MS361 fractured crankcase... what to expect from Stihl?

[SawTroll]

What are you talking about Nikko? The operator manual that comes with each Stihl saw basically says the same thing ......

Of course the manual say so, for liability reasons - but that doesn't mean that it is a sound thing to actually do!

 

[stihlrookie]

Handbrake doesn't touch the wall of the trailer. Saws set in on an angle- about 10" from the power head to the wall.



I'll have to look when I get back to the office, but as I recall, three of the five were close, and two in opposite directions of production. Four of the five were purchased at the same time and will be 4 years old this May, and the 5th saw was purchased almost two years ago.


As far as handbrake use/training...
general rule: walking more than 10ft between cuts, set your brake. Moving more than 50ft between trees, kill your saw.
crews are shown the spool-down of a chain and when to, and not to set their brake.
Something dumb like being seen setting the brake with the palm of your hand (except in particular circumstances) puts you on swamper duty for awhile. Training is thumb-wrap never leaves handlebar and it's a roll of the wrist to set the brake.

I'm definitely open to the fact that operator miss-use has a potentially big factor to play here, but the idea that five saws, representing a moderate timeline of production (but not great), all fail in the same spot within a two-month period. My guess is that we'd have found all five saws with the stress fracture at the same time if I knew to be looking for it.

I'll keep you posted. Left a voice mail and another email with Stihl today.

It sounds like you know what you are doing for sure. As long as your crews are following your training instructions then I think operator error can be ruled out. The failed crankcase could very well just be the casulty of extended use in a commercial application. This will be interesting to see what Stihl has to say.

 

[SkippyKtm]

This problem is metal fatigue is all, I've seen similar results with the 044/ms440, 046/ms460 with wallered out holes for the brake pins. I've also seen related issues with the 372 too. If people are going to be trained to constantly trip their chain brakes whenever they move more than 10 feet, the chain brake assemblies are going to have to be beefed up by the manufacturers. Currently, neither Stihl or Husky have designed their saws to withstand such frequent use. I've seen logging crews who do not intentionally activate their chain brakes at all, the brake is just there in case of a kickback incident, and they have no such issues.

Personally as long as the saw is working properly so that the chain doesn't spin while idling, and the throttle interlock works as it should, I see constantly tripping the brake to be unnecessary. Most likely insurance companies require it. I remember a phone message from exxon/mobil we as service techs had to listen to preaching to us to "always wear your PPE, and always wear gloves when using power tools" which is the opposite of what you're supposed to do....

 

[RED-85-Z51]

I was always taught, if you are going to walk away from the saw, or start it cold (high idle set), set the brake, for your and the saws safety. If Im walking around, Ill usually kill it to save gas and to let it cool some.

But...I see a chain brake like I view the emergency brake on a car/truck...its there for situations other than emergencies despite its name.

 

[bcorradi]

Thats what happens when you run junk stihls, :hmm3grin2orange: Husqvarnas dont do that

You have played musical saws/manufacturers for quite some time so when you figure out what you really like let us know

 

[stihlrookie]

I was always taught, if you are going to walk away from the saw, or start it cold (high idle set), set the brake, for your and the saws safety. If Im walking around, Ill usually kill it to save gas and to let it cool some.

But...I see a chain brake like I view the emergency brake on a car/truck...its there for situations other than emergencies despite its name.

Actually they are called parking brakes.

 

[RED-85-Z51]

Actually they are called parking brakes.

On my vehicles, the parking brake is built into the tranny, so when in park..the driveline locks up.

Its worth noting I dont mess with standards....

 

[RED-85-Z51]

I looked it up...

"An emergency brake is a separate brake system in a vehicle for use in case of failure of the regular (hydraulic or air) brakes and commonly used as a parking brake in automobiles."

So its an Emergency brake that people can use as a parking brake...

However its original intention was to be a last resort to slow down if the main brakes failed.

 

[SawTroll]

I looked it up...

"An emergency brake is a separate brake system in a vehicle for use in case of failure of the regular (hydraulic or air) brakes and commonly used as a parking brake in automobiles."

So its an Emergency brake that people can use as a parking brake...

However its original intention was to be a last resort to slow down if the main brakes failed.

The chain brakes are emergency brakes, they are not supposed to be used as "parking brakes" - that just is something their lawyers write into the manuals for liability reasons!

 

[RED-85-Z51]

The chain brakes are emergency brakes, they are not supposed to be used as "parking brakes" - that just is something their lawyers write into the manuals for liability reasons!

What about when Stihl had the brakes that you had to hold the 2nd lever on the top of the rear handle to release, in order to operate the chain?

I cant think of any reason why the chain brake shouldnt be used as a parking brake of sorts..And if the mechanism cant hold up to it..then it is inferior as well as underbuilt.

And why is it that all the other saws have never had any problems...but all the 361's are doing it?

Inferior product..

 

[SkippyKtm]

What about when Stihl had the brakes that you had to hold the 2nd lever on the top of the rear handle to release, in order to operate the chain?

I cant think of any reason why the chain brake shouldnt be used as a parking brake of sorts..And if the mechanism cant hold up to it..then it is inferior as well as underbuilt.

And why is it that all the other saws have never had any problems...but all the 361's are doing it?

Inferior product..

That sounds like the 036CQ/MS361CQ Them are built like Rube Goldberg devices and frequently fail...

LINK

 

[SawTroll]

What about when Stihl had the brakes that you had to hold the 2nd lever on the top of the rear handle to release, in order to operate the chain?

I cant think of any reason why the chain brake shouldnt be used as a parking brake of sorts..And if the mechanism cant hold up to it..then it is inferior as well as underbuilt.

And why is it that all the other saws have never had any problems...but all the 361's are doing it?

Inferior product..

Those brakes was a bad idea that went bad - not much more to say about that!

It was another POS homeowner feature, that was supposed to help those that don't know how to use a saw safely!

 

[mowoodchopper]

You have played musical saws/manufacturers for quite some time so when you figure out what you really like let us know

I know exactly what I like, fishing, catch and release , I just like the part when they bite .:msp_biggrin:

 

[mowoodchopper]

The chain brakes are emergency brakes, they are not supposed to be used as "parking brakes" - that just is something their lawyers write into the manuals for liability reasons!

yep

 

[zogger]

I as well am not buying the operator error theory, at least not yet. A chainbrake is technically supposed to be used as the OP has stated. IMHO, the plastic handle should break long before the case would fracture.

I would agree with you on that one, and also for the reason that the trainees ARE following recommended operating procedures, whereas most people..do not. I would imagine the use of the chainbrake is the exception, not the rule, with most chainsaw users.

It is also common procedure for corporations (and governments) to knee jerk a denial whenever presented with a problem that gives the appearance of being their fault. Just about every recall out there of any product I can remember was preceded by a corporate denial when the problem first manifested and was being reported.

 

[zogger]

Troll I usually find myself agreeing with you but not this time. The chain brake should be used just as the manufacture recommends. Often. The chain brake and the saw it is mounted to are not some delicate components that need kid glove handling. The brake can be applied 50 times each day with no ill effects. It is meant to be used.

The 10'/50' rule is a good one that is common in the fire service. The saws don't break. What the OP's problem is I don't know.

Are you using the same era same model similar production run series saws in your fire service?

 

[justtools]

If you really think about this and read these posts I dont believe this to be a design flaw with stihl. You have used these saws for 5 years and 42 weeks a year. Thats 210 weeks. If the guys are using the brakes as you instructed . They are probably set 20 or more times a day so 100 times a week. 18 to 24 year olds do not engage anything nicely. I have 2 in that age bracket at home. so 4000 chainbrake activations being slammed on causing stress cracks around the mounting pins seems normal to me. Good luck with getting 5 year old stihl saws with 1000s of hours on them to help you with this. Refer to this as a business expense and move on in life.

 

[openloop]

If you really think about this and read these posts I dont believe this to be a design flaw with stihl. You have used these saws for 5 years and 42 weeks a year. Thats 210 weeks. If the guys are using the brakes as you instructed . They are probably set 20 or more times a day so 100 times a week. 18 to 24 year olds do not engage anything nicely. I have 2 in that age bracket at home. so 4000 chainbrake activations being slammed on causing stress cracks around the mounting pins seems normal to me. Good luck with getting 5 year old stihl saws with 1000s of hours on them to help you with this. Refer to this as a business expense and move on in life.

Im sorry but that is a load of chit. No pro grade saw when used properly should develop a structural fracture within 5 years. It should NEVER break there unless it was misused and nothing in the OPs story would lead us to believe they were. The only things that should wear out on that saw after five years are the moving parts or the parts subject to fuel related deterioration e.g. P/C, oiler, bearings, seals, lines, gaskets, carb pumps. Having the case crack on a saw before he even had to change out a piston and jug is ludicrous. Add to that the fracture is at a point that is crucial for the proper function of the chain brake.

OP you should post your serial numbers so anyone in that # range can check their 361's for similar cracks. I could see this being a problem that some might not even know they have.

 

[Philbert]

Wonder if the 362 case is reinforced more at that location?

I hope other 361 users on A.S. take a look for hairline cracks in that area and get back to us on their saws.

dhskier2 - if you don't get a response from your regional STIHL distributor, send a letter (the kind on paper) to STIHL USA in Virginia Beach, stressing the conservation corps nature of your work. These are good programs and are influential on a lot of future saw users.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Philbert

 

[lone wolf]

What if an operator was holding it wide open and slamming the brake on all the time out of stupidity or malice would that do it? I have seen operators that tend to break the same things on each saw they use due top their method!I had climbers that pull the pullcord way to far out and hard for a small saw and consistently break the little plastic engagement pawls.I had another one always get the saw stuck in a cut and wiggle it free with a good amount of force and always bend chain links.I had another one always drop the saw on the lanyard when in a tree and always broke the ring it was attached to.I had guys that lean on saws too hard and always smoke the clutch. i seen Climbers get the saw stuck and pull on it like a SOB and always broke the rubber anti vibe buffers! I got to the point where who ever was working I would know what parts to stock up on and boy I tell you I did not miss a thing!