch-of-water totals, just never quite seem to fix-all.

It seems to be one of the more difficult topics to explain

 

[M.D. Vaden]

MD made the pont about using a dowel poked into the soil, which was good, but never really said what to look for. I'd like to see the dowel just dry out before watering again. He seems to indicate that it's best to keep the dowel wet.(?)
The difference may seem inconsequential, but this year in SE WI, we are having a slightly higher than normal rainfall average, and the fungal problems abound. These conditions can, obviously, be recreated artificially with irrigation.

Time for online forums for you Mike.



Actually, I didn't tailor my page to the online forum. I just saw the practice work best for me over time at our 2 acre residence, the country clubs and university campuses.

I might add a couple of paragraphs, though, pertaining to how some soils can fill the hole like a water jug.

Oregon has a lot of that soil nearby creeks and rivers where the soil has some blue color. Not all trees do well in those spots. Certainly not Douglas fir.

 

[begleytree]

Around here we have mostly clay. if you dig a hole, it will hold water. Here I tell folks to let them dry out before watering again, usually a gallon on trees every other day. if it rains, let it dry for a day before beginning watering again. Do that for 10 days (5 waterings) then cut back to a good heavy (3-5 gallon) watering once a week for as long as they want to do it.
I think its a combination of hard to explain, and different locations.
-Ralph

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I remember the soil there in Ohio - even got to set up a tent over it.

A bit humid for my blood, the year I was there in summer.

About the trees, I find that when I put in a 16' tall tree like a birch, and weeks later, it's windy and 95 degrees, the root ball is getting wicked clean of water fast - real fast.

Those are the days when I trickle a bit of water into the root ball to keep it moist, two times a day.

I never let the roots dry out any more for newly planted. Later in a couple of years I will, which causes the roots to anchor deeper. But for esblishment, we maintain a moist rootball.

We never add enough water to water-log the planting hole, since that's flooding, not moistening.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Did you guys miss the article at the online forums about watering new trees?

No, what forums?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I didn't say to flood the plants.

I said to keep them moist.

Frequency and volumes are not at all the same.

There is a word for keeping a plant constantly moist, over-watering.

You want to add enough water to at least moisten the entire ball, and then let it just dry out before watering again.
Usually when it's hot, it's also humid, so not much is lost to eveporation and stomata are closed, so not much is lost to transpiration. That's why I like the idea of a dowel, it's hard to tell when it's dry by the weather.
If you're keeping it constantly moist, what good is a dowel? Just throw some more water on you crop of growing root rot fungi.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Alll plant root balls must have some constant moisture. If a ball is ever in a condition where there is no moisture, the trees are in a state called the permanent wilting point.

If you have a source to some trees that can live without moisture, let us know where these magic trees can be bought.

In Pacific NW states, many of the trees here that are big, naturally are watered beyond just being moistened. In fact, the largest trees are where the most moisture is. And those are not even newly planted trees.

Some of the slowest to establish trees in Oregon, are the reforestation trees, that receive very little supplemental moisture. They survive intially, but don't flourish initially.

Most newly planted trees that are over-watered are trees under the care of persons not properly monitoring the moisture.

I have planted thousands of trees on the golf courses and in landscape contracting. Under my care, or adherance to my advice, nobody has ever lost one tree. No real over-watering occured. My question is this:

If all those thousands of trees established well with continual moistening, why is it Mike, that your trees are over-watered if moistened.

You see, I have thousands of tree examples that testify to success. Why is that? What is that you have not succeeded with, and why? If it's not working for you - meaning it's failed - true, you would not want to promoted whatever failed. For me, it's working, and working well. So at this end, there is no overwatering.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

There's an article I found, I think from Oregon State University, about roots and water. If I find it, I'll post the link. Anyhow, the article mentioned that roots don't grow "to" or toward moisture. It stated that roots only grow where there is moisture. It's been a while since I read the page. If anybody stumbles on it first, post the link.

 

[Elmore]

Here are some sites worth looking at. Much information bolsters all of your advice. As for my practice I water slow, deep and infrequently. The first watering on a newly set tree is the most important one. I really soak it heavy and repeatedly. Important considerations are soil type, exposure, plant type, projected temperature.

http://www.state.sc.us/forest/urbsurv.htm

http://www.horticulturist.com/mastermag8/planting.htm

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1056.htm

 

[begleytree]

the article mentioned that roots don't grow "to" or toward moisture. It stated that roots only grow where there is moisture.

Huh? last time I looked, roots grew 360 degrees. Like to see that link Vaden. Maybe we can all chip in and buy Oregon SU an air spade. I think they'll find a few more roots than that!
I'll hold off anything else until I read that 'study'
-Ralph

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Huh? last time I looked, roots grew 360 degrees. Like to see that link Vaden. Maybe we can all chip in and buy Oregon SU an air spade. I think they'll find a few more roots than that!
I'll hold off anything else until I read that 'study'
-Ralph

Oh, I doubt they need a tree spade. I think you just need to think of one or two ways that a statement can be understood.

To repeat the point, in other words, the article stated that roots don't grow in a dry moisture-less area of soil, and grow toward a moist water-containing area of soil.

It stated that the roots grow while in the presense of moisture.

I just finished adding about 20 pages to my website this week, but when I get an extra hour or two this week, I'm going to fine-tune the vocabulary on the watering page.

It seems that some people have different versions or interpretations of words like "moisture" or "wet" or "soaked".

 

[Ekka]

So, let me run this by you guys.

Relatively juvenile tree, planted say 2 years ago.

You water consistently more outside of the drip line and purposefully let the area under the drip line dry out.

Are you saying that the roots wont grow toward the moisture from the dry area under the drip line?

I just need to clear this up for my own piece of mind. In fact, I was taught that creating a more root suitable environment with nutrient and moisture away from structures would encourage root to that area. Are you saying that is not so if the root origin is dry as roots need to be moist?

 

[begleytree]

Can't debate the veracity of their statements without a link, Vaden.
-Ralph

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Roots grow, on a microscopic level at the tips, just like a branch, and in diameter. The direction the tip grows depends on what it encounters as it grows. The speed a root grows is determined by soil oxygen, moisture, texture, and fertility. So roots grow most, where conditions are best.
For the sake of discussion, let's agree soil can be dry, moist, or wet. It may seem that wet or dry are bad, and moist is perfect. This is simply not true. The cycle between wet and dry is very important for a number of reasons.
The first thing we need to understand is that it's not bad for a tree to be wet or dry, if it's not long term. You can trust me, because here in WI, we get wet in the spring, almost daily soaking rains, and dry in the summer, sometimes weeks of heat and no rain, and we have plenty of trees.
Cycling between wet and dry is important because it determines soil O2 levels. When you have actively growing roots, they transpire, give off CO2. the pores of soil need to empty out completely of water before new O2 can be pulled in. If you have constantly moist soil, the micro pores never fill with O2.
You end up with roots trying grow actively because of the moisture, but unable to because of poor soil gas exchange.
Another big problem with constantly moist soil are root rot fungus. Root rots are a big problem for woody plants grown in irrigated planting sites. The rots thrive in constantly moist soils.
All one needs to do to improve the planting conditions is less. Wait until the dowel just dries out, then water.

 

[Ekka]

It's late, catch up tomorrow on this one.

Mike, I think you mean respire.

 

[begleytree]

Couldn't agree more Maas, very well stated.
Imagine an environment where it was always hot underground, zero gas exchange, zero water, and enormous compaction. You are saying (that they said) roots will not grow in these conditions. Yet thousands of miles of asphalt and concrete roadbeds/ driveways are repaired each year due to this exact problem.
And don't forget parking lots and sidewalks.
Funny some big old sycamore trees growing on the creekbanks have no roots in the water, they all grow back into or along the bank. the soil washes completely out from under them, you can see it quite clearly.
-Ralph

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Roots grow, on a microscopic level at the tips, just like a branch, and in diameter. The direction the tip grows depends on what it encounters as it grows. The speed a root grows is determined by soil oxygen, moisture, texture, and fertility. So roots grow most, where conditions are best.
For the sake of discussion, let's agree soil can be dry, moist, or wet. It may seem that wet or dry are bad, and moist is perfect. This is simply not true. The cycle between wet and dry is very important for a number of reasons.
The first thing we need to understand is that it's not bad for a tree to be wet or dry, if it's not long term. You can trust me, because here in WI, we get wet in the spring, almost daily soaking rains, and dry in the summer, sometimes weeks of heat and no rain, and we have plenty of trees.
Cycling between wet and dry is important because it determines soil O2 levels. When you have actively growing roots, they transpire, give off CO2. the pores of soil need to empty out completely of water before new O2 can be pulled in. If you have constantly moist soil, the micro pores never fill with O2.
You end up with roots trying grow actively because of the moisture, but unable to because of poor soil gas exchange.
Another big problem with constantly moist soil are root rot fungus. Root rots are a big problem for woody plants grown in irrigated planting sites. The rots thrive in constantly moist soils.
All one needs to do to improve the planting conditions is less. Wait until the dowel just dries out, then water.

That, again, brings up the permanent wilting point.

Soil must always be moist. If there is no moisture, trees die, because the permanent wilting point is permanent.

That's why the concept of keeping tree root balls moist, is the only safe advice.

Remember to keep this in context. The context of the opening post, deals with an advice page that is available to homeowners.

The context also, is newly planted trees. Those trees, cannot, for the first weeks, get water from outside the rootball. All roots are inside the rootball.

So, now, here is a question for you. When soil is not saturated, where the particles are moist, and the soil capillaries have air, which fungi exactly are you saying will grow?

Remember, trees can't live without moisture. So in this neccessary presence of water, what fungi are you talking about?