Ms400 vs Ms461 vs Ms462 vs 500i?

[MustangMike]

I agree it depends on the size wood you usually cut (bar length). A shorter bar is MUCH easier to handle and be safe with. Also, over cutting in a log pile is a PITA. Semi Chisel is a good option.

If the log is just occasionally slightly longer than your bar, reach over the top and cut the backside a bit, then just buck as normal.

Square file files are a lot more expensive and harder to find and you have to learn how to do it (you file from outside in, not inside out like w/round). But square file will cut a bit faster and is better for both ripping and milling (w/o changing the angles) so I square file all my chains. It is a learning process, but once you get used to it, it goes just as fast as round filing.

This, and other items on their site are very helpful. Always keep the corner of the file in the corner of the tooth, and for all around go 3 - 45 degree angles (tilt, down, back). This will provide a durable edge that cuts well. Faster angles will dull more quickly.

https://www.madsens1.com/how-to-sharpen-square-chisel-chain-with

I much prefer the 6-sided rectangular files to the triangle shaped ones. They also are better for taking down your rakers.

 

[MustangMike]

So where approximately where in the timeline would my new 044 fit? The first 3 digits in the serial number are 123

The first # (1) is the location of manufacture (1-Germany).

Your saw is "early". If it was registered, a dealer could tell you when it was sold. You likely have the smaller bolts holding the recoil.

The SN on my red-lever saw purchased new in Dec 92 is 126234303. I believe all 044s were manufactured in Germany.

IIRC correctly, SNs soon after mine were 12mm 044s.

Remember, these saws were made when we were still using leaded gasoline, (lead was a lubricant) so use good oil at a good ratio and you should be fine. I use Amsoil Saber at 40:1. It burns clean and gives good protection. Stihl oil has less viscosity and will often produce carbon if used at richer than 50:1.

 

[Courage]

Square file is going to cut faster, but I've never learned how to do it by hand. Plus, IF you choose to use some kind of jig to square file your chain, they are rather expensive IMHO. That's why I use a round file.

Bar length should be dictated by the size of the wood you're cutting. About 2" of your bar length can't reach the wood (more if you're using bigger felling dawgs) so I 28" bar can only reach about 26" into a log. My recommendation is that you want your bar to reach all the way through the cut about 75% of the time. If most of what you are cutting is under 23", then the 25" bar would be great. If most of what you're cutting is over 23", I'd go with the 28" bar.

IMHO, there's no reason to ever have a skip chain on a 25" bar. In your case, I don't think you should need one on a 28" bar either. If you do, then semi-skip should be sufficient. If you decide that a skip chain works better for you on a 28" bar, I'd recommend dropping down to the 25" bar. I'd rather give up the extra bar length (and weight) than reduce the number of cutters in the wood.

Gotcha makes sense about the square filing.
Most of what I cut a 20 would even be fine for, but, I've been running into some bigger would lately, so idk. I might go 25 to start with, and then get a 28 when I get a 60cc saw, and put the 25 on the 60cc. Guess I should figure out if the next saw will be bigger or smaller than my 044.

I agree it depends on the size wood you usually cut (bar length). A shorter bar is MUCH easier to handle and be safe with. Also, over cutting in a log pile is a PITA. Semi Chisel is a good option.

If the log is just occasionally slightly longer than your bar, reach over the top and cut the backside a bit, then just buck as normal.

Square file files are a lot more expensive and harder to find and you have to learn how to do it (you file from outside in, not inside out like w/round). But square file will cut a bit faster and is better for both ripping and milling (w/o changing the angles) so I square file all my chains. It is a learning process, but once you get used to it, it goes just as fast as round filing.

This, and other items on their site are very helpful. Always keep the corner of the file in the corner of the tooth, and for all around go 3 - 45 degree angles (tilt, down, back). This will provide a durable edge that cuts well. Faster angles will dull more quickly.

https://www.madsens1.com/how-to-sharpen-square-chisel-chain-with

I much prefer the 6-sided rectangular files to the triangle shaped ones. They also are better for taking down your rakers.

Thanks for explaining about the chain differences and filing! I really appreciate it! Not sure if I'll stick with round, or go to square. I've always filed round, but my dad's always filed square...

The first # (1) is the location of manufacture (1-Germany).

Your saw is "early". If it was registered, a dealer could tell you when it was sold. You likely have the smaller bolts holding the recoil.

The SN on my red-lever saw purchased new in Dec 92 is 126234303. I believe all 044s were manufactured in Germany.

IIRC correctly, SNs soon after mine were 12mm 044s.

Remember, these saws were made when we were still using leaded gasoline, (lead was a lubricant) so use good oil at a good ratio and you should be fine. I use Amsoil Saber at 40:1. It burns clean and gives good protection. Stihl oil has less viscosity and will often produce carbon if used at richer than 50:1.

Gotcha. Are the smaller recoil bolts a problem typically? Thanks for the oil recommendation! Sounds like a good idea!

 

[MustangMike]

The smaller bolts are not a problem, just recoils are not interchangeable as a result. I've heard of folks drilling and re-taping the holes.

I meant to say semi-skip, not semi chisel.

If your Dad does square file, I would learn it from him. I like to put the bar in a vice, have a shortened paint stirrer in one hand (that I press against the back of the tooth to keep it still) and the square file in my other hand. I do one side, then switch hands and reverse the direction of the bar in the vice and do the other side.

Once you get used to it, it will go just as fast as round file, and the file will fit into the tooth like a glove.

I like the versatility of square file chain, good for crosscut, ripping and milling.

 

[Courage]

The smaller bolts are not a problem, just recoils are not interchangeable as a result. I've heard of folks drilling and re-taping the holes.

I meant to say semi-skip, not semi chisel.

If your Dad does square file, I would learn it from him. I like to put the bar in a vice, have a shortened paint stirrer in one hand (that I press against the back of the tooth to keep it still) and the square file in my other hand. I do one side, then switch hands and reverse the direction of the bar in the vice and do the other side.

Once you get used to it, it will go just as fast as round file, and the file will fit into the tooth like a glove.

I like the versatility of square file chain, good for crosscut, ripping and milling.

Gotcha that all makes sense. Thanks so much for your help! Really appreciate it!
I got to buck up about a half cord of 15" black pine this evening. I switched the b&c from my MS260 which is currently under the weather onto it for until I get it its own b&c. That 044 rips and snorts in comparison to my 260! Makes wood cutting feel like a joke with how fast it is! With how natural and light it felt with the 20 from my 260, I'm thinking I'll go 25". It's not like I run into HUGE wood all that often, and from running my dad's 046 with a 28" recently, I don't think the longer bar benefits of not being bent over as much, alleviates the added strain of the extra weight hanging off the saw, but idk.

 

[MustangMike]

I purchased my 044 new in December 1992. The place (an equipment rental) did not want to sell it to me, as I was not a pro. I was heating my house with wood at the time and had just purchased another load of logs. (aprox 6-7 cord). The 044 was on sale (which never happens with Stihl pro saws) because the place was discontinuing handling Stihl saws. I was running a Homelite 330 at the time.

The guy responded to me that he did not want to sell me the saw "because it cut too fast". I exclaimed "That is exactly what I need". He reluctantly sold it to me. The saw was not cheap, even marked down, but my brother and I were so impressed with it that we have only purchased Stihl saws since then. It was also a lot more trouble free than the Homelite, which had persistent starter recoil problems.

My 044 runs like it is ported, but no port work has been done to the cylinder. I did a base gasket delete, dual port muffler, timing advance and low restriction "winter" filter. It was my only saw for 18 years and still impresses me when I use it. I've rebuilt the carb once and had to replace the springs under both the Hi and Low screws (they don't come with the tune up kits) in order to get the saw to "keep" its tune.

It took decades for anyone to come out with a saw as light and strong as a 044, but Stihl finally did it with the 462. I have two of them, both ported, one with 20", one with 24". They usually get the call as you don't have to worry about changing the tune if you change elevations, and air filter cleaning is infrequent. That said, I will keep my 044 till I can't pull the trigger anymore.

 

[Wyoming_Outback]

So I can't speak to the 461, but would't consider it, given the availability of new 400's, 462's, and 500's out there. Personally, I own a 400 and 500, and run my dad's 462, as well. Both the carbed saws are M-Tronic. I would say if you want a saw with a 28" bar that can run full comp, and you're getting into wood over 24" often enough, the 500 is worth it. Slightly heavier than a 462, but worth it. Runs a lot faster and more power. I do about 10-30 cords of wood a year, depending on how much people want to buy, plus the 7 cords/year for my parents. Have 1 full season on the 500, and the fall on my 400 (so maybe another 10-15 cords). 400 is great for what it is, which is smaller than the 462, and larger than the 362, but I am not personally picking it up to go fell, limb, and buck a tree, unless it's pretty small. If you have the funds, a 462/500 is an amazing two saw plan, if not, your 260 and a 500 would be my take on the situation. While I love the 462, I love my dad's and my own 044's more for some reason. Maybe nostalgia, maybe I'm a couple screws loose of a basket case.

 

[Lionsfan]

This would be my choice if I had to settle on one bar and chain combo for that 044. You can find a Tsumara lightweight 25" for $100. Make sure you buy a .050 gauge, not a .063.
You can buy a 3 pack of C83, 84 dl, full chisel 3/8 Husqvarna chains for $62.14 from Amazon. Get yourself a dozen good 7/32 files, I like Husqvarna's intensive cut.
Get a yourself a progressive raker gauge and a couple good raker files. Leave the skip-tooth chains and square filing for guys who like to tinker with things.

 

[Courage]

I purchased my 044 new in December 1992. The place (an equipment rental) did not want to sell it to me, as I was not a pro. I was heating my house with wood at the time and had just purchased another load of logs. (aprox 6-7 cord). The 044 was on sale (which never happens with Stihl pro saws) because the place was discontinuing handling Stihl saws. I was running a Homelite 330 at the time.

The guy responded to me that he did not want to sell me the saw "because it cut too fast". I exclaimed "That is exactly what I need". He reluctantly sold it to me. The saw was not cheap, even marked down, but my brother and I were so impressed with it that we have only purchased Stihl saws since then. It was also a lot more trouble free than the Homelite, which had persistent starter recoil problems.

My 044 runs like it is ported, but no port work has been done to the cylinder. I did a base gasket delete, dual port muffler, timing advance and low restriction "winter" filter. It was my only saw for 18 years and still impresses me when I use it. I've rebuilt the carb once and had to replace the springs under both the Hi and Low screws (they don't come with the tune up kits) in order to get the saw to "keep" its tune.

It took decades for anyone to come out with a saw as light and strong as a 044, but Stihl finally did it with the 462. I have two of them, both ported, one with 20", one with 24". They usually get the call as you don't have to worry about changing the tune if you change elevations, and air filter cleaning is infrequent. That said, I will keep my 044 till I can't pull the trigger anymore.

Thanks for sharing! Could you tell me about a base gasket delete? I keep hearing about it, but don't understand it... I ran across a MS461 for $350. Hoping I didn't jump prematurely with buying my 044, and should have waited and gotten that one instead?

So I can't speak to the 461, but would't consider it, given the availability of new 400's, 462's, and 500's out there. Personally, I own a 400 and 500, and run my dad's 462, as well. Both the carbed saws are M-Tronic. I would say if you want a saw with a 28" bar that can run full comp, and you're getting into wood over 24" often enough, the 500 is worth it. Slightly heavier than a 462, but worth it. Runs a lot faster and more power. I do about 10-30 cords of wood a year, depending on how much people want to buy, plus the 7 cords/year for my parents. Have 1 full season on the 500, and the fall on my 400 (so maybe another 10-15 cords). 400 is great for what it is, which is smaller than the 462, and larger than the 362, but I am not personally picking it up to go fell, limb, and buck a tree, unless it's pretty small. If you have the funds, a 462/500 is an amazing two saw plan, if not, your 260 and a 500 would be my take on the situation. While I love the 462, I love my dad's and my own 044's more for some reason. Maybe nostalgia, maybe I'm a couple screws loose of a basket case.

Well, that's good that you like the 044! Especially since I just picked one of those up! Gives me some confidence in my purchase

This would be my choice if I had to settle on one bar and chain combo for that 044. You can find a Tsumara lightweight 25" for $100. Make sure you buy a .050 gauge, not a .063.
You can buy a 3 pack of C83, 84 dl, full chisel 3/8 Husqvarna chains for $62.14 from Amazon. Get yourself a dozen good 7/32 files, I like Husqvarna's intensive cut.
Get a yourself a progressive raker gauge and a couple good raker files. Leave the skip-tooth chains and square filing for guys who like to tinker with things.

View attachment 1238947

Sounds like a good combo! Thanks for posting it up!

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

I really enjoyed using the 500i. It’s a brilliant, powerful, and lightweight saw. However, be aware that some parts can be incredibly expensive to replace. For example, the fuel pump on non-injection saws is just a diaphragm, but on the 500i, it requires a full pump replacement. The injector costs over $600, and considering how high it revs and how lightweight it’s built, I’m not sure it will last as long as other saws. While it’s fantastic in regards of acceleration, lightness, and power, I’m not sure durability is up there with other saws.

 

[sawmill sam]

I really enjoyed using the 500i. It’s a brilliant, powerful, and lightweight saw. However, be aware that some parts can be incredibly expensive to replace. For example, the fuel pump on non-injection saws is just a diaphragm, but on the 500i, it requires a full pump replacement. The injector costs over $600, and considering how high it revs and how lightweight it’s built, I’m not sure it will last as long as other saws. While it’s fantastic in regards of acceleration, lightness, and power, I’m not sure durability is up there with other saws.

I wonder how many fuel pumps have been replaced since the 500i was introduced.
Strictly a pro level saw for fallers and arborists, that as a milling hobbyist and firewood cutter is just not practical. About the same cost as a 661, I chose that model instead and glad I did.

 

[MustangMike]

Could you tell me about a base gasket delete?

You have to pull your spark plug and measure your squish (distance from piston to top of cylinder around the perimeter).

Ideal squish is .020 (things expand when hot). If you squish is .038 or more, you may want to remove the base gasket.

If you do, you will have to glue your cylinder down and make sure all surfaces are very clean (use brake cleaner).

It drops the cylinder about .018. That lowers your intake opening to give you more fuel and lowers the top of the exhaust port to give you an "effective" longer stroke. Of course, the stroke does not actually change, but the distance of your power stroke is increased (before the exhaust opens).

I would do the other mods first (muffler, timing and low restriction intake). They can make a noticeable difference.

If you search, there are videos on all this stuff.

 

[MustangMike]

If you do a timing advance, I never take more than .020 off the key (about 6* increase in advance timing).

Some recommend more, but usually there is little to no benefit from more, and you risk piston knock, etc., so to me it is just not worth it. Also, timing advance makes your saw harder to start, and 044s did not have compression relief!

Ditto your muffler mods. Depending on your porting (and other factors), while small increases in openings often provide a noticeable improvement, too much can lead to a loss of torque and an unsteady idle. For 044/440 and 046/460 saws, if you are modifying a stock muffler, an easy mod is to remove the cover and drill two 1/4" holes over one another high on the right side near the muffler seam.

IMO, the baffle for 046/460s is not so restrictive, so I do not remove them. For 066/660s, for stock or mildly ported saws, I drill a 1/2" hole in the back of the baffle. Fully ported saws will often run stronger with the baffle completely removed. I have found that fully removing the baffle on saws that are not aggressively ported is detrimental to their performance. They will piss rev just fine, and have instant response and sound awesome, but when you put them into the wood they fall on their face. I have experienced this on more than one saw. Conversely, when I tried to quite a very noisy fully ported saw, it would not run strong with the modified baffle.

The two small holes will usually improve performance (make sure carb limiters are removed and make the Hi a bit [1/4 turn] richer), don't need a screen and will not increase noise too much. Make sure the holes are high enough, so the exhaust is above the case.

Picture the saw as "pulsating" the exhaust, it is not a steady flow, and 2 cycle engines need some back pressure to prevent the air/fuel mix from escaping before it is burned. If your muffler mod sucks the air/fuel mix out of the cylinder before ignition, you will lose power. It may take some experimenting to get everything in sync.

That is why piped saws have chambers, and those chambers are the key to good performance.

If you don't have a dyno (or access to one) timed cuts is your next best option.

Always remember that a sharp chain makes a saw look good!

 

[Courage]

I really enjoyed using the 500i. It’s a brilliant, powerful, and lightweight saw. However, be aware that some parts can be incredibly expensive to replace. For example, the fuel pump on non-injection saws is just a diaphragm, but on the 500i, it requires a full pump replacement. The injector costs over $600, and considering how high it revs and how lightweight it’s built, I’m not sure it will last as long as other saws. While it’s fantastic in regards of acceleration, lightness, and power, I’m not sure durability is up there with other saws.

The 500i's longevity, durability, and ease of repair is what really what scared me away from it. Wow! $600 is crazy imho! Tbh though, I'm also not used to how it doesn't seem to have the lower rpm tq that I'm used to with my dad's 046, and now even my 044.

I wonder how many fuel pumps have been replaced since the 500i was introduced.
Strictly a pro level saw for fallers and arborists, that as a milling hobbyist and firewood cutter is just not practical. About the same cost as a 661, I chose that model instead and glad I did.

I'm curious to see how my buddy's 500i turns out longevity wise. Maybe they'll hold up, but I find it hard to believe that they'll still be going strong in 30 years like the 0 series saws and older huskys.

You have to pull your spark plug and measure your squish (distance from piston to top of cylinder around the perimeter).

Ideal squish is .020 (things expand when hot). If you squish is .038 or more, you may want to remove the base gasket.

If you do, you will have to glue your cylinder down and make sure all surfaces are very clean (use brake cleaner).

It drops the cylinder about .018. That lowers your intake opening to give you more fuel and lowers the top of the exhaust port to give you an "effective" longer stroke. Of course, the stroke does not actually change, but the distance of your power stroke is increased (before the exhaust opens).

I would do the other mods first (muffler, timing and low restriction intake). They can make a noticeable difference.

If you search, there are videos on all this stuff.

Wow! That's for the great explanation! Will doing those mods shorten the life of my 044 appreciably? I love the power it currently has, but ngl, I'd love to see how close I could get it to my buddy's 500i. I know it'll never keep up completely, but I'd just like to see how close I could get it, without porting it...

If you do a timing advance, I never take more than .020 off the key (about 6* increase in advance timing).

Some recommend more, but usually there is little to no benefit from more, and you risk piston knock, etc., so to me it is just not worth it. Also, timing advance makes your saw harder to start, and 044s did not have compression relief!

Ditto your muffler mods. Depending on your porting (and other factors), while small increases in openings often provide a noticeable improvement, too much can lead to a loss of torque and an unsteady idle. For 044/440 and 046/460 saws, if you are modifying a stock muffler, an easy mod is to remove the cover and drill two 1/4" holes over one another high on the right side near the muffler seam.

IMO, the baffle for 046/460s is not so restrictive, so I do not remove them. For 066/660s, for stock or mildly ported saws, I drill a 1/2" hole in the back of the baffle. Fully ported saws will often run stronger with the baffle completely removed. I have found that fully removing the baffle on saws that are not aggressively ported is detrimental to their performance. They will piss rev just fine, and have instant response and sound awesome, but when you put them into the wood they fall on their face. I have experienced this on more than one saw. Conversely, when I tried to quite a very noisy fully ported saw, it would not run strong with the modified baffle.

The two small holes will usually improve performance (make sure carb limiters are removed and make the Hi a bit [1/4 turn] richer), don't need a screen and will not increase noise too much. Make sure the holes are high enough, so the exhaust is above the case.

Picture the saw as "pulsating" the exhaust, it is not a steady flow, and 2 cycle engines need some back pressure to prevent the air/fuel mix from escaping before it is burned. If your muffler mod sucks the air/fuel mix out of the cylinder before ignition, you will lose power. It may take some experimenting to get everything in sync.

That is why piped saws have chambers, and those chambers are the key to good performance.

If you don't have a dyno (or access to one) timed cuts is your next best option.

Always remember that a sharp chain makes a saw look good!

That makes complete sense! I definitely so plan on muffler modding it, but this is the first I've heard about adjusting the timing on saws, so that part is new to me...
With your veiw on backpressure, would I be correct in guessing that through-shot and bark box style mufflers aren't a good idea?

 

[StihlsawuserMS361]

The main reason I bought my 500I is a "why not" scenario. I'm not getting any younger. Do I expect to have my 500 last as long as my 361 has? No way, I'll be pushing a 100 years old by then. So, I took a chance on the 500. Latest and greatest toy so to speak. Adding the "greenies", who know how much longer we'll be able to burn firewood? In owning 25 acres of mostly dying ash trees, what would I do with them?
So I justified the expense, if it craps out, I'll get a 462

 

[MustangMike]

Wow! That's for the great explanation! Will doing those mods shorten the life of my 044 appreciably? I love the power it currently has, but ngl, I'd love to see how close I could get it to my buddy's 500i. I know it'll never keep up completely, but I'd just like to see how close I could get it, without porting it...

Most of the mods may increase the life of your saw. Heat is the big "grim reaper" of saws, the EPA forced it, and opening the muffler and making the carb run richer (opening the Hi screw) will give you more power and prolong the life of your saw. This allows the saw to produce peak HP at a higher RPM, hence the benefit of a timing advance.

Note: The EPA criteria is nothing short of "STUPID". They only measure the emissions per minute compared to the displacement of the saw. This means they may give up 20% performance for a 5% reduction in emissions, and you will produce more emissions to cut your log. I liken it to when the EPA destroyed car engine performance and efficiency during the 70s. It was a crappy time to buy a car!

That makes complete sense! I definitely so plan on muffler modding it, but this is the first I've heard about adjusting the timing on saws, so that part is new to me...
With your veiw on backpressure, would I be correct in guessing that through-shot and bark box style mufflers aren't a good idea?

You are correct. They produce a LOT of extra noise and likely waste unburned fuel. I spoke at length with a VG saw builder about the location of the exhaust ports, and he likes to keep them as close to the saw as possible (so that some back pressure remains), often just enlarging the original exit. My little two 1/4" hole trick works well and is easy enough for anyone to do. I have received positive comments from folks who have done it, and I have done it for professional tree guys and professional firewood guys and received positive feedback from them.

My 10mm 044 still has the original piston and cylinder. When I did the base gasket delete, I have purchased a new OEM piston for it, but when I compared it to the piston it had, I left the factory original one in it. The original piston has stabilizers and is slightly taller than the replacement. Since the saw ran so well, I did not want to take a chance on reducing performance by changing the piston, so I still am using my original rings. The saw runs great!

I once embarrassed a tree pro who was bragging about how strong his 066 ran. I had a 28" bar on the 044 and we were cutting soft White Pine. The pro got very quiet when my 044 went through the rounds noticeably faster than his 066. Truth of the matter is a lot of it was likely the chain. I had sharp square file, he had questionable round, but he had been doing a lot of bragging just the same, and it all came to a stop. My 044 has also outperformed numerous unported 046 and 460s and bested all the unported 70 cc Huskys at a chainsaw GTG.

Timing advance: There are videos on it. Basically, what sets the timing is the key in the crank/flywheel. The bottom of the key is in the crank slot. Put the key in a vice, file .020 off the side of the top half. Twist the flywheel against the cut and tighten the nut. Make sure both the crank and inside of the flywheel are very clean, and the friction will hold it in place (the key does not hold it in place, it is just a guide). If you don't tighten it enough, you will shear the key. I tighten it by fell, just enough so I don't strip the nut!