new truck/crane question - opinions?

[nickblaze466]

I am somewhat new to the tree service/firewood industry as an owner.

i've been getting a lot more work, purchased a bobcat to move some logs and some of the bigger ones need more power, and the bobcat will only reach so high.

anyways, i bought a 1983 C65 chevy diesel dump flatbed with a knuckle boom loader mounted on it. no grapple, just loader like normal. figured i'd run some chain and/or straps and pick 'em up onto the truck. so i'm over at my friends house, run this past his old man and he said don't buy it, get out of it, without a grapple its worthless. and don't get a diesel, again, worthless because gas is so expensive for them.

my feeling was yes, diesel is more money but the motors should in theory last longer, and that older style diesel is pretty well bulletproof. should also have some more torque. and the loader is in great shape, don't care if i need to put a set of tongs on it and spin it when its up, its better than loading by hand after i cut a big one up into pieces.

so my question is what do you guys think? are regular non-grapple loaders not worth the investment or is he just particular in his opinion? what about the truck, feelings there?

and finally, i've been looking around for a good set of tongs. do i want to use tongs, or do i want to use chain? if i want to use tongs, where is a good spot to find some big ones, no smaller than 25'' for less than an arm and a leg?

 

[Bushler]

Those early 80's diesel chevs were a weak sister engine if I remember right. I'd check with a mechanic about that.

As for the grapple/tong issue, are you planning to heal the logs or pick up short logs only by the middle? With either, tongs or chain you're going to be getting on and off the machine a bunch.

Is there any hyd. lines, valves etc. on the rig so you can convert it to grapples?

 

[nickblaze466]

i called my mechanic about the diesel issue. he said he has one for his farm truck with over 600k on the clock and it runs like its brand new. apparently there was a potential weak spot in the crank journals the first year of production that was changed with an increased nickel content or somethin like that for the second year of production, which is what mine is. as with anything used its a chance...but oh well. this diesel in mine has 91k on it original.

the loader is all hydraulic and the control banks are on both sides of the truck on the ground, so i'd be on the ground anyways, just have to walk over to the log and up onto the truck when its on. big benefit is the price, can't find anything decent with a grapple in my price range.

 

[Bushler]

Sounds like it would work. I assume you've calculated the lift capacity of the hoist and are sure it will lift logs?

I could probably find you a set of tongs around here, (Oregon), but shipping would be a mother to Ohio.

With chains you'd still have to climb up on the load to free the chains. Probably with some practice you could learn to shake the tongs from the ground, saving a ton of work.

 

[nickblaze466]

yeah it'll pick up 3500#, its a pretty solid crane.

i've found some tongs on the net but they are all right around 200, which seems a bit steep for tongs. they suggested i use lifting tongs and not skidders because of the weight, but i have little to no experience with tongs at all.

 

[Billy_Bob]

To me it is just a dollars and cents thing.

First what do I have the money to buy?

If I only have $10,000.00 and there is a truck for $10,000.00 and I will need to do a little more work (my time) with this truck than with say a $20,000.00 truck... Well it would be nice to have the $20,000.00 truck, but I only have $10,000.00, so that is what I will get. (For now.) So "living within your means".

Then there is the "added business" way to look at things. If I have to turn down 50% of customers calling my business because I don't have a certain piece of equipment. Then I can run the numbers. Say I will get $2,000.00 more per month in business if I buy this piece of equipment. And say my costs for doing that business would be $1,000.00 per month. And if I got a loan to buy the equipment, the payments, insurance, etc. would be an additional $500.00 per month in costs. Well that would leave me with an additional $500.00 per month in profit if I were to purchase that piece of equipment. So maybe a good idea!

BUT if I rarely need a piece of equipment, say once or twice a month, then maybe renting would be a better option and tack on the costs to the customer. If they don't want to pay, then I don't rent it.

Then another way to look at things is: How can I reduce my operating costs?

Where and how can I cut my costs? I am driving a diesel truck 2000 miles a month (I own truck, no payments). I can get a loan to buy a new truck which uses gasoline and gets higher gas mileage.

How much will my savings be per month with the new truck?
How much will the payments be per month?
How much will my truck insurance increase?

Will I save money or will this cost me more per month?


Then yet another way to look at things. I have extra money laying around and want to put it back into the business. I don't need the money personally. I can buy new equipment which will reduce my operating, maintenance, and labor costs (better MPG, uses gasoline, new - less repair, has grapple). And I can use this as a business expense to reduce my taxes.

 

[Bushler]

Tongs work by digging into the sap of the log pretty deep. Going to spoil some sap wood for milling. Tongs are notorious for 'slipping' and that could mean you could have a log on you if not carefull.

I was a guest on a logging helicopter and we used tongs one cycle. It was wild when they'd slip....

I also used tongs for loading log trucks back in the day. There's definitely a learning curve on setting and releasing them.

Tongs are typically build from some pretty good steel, so $200 doesn't seem at all high priced to me.

High tensile chain w/slip hook might be a better option. Hard part is going to be getting chain out from under the log without rolling the log off the load.

 

[Jaredm]

what brand of diesel is it? is it a detroit? if so there isn't anything that bad about them. I dont agree with what your friends dad says, sure diesel is more expensive but youl burn alot less of it than a similar truck with a 454/427 gas engine.

 

[nickblaze466]

its a detroit diesel, yeah

 

[Billy_Bob]

Another way I look at things "money wise" is...

With a truck or car. New may be $20,000.00 to $50,000.00.

If I buy a VERY used model for say $1000.00 and expect to replace/rebuild everything mechanical basically, then how much will this cost?

I've done this in the past replacing engine (rebuilt long block), transmission, U-joints, differential, bearings, tires, etc. and the cost does not come close to $20,000!

The down side to this is that you can't get cosmetic parts (like new dash) if old vehicle. So may not look good, but it runs! And if a truck, no worry about throwing stuff in the bed and scratching the paint or whatever - who cares?

 

[custom8726]

Nylon straps work well also. Its not as fast as loading with tongs but much safer IMO...

 

[joesawer]

A Detriot beats a gas motor any day of the week.
Tongs are much fater than a chain or choker but less secure. I you use tongs definatly use the lifting tongs. They are much more secure than skidding tongs. Make sure that you are not where the log can not get on you when it falls, it will sooner or later.
You can learn to shake the tongs on and off the log with the boom.
Even a chain would be better than hand loading.
Here is some 25" lifting tongs but they are $200. http://www.baileysonline.com/search.asp?SKW=tongs&catID=244

 

[nickblaze466]

i found some log lifting tongs online for 200.00 shipped 2 day express, they'll be here tomorow i hope. i need to get some chain still, and then i should be all set for lifting some logs. i'm going to run down to bobcat today after work and order my new bucket since they don't make it anymore, and then i should be pretty much setup to pick up some big ones.

i think the truck will work out, i'll post up some pics of it later on when i get it home and play with it a little bit. its definately the biggest truck i've ever purchased and probably ever driven.

we'll see how it goes

 

[custom8726]

The tongs do work well but When lifting overhead I do not trust them. Not only for the safety of myself and co-workers but to the property around you also. For instance you have a 2k log 12' off the ground and the tongs slip and the log slams the home owners driveway now the little amount of time saved is tuff to justify. The pic below is how we generally strap the logs. Its not the best pic and the straps are generally not as long but we were previously loading 2-4 logs at once with the straps. Good luck with the new equipment your back will love ya for it.

 

[custom8726]

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg33/custom8726/Crane job/logs1.jpg

There's the pic.

 

[cycledude232]

nice truck, you will be very pleased with it. good buy. well worth the money. you will be able to work that truck a good long time. im hoping to buy something similar in the next few months. Good luck with it and your business. :greenchainsaw:

 

[nickblaze466]

well i went down to pick it up saturday. got there about 10pm, started the truck and drove it over to the gas station across the street to play with the crane. worked good 'til i tried to extend out the boom and put down the outriggers. then everything was down and wouldn't pull back up. had to leave the truck down there.

called today and the guy informed me he was not refunding my money and i need to come get my truck. everything works fine, i just have to make sure i rev the motor up to get the pump spinning faster and it'll pull in. so i asked him how i would rev the motor and run the crane at the same time. he didn't have an answer for that, but no refunds

called lawyer and merchant processor and they're going to file a claim and get my money back. guy was pretty upset though. now i'm stuck looking around at other things. i've found another one thats bigger, but more money...and its closer to home which is a nice bonus.

i was told to get one of those hud-son setups with the loader on the trailer. just got off the phone with them, for 17k i can have one. i don't think thats going to happen.

 

[Jaredm]

there should be a hand throttle on it either in the cab or where the controls for the crane are

 

[nickblaze466]

we went over the crane several times, theres nothing on it to increase the speed on the motor. it runs of a pto off the diesel. the guy that runs the crane on a regular basis was the one who said you have to rev it up from the cab and then boom it in or out.

 

[Pulp Friction]

well i went down to pick it up saturday. got there about 10pm, started the truck and drove it over to the gas station across the street to play with the crane. worked good 'til i tried to extend out the boom and put down the outriggers. then everything was down and wouldn't pull back up. had to leave the truck down there......

If the guy wanted to sell it badly enough he would have gotten his own gas first. I would have insisted on a crane demo prior to paying any cash. I hope it all works oiut for the best.