Mix ratio -- observing the blue smoke

[holeycow]

Better men than us have proven otherwise through real-world testing and repeated engine teardowns. My own (and friends') experimentation, while minor in comparison, has aligned with their recommendations. We blew enough **** up in the quest for power (while following the recommendations of mfrs of machinery and oils) to learn better. This with bikes for many years.

when you follow the mfrs current recommendations (which really are a result of epa regulations), your equipment does not have the same durability as when you use common sense and the work of true professional racers as a guideline.

why do you think the modern saws don't live a long life like saws of old? A lot of it has to do with inadequate lubrication. Duh. Imo it's all about saving the crank. Pistons are maintenance items. 50:1 may be ok for top ends. May. But it will reduce bottom end life considerably.

running lean oil ratios makes no sense. 50:1 is on the edge. 40:1 is much safer. 30:1 safer yet, but when you start approaching 30:1 it becomes more difficult to achieve a clean burn. That's where finding the right oil becomes critical. Most oils start to become messy at 35:1 or so.

if you've been running this stuff for only 30+ years at your age you started very late. Or your arithmetic is faulty.

I'm 60 and have been running 2 strokes for nearly 50 years. For what that's worth. Nothing.

 

[North by Northwest]

Better men than us have proven otherwise through real-world testing and repeated engine teardowns. My own (and friends') experimentation, while minor in comparison, has aligned with their recommendations. We blew enough **** up in the quest for power (while following the recommendations of mfrs of machinery and oils) to learn better. This with bikes for many years.

when you follow the mfrs current recommendations (which really are a result of epa regulations), your equipment does not have the same durability as when you use common sense and the work of true professional racers as a guideline.

why do you think the modern saws don't live a long life like saws of old? A lot of it has to do with inadequate lubrication. Duh. Imo it's all about saving the crank. Pistons are maintenance items. 50:1 may be ok for top ends. May. But it will reduce bottom end life considerably.

running lean oil ratios makes no sense. 50:1 is on the edge. 40:1 is much safer. 30:1 safer yet, but when you start approaching 30:1 it becomes more difficult to achieve a clean burn. That's where finding the right oil becomes critical. Most oils start to become messy at 35:1 or so.

if you've been running this stuff for only 30+ years at your age you started very late. Or your arithmetic is faulty.

I'm 60 and have been running 2 strokes for nearly 50 years. For what that's worth. Nothing.

I have been running saws snowmobiles & dirtbikes since I was 15 , do the math .P.S. did not own a trimmer or blower until 35 lol . Raced snowmobiles professionally in Kawatha Cup in Peterbourgh and Eagle River Wisconsin . Have torn down more engines than you have ran saws . Still have two vintage pioneer saws that were recommended for 16:1 with sae. 30 in the 60,s and I upgraded to 40:1 in the 70,s (Opti2) when 2 stroke oil technology came to reality . Both these saws have usage every yr for sentimental reasons over the last 10 yrs @ 50:1 FC rated Sabre oil . Your preaching to the choir , the fact remains that 50:1 is the norm as advised by almost all saw manufacturers . If you like 40 :1 fine , especially if you run hotsaws . However for the average Joe running a firewood saw annually 50 :1 is more than adequate with Maxima or even Motul FD rated oils today , hell have ran saws @ 80:1 in competition and in snowmobile grass drag sleds with air cooled & liquid cooled engines with only FC rated syn oil with great results . ..anyhow typical oil thread . "You can take a horse to water however sometimes you must drown it to get it to drink!"

 

[Slotracer577]

50:1 is more about emissions than getting maximum power or protection. More than one test has been done showing that more oil makes more power until you add so much oil it won’t run. Do some research on oil migration. I expect based on how much oil is left in the bottom end, even the 40:1 I run isn’t really enough. Hint, there is not a deep enough pool left after running.

 

[holeycow]

I have been running saws snowmobiles & dirtbikes since I was 15 , do the math .P.S. did not own a trimmer or blower until 35 lol . Raced snowmobiles professionally in Kawatha Cup in Peterbourgh and Eagle River Wisconsin . Have torn down more engines than you have ran saws . Still have two pioneer saws that were recommended for 16:1 with sae. 30 in the 60,s and I upgraded to 40:1 in the 70,s ( Opti2) when 2 stroke oil technology came to reality . Both these saws have usage every yr for over the last 20 yrs @ 50:1 FC rated oils . Your preaching to the choir , the fact remains that 50:1 is the norm as advised by almost all saw manufacturers . If you like 40 :1 fine , especially if you run hotsaws . However for the average Joe running a firewood saw annually 50 :1 is more than adequate with FD rated oil , hell have ran saws @ 80:1 in competition in grass drag sleds ..anyhow typical oil thread . "You can take a horse to water however sometimes you must drown it to get it to drink!"

and after all that you never really learned how to jet that equipment, or you would have learned... compensating for poor jetting with leaner oil mixes is one of the ways we failed many years ago.

anyway, it's been fun. Let's agree to disagree and get over it.

regards

 

[North by Northwest]

50:1 is more about emissions than getting maximum power or protection. More than one test has been done showing that more oil makes more power until you add so much oil it won’t run. Do some research on oil migration. I expect based on how much oil is left in the bottom end, even the 40:1 I run isn’t really enough. Hint, there is not a deep enough pool left after running.

50:1 is about better oil technology allowing a lesser oil ratio protect the metal engine components better than with conventional mineral oils at a greater ratio , which not only contributes to a happy epa but also a cleaner more efficient engine , without excessive carbon fouled heads , piston & rings ! P.S. the crank & bearing are lubricated by a fine mist of fuel and oil charge not a splash system (pooling) although modern oil injection systems within some 2 stroke engine applications do supply a form of pressurized system to the main crank bearing assemblies e.g. snowmobile & watercraft .

 

[holeycow]

He's not talking about a splash system...

and carbon fouling has nothing to do with oil ratio.

 

[Slotracer577]

50:1 is about better oil technology allowing a lesser oil ratio protect the metal engine components better than with conventional mineral oils at a greater ratio , which not only contributes to a happy epa but also a cleaner more efficient engine , without excessive carbon fouled heads , piston & rings ! P.S. the crank & bearing are lubricated by a fine mist of fuel and oil charge not a splash system (puddle) although modern oil injection systems within some 2 stroke engine applications do supply a form of pressurized system to the main crank bearing assemblies e.g. snowmobile & watercraft .

Trust me I fully understand how oiling works on both 2-st and 4-st. Been racing motorcycles for almost 30 years. Blown up a few motors along the way. while The “new” oils are better, that is all I have ever run. They were new when I started racing. Unfortunately 2-st is a dying technology and there is not a lot of development going on except for decreasing emissions.
When people do oil migration testing with tracers, small bore, high rpm 2-st need lots of good oil. http://www.tlr-online.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Maxima_Tips.61180056.html. Straight from the oil manufacturer. Another http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm
one thing that probably saves our saws is they don’t make much power per cc. A 125 road race bike makes 40+ hp, a 80cc dirt bike makes 15+. Heck our 80cc saws wont make 7 without porting.

 

[North by Northwest]

and after all that you never really learned how to jet that equipment, or you would have learned... compensating for poor jetting with leaner oil mixes is one of the ways we failed many years ago.

anyway, it's been fun. Let's agree to disagree and get over it.

regards

Back at Yeah Bud !

He's not talking about a splash system...

and carbon fouling has nothing to do with oil ratio.

Pooling , is what I assumed he was referring too . Any 2 stroke engine I have ever had apart has had more than sufficient residual oil and fuel in the crankcase to prevent galling or seizure issues . 40:1 or 50:1 is a minute difference anyways lets quit splitting hairs Alberta boy ! However since you brought it up , excessive oil ratio has everything to do with carbon fouling when it cannot be burnt completely it obviously accumulates within the combustion chamber causing localized hot spots (demon heat) & fouling potential of piston rings and eventual blowby & piston skirt damage & further causing environmental emissions and overall lack of performance !

 

[Bwildered]

It is a proven mechanical engineering fact, that the more oil burned in the combustion chamber will reduce the life of the bore, piston & rings. Carbon is an abrasive byproduct of combustion. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp either when considered with an open mind.

 

[Andyshine77]

It is a proven mechanical engineering fact, that the more oil burned in the combustion chamber will reduce the life of the bore, piston & rings. Carbon is an abrasive byproduct of combustion. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp either when considered with an open mind.

More oil doesn't equal more carbon with proper tuning. In fact due to the dispersants in modern two cycle oil I see less buildup with more oil. Carbon is the least cause of failure I see in 2 cycle engines.

 

[North by Northwest]

Hey, question about mix ratio, and how it changes the smoke output, and/or if smoke output is a relative thing to base lubricating ability.

I mix at 50:1 with Stihl conventional oil(white bottle mix, Canada) and I've been skeptical on it's lubrication ability with how much smoke is emitted. I've also ran motomix, and also not much smoke comes out. Then I see guys' saws pouring out blue smoke....gives me that warm fuzzy feeling that things are being adequately lubed. No idea their oil type or mix ratio.

Is 50:1 really just "good enough" and is fueled by an emissions stand point? Emissions and BS aside, should I run a heavier oil mixture?
Does a lack of blue smoke necessarily suggest under lubrication?

You must 1st understand that two forms of ratio or mixture can cause what you describe . Excessive oil to fuel ratio or mixed fuel to air ratio will cause the same excessive smoking . Yes epa guidelines have a lot to do with leaner oil to fuel ratios today within 2 stroke oils thus all the technology changes within Group I thru V oils , where numerous additives are blended into the base oil to protect against various engine oil deficiencies through various oil use applications .

 

[holeycow]

"When it cannot be burnt"

Truer words never spoken.

 

[North by Northwest]

More oil doesn't equal more carbon with proper tuning. In fact due to the dispersants in modern two cycle oil I see less buildup with more oil. Carbon is the least cause of failure I see in 2 cycle engines.

who said anything about proper tuning Andre you have selective hearing ? I'am saying a saw tuned from the factory for 50:1 ratio as Husky , Stihl , Dolmar does not need 40:1 that's quite apparent since factory engineers decide this not backyard hacks such as you and holycow !!

 

[holeycow]

There's an Echo in here..Bwildered and Broken. Birds of a feather.

Factory engineers design stuff that breaks. "Backyard hacks" sometimes fix it.

 

[North by Northwest]

who said anything about proper tuning Andre you have selective hearing ? I'am saying a saw tuned from the factory for 50:1 ratio as Husky , Stihl , Dolmar does not need 40:1 that's quite apparent since factory engineers decide this not backyard hacks such as you and holycow !!

Why recreate the wheel ! Retune a saw for 40:1 oil ratio why ? Do you reverse engineer your outboard. Etec emissions oil injection system , you guys are absurd ! Adios , you guys suffer from the big fish in the small pond syndrome lmao .

 

[North by Northwest]

There's an Echo in here..Bwildered and Broken. Birds of a feather.

Factory engineers design stuff that breaks. "Backyard hacks" sometimes fix it.

Not with your record of blowing things up ace !

 

[Miles86]

I miss the 6 packs of oil in metal pint cans, with the plastic band holder, made 2 gallons per pint.

 

[albert]

Back at Yeah Bud !

Pooling , is what I assumed he was referring too . Any 2 stroke engine I have ever had apart has had more than sufficient residual oil and fuel in the crankcase to prevent galling or seizure issues . 40:1 or 50:1 is a minute difference anyways lets quit splitting hairs bc boy ! However since you brought it up , excessive oil ratio has everything to do with carbon fouling when it cannot be burnt it obviously accumulates within the combustion chamber causing localized hot spots (demon heat) and fouling potential of piston rings .and eventual blowby and environmental emissions and overall lack of performance !

How does "oil that can not be burnt" make carbon?

 

[Bwildered]

More oil doesn't equal more carbon with proper tuning. In fact due to the dispersants in modern two cycle oil I see less buildup with more oil. Carbon is the least cause of failure I see in 2 cycle engines.

So all that extra oil that's put in the fuel tank is mysteriously burnt somewhere else, then bypasses the cylinder & then appears out the end of the exhaust? Carbon wears out the bore , piston & rings from it being abrasive, you aren't going to see a failure , just wear.
I must add, that it is the oil burnt on the cylinder walls which causes excessive wear .

 

[farmguywithasaw]