Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge

[Arrowhead]

Very good thread!!
I've had great results using the acetone/atf mix in the ultra sonic cleaner for extremely rusty chains.
My US cleaner heats to 180 degrees, sometimes I'll run them for a few hours.
For mildly rusty chains, I use Purple power in the ultra sonic cleaner, but your purple stuff sounds better with the lye.

 

[blades]

Soak your rust frozen stuff in a mix of acetone and atf ( cheapest stuff you can find is fine). 50/50 mix ( atf=auto trany fluid) This does not remove rust but will penetrate and break it free. Recent tests against all the fancy penetrating oils on market- this age old mix is still the best by a huge margin.

 

[Philbert]

If your electrolysis method is lifting the Cr plating that mean that you have connected the object onto the wrong terminal. If it is connected the right way you won't lose any metal from the object.

I attach the Negative terminal to the good part that I want to 'lose' (-) rust.

I attach the Positive terminal to the sacrificial part that I want to 'gain' (+) rust.

It may have been due to weak plating, but the chrome clearly spalled off in the electrolysis. Sabre chain. 'Looked' OK before. The chrome is electroplated on; does not seem unreasonable to me that it could degrade the plating?



I have a bunch of un-rusted 'scraps' of STIHL and Oregon chains - maybe I will throw some of those into the electrolysis bath sometime and see if any chrome flakes off. It might have been the rust or age of that other chain, etc.

FWIW I have not used my chain cleaner (which I made for removing pitch) since I made it.

Interesting to hear - still a very cool rig. As noted, I now use a sodium hydroxide based degreaser which works very well. Wasn't sure if your pitch would respond as well, or if we had different 'crud' on our chains.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Soak your rust frozen stuff in a mix of acetone and atf ( cheapest stuff you can find is fine). 50/50 mix ( atf=auto trany fluid) This does not remove rust but will penetrate and break it free. Recent tests against all the fancy penetrating oils on market- this age old mix is still the best by a huge margin.

As noted in a few posts above, I have one of Steve NW WI's chains soaking in it now for about four months, after some initial de-rusting. Did not show improvement after the first month, so I just left it in there over the winter and will check it again when it warms up.

Nothing will work on everything. And some things might be too far gone. But it's good to have lots of options in your 'bag of tricks'!

Philbert

 

[BobL]

I attach the Negative terminal to the part that I want to 'lose' (-) rust.
I attach the Positive terminal to the part that I want to 'gain' (+) rust

That's fine, now why the Cr plating would lift still has me thinking. What electrolyte did you use?

 

[Philbert]

What electrolyte did you use?

Arm & Hammer washing soda (sodium carbonate).

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

. . . I was able move enough of the links to fit it in an old peanut butter jar back in late October/early November with a 50% acetone/50% ATF penetrant. Agitated it periodically. Checked it weekly. After a month or so, there was not much difference from when I put it in. Disappointed, but I left it out there in the garage and will check it again once the weather warms up and I can dig it out.

Update - 5 months (+/-) later . . .

Checked the chain after soaking in this for 5 months or so. No change. Still have the same number (15) of frozen rivets/pivot points. Rest of the chassis is only in fair condition, with some chrome missing on some cutters. Chain could still be mounted on a display saw, but not run.

Not saying that this stuff doesn't work - saying it did not work for me, on this chain, this time. Plus it stinks! Guys that work around diesel fuel or tranny fluid all the time might get used to it, but these fluids have a very strong smell, and I would prefer to use other stuff if I have the option.

WINNER? - Rust.

LESSONS?
- Better to prevent rust than try to remove it.
- ATF/acetone home brew may work in some situations, but don't expect miracles.

Anybody got a new challenge chain? Hopefully with some other issues than rust?

Philbert

EDIT: I think that I now could free up the remaining, frozen links, based on postings in later threads. However, the chrome on these cutters is badly damaged, so it is not worth the effort for me at this time. Maybe if it was a unique or unusual chain for display purposes.

 

[jerrycmorrow]

time to get the plyers and hammer out

 

[Yukon Stihl]

Try putting it in a jar of Antifreeze.I heard it would penetrate rust after a while.
Some where i have a jar of Antifreeze with a gun bolt and few other parts in it.A friend ad found a rifle in a lake,after the 60/90 days for someone to claim it the cops gave it to him.Well it was pretty rusted so he gave it to me,i did get it apart and heard about the Antifreeze....then moved....then moved,and most of my stuff is still in storage.Every once in a while i wonder how it's working.
Thomas

 

[w8ye]

A few years ago I bought a 031 and it came with a half dozen RSC 72 DL chains that had been cutting in creosote. They were fuzzy black. I squared up the most worn out one and gave it to a friend. He cut cookies with it here and there on different saws he had worked on in some wood he had out back.

I looked at it a couple months latter and you would never know it had been covered with burned creosote? Why it was a nice square ground chain that looked like someone had taken care of.

So if you can get the links free, sharpen and put it on a saw!

 

[Philbert]

I can dissolve creosote with a solvent and have a clean chain underneath (maybe). Rust is a different animal - even if I 'remove' it, that does not replace the missing metal.

This chain is not in that good of condition - might have been made usable for projects where you did not want to risk your 'good' chains.

It did let me test some of the practical limits of EvapiRust and the ATF/acetone home brew.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Rust Never Sleeps (Challenge Chains 6 A, B, C, D?)

The chains in these photos were received encased in crud - could not see what I was working with. Cleaning them with the caustic degreaser went pretty fast, and revealed a lot of rust. Left them in the oxalic acid (OA) solution for a day or so, followed by a stiff brushing with a stainless steel scratch brush. Now they can be evaluated.

Surface rust is pretty much eliminated by this point, or a few remaining areas can be identified for additional attention. Easy win. The green color is due to the OA process - it can be scrubbed off (or maybe I can call them 'camo chains' and sell them to the Army?).



I am finding that a number of chains have heavy, crusty rust on a portion of the loop, and only surface rust on the rest. Since heavy rust eats metal, and frequently damages the chromed portions of the cutters, that portion is probably not salvageable for regular use. It makes more sense to punch out these bad portions, and to save the good portions to make smaller loops, or to mate up with identical chain.



Many rusted chains clean up fairly well on the outside surfaces, but still have frozen links. I have tried a few ways to free these, and once you get a little bit of movement, they often loosen up quickly. My current method is to hold the adjacent drive link tightly in the corner of my machinist's vise jaws, then tap the tie strap lightly with a small, tack hammer or a flat punch and ball peen hammer. A drop of thin oil (e.g. '3-in-One', or penetrating oil) really helps when you move the joint back and forth. If you have to tap a cutter, you might want to place a small block of wood in between to reduce the risk of damage.

This can be a lot of work if a lot of links are stuck, and may not be worth the effort, unless the chain is special, or is in generally good condition otherwise.





I tried cleaning one of these chains in my ultrasonic cleaner (USC) with 'Purple Power'. Turned on the heat and set it for 8 minutes (the longest cycle). It degreased the chain, but it did not seem to do a significantly better job than the caustic cleaner in the sink, and took a lot longer. Plus, it was messy to clean up the USC afterwards. This might be a good option in some cases, but will not be my first choice.

Winner? Philbert!
I got 1 good, usable chain; 1 usable, end-of-life chain; 38 links of donor chain; and a scrap chain that I can experiment on with my grinder and electrolytic rust removal system, without guilt.

Lessons Learned?
- a vise, tack hammer, and 3-in-One oil help loosen up frozen links.
- some rust is not worth the effort, especially if it is deep, or if the cutters or chrome are damaged.
- some chains that arrive at Philbert's 'no-kill' chain shelter are, unfortunately, already 'dead'.
- partial loops can often be harvested from rusted chain loops for transplant.
- USC works on some chains, but was messier, and took longer for me.

Philbert

 

[zogger]

Yo, never tried it, just a thought...ever hit those frozen rusted ones with a pass from a propane torch? Nothing excessive, just a pass for a sec. I've done it to rusty nuts and bolts before, just a little heat expansion then cool off contraction breaks the rust barrier.

 

[Philbert]

...ever hit those frozen rusted ones with a pass from a propane torch?

Interesting thought Zog. I do dry most chains in a 150-200*F oven after cleaning and rinsing.

It might make a difference whether the plates (tie straps and drive links) are rusted together, or if the rivets have actually rusted inside the drive link holes.

Anyway, still better to keep the chains from rusting in the first place.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Who Hasn't Thought About This?

Found this while degreasing a 'mostly' Oregon chain. Yep. It's a Pop rivet!

Philbert

 

[zogger]

Who Hasn't Thought About This?

Found this while degreasing a 'mostly' Oregon chain. Yep. It's a Pop rivet!

Philbert

I'd be chicken to run that thing.

 

[zogger]

Now I can see an emergency cobjob out in the field with like a finish nail cut to size and hammered on both sides to make it kinda sorta like a rivet. but even then...uhh..I don't like busted or thrown chains.

 

[7sleeper]

Have you ever taken an angle grinder with a steel brusch to a rusty chain? That should clean the rust off in seconds.

7

 

[Philbert]

Now I can see an emergency cobjob out in the field with like a finish nail cut to size and hammered on both sides to make it kinda sorta like a rivet. . . .

One problem with these approaches is that chain rivets are not a uniform diameter along their length. The hole in the drive link is larger than the holes in the tie straps, and the wider, hardened part of the rivet acts like a bearing. If you substitute a straight rivet, the drive link will be slightly offset, and not line up correctly with the drive or nose sprockets, causing extra wear.

Have you ever taken an angle grinder with a steel brusch to a rusty chain?

Wire wheels are an option for surface rust. BobL even developed a fixture for cleaning gunk off of his chains with one (see YouTube link in Post #98).

When I use a wire wheel on my bench grinder, I often find wires sticking out out of my safety goggles afterward, so they are not my favorite method. Plus, they do not get in-between the links, around the rivets, etc. I have been using the oxalic acid soak (3 ounces of dry powder to 1 gallon of water), followed by hand brushing of the outside with a wire brush. It leaves a green 'patina', but that is cosmetic. I have also used vinegar (acetic acid), which leaves a black coating (and a pickle smell!); and 'EvapoRust', a commercial (and expensive) product.

Phosphoric acid ('naval jelly' here in the US) penetrates deeper rust, but cautions against damaging chrome. So I use that sparingly on remaining pits that are not on the chromed cutters.

Philbert

 

[Wood Doctor]

I thought I would add a little arithmetic to Philbert's thread. Chains for 36" bars with 3/8" pitch contain 114 drive links apiece. If you connect two together with a master link, you can obtain one chain with 228 DLs. That equals 72 + 72 + 84.

So, if a logger gives you two chains that fit his 36" bar, they can be salvaged with three master links to obtain chains for two 20" bars and one 25" bar. The only thing you need to look out for is that the two chains for the 36" bar have two adjacent cutters positioned on opposite sides so that you can link them together without the loss of a drive link.

I've salvaged over a dozen chains this way for use on smaller firewood saws.