Ms400 vs Ms461 vs Ms462 vs 500i?

[ace4059]

No doubt a ported 400 would pull the chain with that bar. It would be easier on the back because it’s lighter.
But the porting costs $400-$500 plus shipping it off. Then factor in the HO oiler for $75-100 and you would be in the price range of the 462.
I was under the impression that the OP was wanting to save a little money because he was looking at used and also the 461.
If the OP has the money to spend, then go ported.

 

[guym3]

Thanks for posting the great video. Slightly surprised at how slow the 462 was. Still I guess if you watch Joe's dyno mods comparison of 460/461/462 on youtube channel you can see that the 461 would be much better suited for this task.

I'd suggest the OP takes a look at the 461. I love mine, with great torque and responds well to simple things like MM and base gasket delete.

 

[MustangMike]

Be careful with recommending a base gasket delete on a 461, it does not work out well on all of them, ditto on 460s (usually works well on 044/440s), but always check your squish and on the 461 other clearances. IIRC I believe some of them had a problem with either piston clearance or the saddle with a base gasket delete.

Also, many 461s have soft spark plug threads, and they tend to run hot unless you remove the carb limiters and do a muffler mod. (It was the result of emissions compliance). They are also a bit heavier than a 460 as a result of the longer case required for the transfer feed in the front of the cylinder.

While most 461s have more torque (in stock form) than 460s, properly ported there is not much (if any) difference, and while it is more difficult to achieve, a 440/460 hybrid can also have incredible torque if ported properly. (The porting has to offset the smaller case capacity that tends to generate high RPMs but less torque).

Cylinder squish and timing #s on 460s were all over the place, but a few of them ran very well. The original "Magnum" 046s (that came from the factory with a DP muffler and 046-D jug) were known for generally being strong runners.

 

[MustangMike]

I just watched Joes great video on these 3 saws ported, and they are all remarkably close. When you factor in that the 462 is smaller and has a short stroke, it did remarkably well. I have 2 ported 462s and I love them, but they perform better when you operate them with a softer touch that keeps the RPMS high.

Conversely, I have a 440/460 Hybrid ported by Doc Al that I can really lean on, even with 28" full comp in hardwood. I run 20 and 24" bars on the 462s. The 462s are fast cutting saws, don't need to be tuned, and have the clean air filter technology that I appreciate.

 

[ace4059]

I don’t know anything about the older saws of the 044, 460,or 461 so I can’t comment there
But,
I’ll second what MustangMike has to say.
The 462 will stall out easily, just like the 400. It has to be ran at high rpm and let it “self feed” by not putting pressure on the saw and forcing it through the cut. Let the chain do the work. It actually cuts faster this way and any pressure bogs the saw down and makes it cut slower. It’s a fast saw when cut like this. With a 20”-25” bar, the 462 can out cut a 500i.

 

[guym3]

Sensible reply from Mustangmike about porting. Checking squish is always a good idea!
I find the 10% more torque and at 2000 rpm less makes the 461 a very different saw when buried with a long bar in hardwood. I certainly love mine.

 

[Courage]

Hey guys, just want to thank all of you for contributing to my chainsaw knowledge base, and helping me decide on which orphaned saw I'd be best off adopting.
Sorry for not responding to all of your posts! This thread really took of when I wasn't paying attention, and I didn't realize that it was 4 pages long!
Anyway, just wanted to update y'all.
I realized I had some financial goals that I really wanted to prioritize over a new "toy", since my MS260 does do the job, so i started looking at slightly older saws, to save some money. Since i dont use it professionally, i figured I could get by with a few less features of the new saws. I really wanted an MS462, so when I saw an 044 listed for $400, I decided i should through the guy an offer, since that is the 462's predecessor...
I purchased a 10mm wrist pin 044 today for $300. The guy said he had his dealer rebuild it about 10 years ago, as it had some problems with the jug? Seemed odd, but it had good compression, and seemed pretty clean all things considered. The chain break is slightly cracked, and it's time for a new bar and chain, but the airfilter is very clean, so I decided to give it a go.
Any favorite bar and chain combos for 044s? Thinking maybe a 25 or 28" light bar of some flavor, but open for ideas...
Can someone also please explain to me the difference between semi chisel and full chisel? Pros and cons of each, too please! Kinda leaning towards full comp to make the saw less likely to kick back, and also smoother to run, but idk, most of the guys around here swear by skip tooth.
Also, how do TsuMura light bars compare to Stihl light bars? I like my buddy's Stihl light bar, but the TsuMura is almost half the weight...

 

[sean donato]

044 isn't the 462 predecessor in any way other then it's an older saw then the 462.
Tsumura bars are good quality. I run several of them.

 

[MustangMike]

10mm 044s are VG saws, but I like mine with either 20 or 24" bar in hardwood. Softwood it pulls a 28" just fine.

The KS jug saws were some of the best runners.

Also, the "red lever" period was good.

 

[MustangMike]

Can someone also please explain to me the difference between semi chisel and full chisel? Pros and cons of each, too please!

Full chisel will generally cut much faster in clean wood. I always use it. In dirty wood, semi chisel will hold up longer.

I (personally) would rather just keep my chains sharp and cut faster.

Full chisel will have a sharper tooth in the corner, semi chisel has a more rounded cutter profile. The corner is not as square.

Full chisel can be easily converted to square file, semi chisel cannot be square filed.

 

[Courage]

10mm 044s are VG saws, but I like mine with either 20 or 24" bar in hardwood. Softwood it pulls a 28" just fine.

The KS jug saws were some of the best runners.

Also, the "red lever" period was good.

Ok, right on! What does the KS jug mean?
This one isn't a red lever, unless the lever was replaced...

Full chisel will generally cut much faster in clean wood. I always use it. In dirty wood, semi chisel will hold up longer.

I (personally) would rather just keep my chains sharp and cut faster.

Full chisel will have a sharper tooth in the corner, semi chisel has a more rounded cutter profile. The corner is not as square.

Full chisel can be easily converted to square file, semi chisel cannot be square filed.

Gotcha, that makes sense about full chisel. Do any chains come square filed?

 

[Courage]

044 isn't the 462 predecessor in any way other then it's an older saw then the 462.
Tsumura bars are good quality. I run several of them.

I'm confused, didn't the line up go 044, MS440, MS441, and then MS462?

 

[guym3]

My ported red lever 12mm 044 is happiest with a 25inch bar in hardwood. It's well balanced and one of the saws I reach for the most frequently. The 461 is a much heavier more cumbersome beast but if I'm running 30inches then I reach for that.
Don't forget the 046 460 461 then 462 in the line up!

 

[MustangMike]

I'm confused, didn't the line up go 044, MS440, MS441, and then MS462?

Yes, you are exactly right, these are all 70 cc Stihl saws. The 460 and 461 are 77 cc saws and are generally heavier. (Even though the 462 seemed to replace the 461). Why they did not call it a 442 I do not know, except maybe for marketing purposes. 461s were more highly regarded than 441s.

Similarly, Stihl briefly produced Magnum versions of both the 046 and 066 that had dual port muffler covers and made more power. The EPA soon made them stop producing these saws, but Stihl realized that the "Magnum" sticker sold saws, so they started putting them on saws there were not any different than the base model.

There were a lot of jokes about increasing HP by adding a Magnum sticker.

The 10 mm 044s and 462s are the lightest of the bunch.

KS is Kansas City - one of the producers of jugs for the 044 Stihl saws. They were generally well regarded, but there were various versions identified by the # of + marks on the cylinder. The jugs produced during the "red lever" period were generally improved over the originals, but before emissions regulations made them go the other way. (This refers to the red control lever)

Early 10 mm 044s had black levers, and very early ones used smaller bolts to attach the recoil. The later 044 (including most 12 mm) went back to black lever. (10 + 12mm refer to the diameter of the piston wrist pin.)

Mahle and Stihl (often not labeled) also produced jugs. I believe some of the highest regarded jugs on the 046/460s were Mahle, including the D-jugs which were used on the original Magnum saws. (Ironically, all 044 and MS-440s are D-jugs). This refers to the shape of the combustion chambers. D-jug have a flat squish area (not just around the border).

 

[fields_mj]

I'm confused, didn't the line up go 044, MS440, MS441, and then MS462?

I have always been under the impression that the 044/440/441 were decedents of the 041, and that the 046 was a different platform all together. I'm not sure where I got this idea from, but it's what has always been in my head (which often means its not right).

As far as full chisel, semi chisel, and square file, MustangMike summed it up pretty well. The leading edge of the full chisel comes to a very sharp point where as semi-chisel and safety chain have a rounded corner that doesn't grab as much. I find that when running an 18" bar on my 026, I don't see a lot of difference between the full chisel and semi chisel chains, but when I run those same bars and chains on my 036, the full chisel chain cuts a lot faster. I presume that's because the bigger saw has the extra HP and TQ to take advantage of the more aggressive tooth profile without loosing much RPM where as the smaller saw looses a little more RPM which negates the benefit of the more aggressive cutter. Either way, the radius on a safety chain is so large that I think they suck really bad. As far as square grind, yes you can buy chain that has a square grind. The 3/8 semi-skip chain I bought for my 42" bar came with a square grind on it. I don't square grind, so at the first sharpening I had to take the time to reprofile all the cutters to match my round file.

Since you mentioned full comp, I'm going to assume that you know that is in reference to how many drive links there are between each cutter. If not, full comp is short for full complement meaning that it has as many cutters as will fit on that chain (1 cutter mounted to every other drive link so a chain with 74 DLs would have 36 cutters, 18 on each side). Full skip is "missing" half of its cutters meaning (I think) there is 1 cutter mounted on every 4th DL (84DL would have 21 cutters with 10 on one side and 11 on the other). Semi-skip is in between with a cutter mounted on every 3rd DL.

 

[guym3]

Thanks Mike for sharing your indepth knowledge of 044's etc. Really good stuff to learn.
I really like the D shaped combustion chambers, like on the 038 magnum (yes a real magnum!)

 

[MustangMike]

Yes, full comp has a cutter (alternating) at each location. Full skip has spaces, and a left cutter ... spaces ... then a right cutter. They are not paired.

Semi skip has a left and right cutter at each location (like full comp), but space in between them.

Skip chain is good for using a longer bar on smaller saws, or when cutting wood (mostly softwoods) that "gum up" full comp (often sappy wood). Cottonwood is an example of a hardwood that will also do this.

 

[Courage]

My ported red lever 12mm 044 is happiest with a 25inch bar in hardwood. It's well balanced and one of the saws I reach for the most frequently. The 461 is a much heavier more cumbersome beast but if I'm running 30inches then I reach for that.
Don't forget the 046 460 461 then 462 in the line up!

If you were only cutting softer woods, except for a one off cut here and there, what bar length do you think would complement the saw best?

Yes, you are exactly right, these are all 70 cc Stihl saws. The 460 and 461 are 77 cc saws and are generally heavier. (Even though the 462 seemed to replace the 461). Why they did not call it a 442 I do not know, except maybe for marketing purposes. 461s were more highly regarded than 441s.

Similarly, Stihl briefly produced Magnum versions of both the 046 and 066 that had dual port muffler covers and made more power. The EPA soon made them stop producing these saws, but Stihl realized that the "Magnum" sticker sold saws, so they started putting them on saws there were not any different than the base model.

There were a lot of jokes about increasing HP by adding a Magnum sticker.

The 10 mm 044s and 462s are the lightest of the bunch.

KS is Kansas City - one of the producers of jugs for the 044 Stihl saws. They were generally well regarded, but there were various versions identified by the # of + marks on the cylinder. The jugs produced during the "red lever" period were generally improved over the originals, but before emissions regulations made them go the other way. (This refers to the red control lever)

Early 10 mm 044s had black levers, and very early ones used smaller bolts to attach the recoil. The later 044 (including most 12 mm) went back to black lever. (10 + 12mm refer to the diameter of the piston wrist pin.)

Mahle and Stihl (often not labeled) also produced jugs. I believe some of the highest regarded jugs on the 046/460s were Mahle, including the D-jugs which were used on the original Magnum saws. (Ironically, all 044 and MS-440s are D-jugs). This refers to the shape of the combustion chambers. D-jug have a flat squish area (not just around the border).

Wow! You have a wealth of info on 044s! Thanks for sharing! So where approximately where in the timeline would my new 044 fit? The first 3 digits in the serial number are 123, if I remember correctly, but I could get you the whole serial number in the morning if that would be helpful.

I have always been under the impression that the 044/440/441 were decedents of the 041, and that the 046 was a different platform all together. I'm not sure where I got this idea from, but it's what has always been in my head (which often means its not right).

As far as full chisel, semi chisel, and square file, MustangMike summed it up pretty well. The leading edge of the full chisel comes to a very sharp point where as semi-chisel and safety chain have a rounded corner that doesn't grab as much. I find that when running an 18" bar on my 026, I don't see a lot of difference between the full chisel and semi chisel chains, but when I run those same bars and chains on my 036, the full chisel chain cuts a lot faster. I presume that's because the bigger saw has the extra HP and TQ to take advantage of the more aggressive tooth profile without loosing much RPM where as the smaller saw looses a little more RPM which negates the benefit of the more aggressive cutter. Either way, the radius on a safety chain is so large that I think they suck really bad. As far as square grind, yes you can buy chain that has a square grind. The 3/8 semi-skip chain I bought for my 42" bar came with a square grind on it. I don't square grind, so at the first sharpening I had to take the time to reprofile all the cutters to match my round file.

Since you mentioned full comp, I'm going to assume that you know that is in reference to how many drive links there are between each cutter. If not, full comp is short for full complement meaning that it has as many cutters as will fit on that chain (1 cutter mounted to every other drive link so a chain with 74 DLs would have 36 cutters, 18 on each side). Full skip is "missing" half of its cutters meaning (I think) there is 1 cutter mounted on every 4th DL (84DL would have 21 cutters with 10 on one side and 11 on the other). Semi-skip is in between with a cutter mounted on every 3rd DL.

Thanks for the detailed chain explanation! Really appreciate it! Sounds like full chisel is the way to go then. I mostly cut white and red fir, black pine, and Tamarack. Would you recommend full comp or skip for those woods with an 044, either 25 or 28" bar, still not sire which I'll go with...
You said you prefer round filing, could you also tell me the pros and cons or square vs round? Sorry for all the questions! Just trying to learn...

Thanks Mike for sharing your indepth knowledge of 044's etc. Really good stuff to learn.
I really like the D shaped combustion chambers, like on the 038 magnum (yes a real magnum!)

No kidding! I can loose hours just soaking up info from this forum!

Yes, full comp has a cutter (alternating) at each location. Full skip has spaces, and a left cutter ... spaces ... then a right cutter. They are not paired.

Semi skip has a left and right cutter at each location (like full comp), but space in between them.

Skip chain is good for using a longer bar on smaller saws, or when cutting wood (mostly softwoods) that "gum up" full comp (often sappy wood). Cottonwood is an example of a hardwood that will also do this.

Do the woods I mentioned above tend to gum up? Semi skip sounds interesting... seems like it could make a good balance.

Still debating 25" vs 28" bar... at what length does the 10mm wrist pin start to become an issue? I don't want to push it. From doing a little digging, it looks like the 10mm 044s actually weighed very close to what the ms400s weigh. My buddy's 400 wears a lightweight 25, and that's a super handy combo, so I'm temted by that. At the same time, if a 28 won't slow it down much, than how much more would it actually weigh? I'll have my MS260 with a 20" with me anyway most of the time, so maybe 28 is the way to go? Idk, 25" bars actually seem substantially cheaper on ebay, not sure if there's a better spot to buy them...
Sorry for the late night ramble! Just super excited about my new to me saw, and want to get it ready to hit the woods!

 

[fields_mj]

If you were only cutting softer woods, except for a one off cut here and there, what bar length do you think would complement the saw best?

Thanks for the detailed chain explanation! Really appreciate it! Sounds like full chisel is the way to go then. I mostly cut white and red fir, black pine, and Tamarack. Would you recommend full comp or skip for those woods with an 044, either 25 or 28" bar, still not sire which I'll go with...
You said you prefer round filing, could you also tell me the pros and cons or square vs round? Sorry for all the questions! Just trying to learn...

Do the woods I mentioned above tend to gum up? Semi skip sounds interesting... seems like it could make a good balance.

Still debating 25" vs 28" bar... at what length does the 10mm wrist pin start to become an issue? I don't want to push it. From doing a little digging, it looks like the 10mm 044s actually weighed very close to what the ms400s weigh. My buddy's 400 wears a lightweight 25, and that's a super handy combo, so I'm temted by that. At the same time, if a 28 won't slow it down much, than how much more would it actually weigh? I'll have my MS260 with a 20" with me anyway most of the time, so maybe 28 is the way to go? Idk, 25" bars actually seem substantially cheaper on ebay, not sure if there's a better spot to buy them...
Sorry for the late night ramble! Just super excited about my new to me saw, and want to get it ready to hit the woods!

Square file is going to cut faster, but I've never learned how to do it by hand. Plus, IF you choose to use some kind of jig to square file your chain, they are rather expensive IMHO. That's why I use a round file.

Bar length should be dictated by the size of the wood you're cutting. About 2" of your bar length can't reach the wood (more if you're using bigger felling dawgs) so I 28" bar can only reach about 26" into a log. My recommendation is that you want your bar to reach all the way through the cut about 75% of the time. If most of what you are cutting is under 23", then the 25" bar would be great. If most of what you're cutting is over 23", I'd go with the 28" bar.

IMHO, there's no reason to ever have a skip chain on a 25" bar. In your case, I don't think you should need one on a 28" bar either. If you do, then semi-skip should be sufficient. If you decide that a skip chain works better for you on a 28" bar, I'd recommend dropping down to the 25" bar. I'd rather give up the extra bar length (and weight) than reduce the number of cutters in the wood.

 

[MustangMike]

FYI, a 20" bar is 20", they renamed the 24" bar 25" bar, it is not 25", they did it so you would not realize the 28" bar is really only 27".

You can check the # of links on the various chains, or measure with a tape, and you will see I am correct.