Question about lifespan of Professional vs. Mid-grade vs. Homeowner chainsaws

[cwatkin]

I own both a Stihl MS-250 and M-361. The 250 is considered a homeowner saw although I give it pretty heavy use. The 361 is considered a pro saw and it gets heavy use too. I have noticed that the emissions rating for the homeowner saws is 50 hours while the pro models are 300 hours. I forget the rating on the mid-grade saws since I don't own one but seem to recall around 125 or 150 hours.

My question is what do these numbers mean in terms of saw life? I know the body of my 361 has a lot more metal in it than the 250, plus the side cover is all metal so I am sure it can take more use and abuse for a longer period of time. Does this mean that the engine can withstand that many hours of use? There are days where I put many hours on the little 250. I am sure it won't be too long before I have 50 running hours on that saw. It still runs great and starts like a champ as long as I keep the air cleaner clean.

Sure, I don't expect this saw to run as long as a pro saw but my dad happens to have a Poulan Pro (46 cc) that is basically the same size as this MS-250 (45 cc) and it has the same rating of 50 hours. Now, my Stihl costs twice as much as this Poulan but they have the same emissions life rating??? I don't consider Stihl and Poulan to even be in the same class and can tell you that the MS-250 is a far better saw than the Poulan 4620AV that he has, not that the Poulan Pro is a bad saw for his needs. Even the cheapest saw at Wal-Mart carries the same rating of 50 hours and I think I would rather throw my money in a fire or down the toilet than buy one of those as it would be less frustrating...

I also mix my oil and gas slightly richer (40:1) than the suggested 50:1). Experienced loggers tell me that engines last a lot longer, especially with all the alcohol in the gas now, than if you use the suggested 50:1. They say that the only reasons to mix at the suggested 50:1 is for the manufacturers to keep the EPA happy and sell you more equipment since it wears out sooner. I use the Stihl Ultra synthetic oil that comes in a white or silver bottle if that makes a difference. How much difference should this mix ratio of the synthetic oil make for engine life? I put synthetic in all my vehicles and 4 stroke small engines too. Oil in anything air cooled is going to get a major workout.

Any clarification on these ratings would be appreciated. Is there any difference in the construction of the engine or the materials used? Are the piston rings and cylinder bore made of less durable materials in the cheaper units?

Thank you,

Conor

 

[spike60]

The hour ratings have nothing to do with engine life. Those numbers represent the number of hours that the engine must maintain it's emission compliance. The pro saws, which will in most cases see the most use, must therefore stay in compliance for a longer period of time. The MS250 is a tough little saw. I wouldn't worry too much about it wearing out.

 

[cwatkin]

The hour ratings have nothing to do with engine life. Those numbers represent the number of hours that the engine must maintain it's emission compliance. The pro saws, which will in most cases see the most use, must therefore stay in compliance for a longer period of time. The MS250 is a tough little saw. I wouldn't worry too much about it wearing out.

I see. So is it like the spark plug shouldn't need to be changed or the carb need any tuning for that period of time? I thought it might relate to compression/blowby of the engine but it sounds like that isn't the case.

Yes, the MS-250 is definitely a tough saw. Mine came with the quick adjust tensioner which I hated and caused nothing but problems. A comment/compliant to Stihl got me a standard style side cover and tensioner parts which I have been VERY happy with so far. This is a trouble-free little workhorse now.

Thanks,

Conor

 

[opinion]

The hour ratings have nothing to do with engine life. Those numbers represent the number of hours that the engine must maintain it's emission compliance. The pro saws, which will in most cases see the most use, must therefore stay in compliance for a longer period of time. The MS250 is a tough little saw. I wouldn't worry too much about it wearing out.

I always wondered what exactly those numbers meant. I thought it just meant it maintained it's emission compliance for 50hrs, 300 hrs before it's no longer compliant. If it means that it must maintain emissions for that long, why do Echo's all have 300 hrs and other manu. have 50? All that epa bs is confusing.

 

[cwatkin]

I always wondered what exactly those numbers meant. I thought it just meant it maintained it's emission compliance for 50hrs, 300 hrs before it's no longer compliant. If it means that it must maintain emissions for that long, why do Echo's all have 300 hrs and other manu. have 50? All that epa bs is confusing.

It sounds kinda like an arbitrary number to keep the government happy. I wonder??? Do some of the supposed "homeowner" grade saws share key parts with the "professional" models? It seems like making all sorts of different parts for different saws would be more expensive than making the same parts to fit both the cheap and pro saws. I know that this happens with shipping all the time. I choose the cheap/slow shipping method and my item shows up here 3 days later.

Conor

 

[Chris-PA]

Sure, I don't expect this saw to run as long as a pro saw but my dad happens to have a Poulan Pro (46 cc) that is basically the same size as this MS-250 (45 cc) and it has the same rating of 50 hours. Now, my Stihl costs twice as much as this Poulan but they have the same emissions life rating??? I don't consider Stihl and Poulan to even be in the same class and can tell you that the MS-250 is a far better saw than the Poulan 4620AV that he has, not that the Poulan Pro is a bad saw for his needs. Even the cheapest saw at Wal-Mart carries the same rating of 50 hours and I think I would rather throw my money in a fire or down the toilet than buy one of those as it would be less frustrating...

I don't see that at all. My 2775 is the same basic saw as the 4620. I've done quite a bit of work on it so I know how it's made and what it's made of. I've also had my Dad's MS250C apart. The 2775 and the MS250C re made out of the same materials and the same basic construction methods. They both run pretty well and have very similar power, although my 2775 has more beans than the MS250C now that it has a muffler mod. And both of them were defective from the factory. The MS250C has a nice little plastic partition you can move for cold weather operation, but it has flippy caps. But the biggest difference is that the MS250C cost twice as much.

 

[zogger]

It sounds kinda like an arbitrary number to keep the government happy. I wonder??? Do some of the supposed "homeowner" grade saws share key parts with the "professional" models? It seems like making all sorts of different parts for different saws would be more expensive than making the same parts to fit both the cheap and pro saws. I know that this happens with shipping all the time. I choose the cheap/slow shipping method and my item shows up here 3 days later.

Conor

--that's why I wish there was an all USA made saw company that made one grade saw, the best they could, just a few different sizes and configs.

If I had the loot, dagnabbit I think I would start one.

And no, I don't mean a foreign company with a plant in the US, I mean a new USA saw company.

That or some sort of buyout or takeover with the old cool USA brands that still exist today, but are foreign owned, then go from there and build quality..REAL quality.

Freeking "grades" on power equipment is just bogus. IMO, of course. Either build it to work, or it is crap, "grades" is a chintzy cop out. Yes, it is a marketing "tool", I don't care, it still sucks.

 

[cwatkin]

I don't see that at all. My 2775 is the same basic saw as the 4620. I've done quite a bit of work on it so I know how it's made and what it's made of. I've also had my Dad's MS250C apart. The 2775 and the MS250C re made out of the same materials and the same basic construction methods. They both run pretty well and have very similar power, although my 2775 has more beans than the MS250C now that it has a muffler mod. And both of them were defective from the factory. The MS250C has a nice little plastic partition you can move for cold weather operation, but it has flippy caps. But the biggest difference is that the MS250C cost twice as much.

Yeah, I don't think the Poulan Pro is a bad saw by any means but it seems like the Stihl is made better all around. Now my dad has put a lot of hours on one and was very happy until it was broken and that wasn't really the fault of the saw. He is getting another one and I found some junk saws that should have parts to fix it next time I see him. The engine and such is fine but the body, bar nut studs, etc. have issues. It seems like things do come apart, the tensioner comes loose easier, etc.. Now, is the Stihl/Echo/Husky equivalant worth TWICE the price? Maybe not that much of a difference, but I definitely think it is worth more. All things considered, my dad has cut a lot of wood with Poulan Pro's but I heat my house with wood and feel it is worth the extra money to have one you know will work and is easier to repair in the field. Now the purple/green crap from Wal-Mart. I wouldn't touch that. Anything sold to Wal-Mart is made just for them and Wal-Mart wants it to be the cheapest in town so the vendor has to make it at a reduced cost to remain profitable. The part/model numbers of stuff at Wal-Mart is even specific to them. This article is a prime example of this: The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart | Fast Company I work on computers on the side and I can tell that those sold at some of the big retailers, especially black friday models and such, are made with way cheaper components.

Conor

 

[cwatkin]

--that's why I wish there was an all USA made saw company that made one grade saw, the best they could, just a few different sizes and configs.

If I had the loot, dagnabbit I think I would start one.

And no, I don't mean a foreign company with a plant in the US, I mean a new USA saw company.

That or some sort of buyout or takeover with the old cool USA brands that still exist today, but are foreign owned, then go from there and build quality..REAL quality.

Freeking "grades" on power equipment is just bogus. IMO, of course. Either build it to work, or it is crap, "grades" is a chintzy cop out. Yes, it is a marketing "tool", I don't care, it still sucks.

I don't like the "grades" of things either. Almost everything is being sold that way now. The homeowner grade is made cheap so that the person out shopping for a bargain will buy your model instead of the competitor's that costs $15 more in price. I work on computers and see this all the time. The cheapest model on the shelf IS NOT the best deal as it is made with low end parts in terms of quality and performance. IT seems like many of these are made to last through the warranty and then break. Often, the repairs (to do it right) are more than the unit cost new!

So, here is how it is done on everything, whether it be power equipment or computers. The company makes a pro model that costs considerable more than the homeowner model. It seems that this model is definitely better made and will last longer and have fewer problems along the way. The price difference may be considerable and some of this is likely to makeup for the low margins of the consumer model. They also realize a business is going to lose WAY more than the $200-300 extra they spend on the pro equipment in short order if something breaks in lost time and business. An extreme example is comparing the machining tolerance at Toyota or GM to that of NASA. If something goes wrong in space, it is a lot bigger deal than if your car breaks down along the road.

The average consumer will spend an entire Saturday driving around from retailer to retailer looking for the cheapest price without much regard to quality or performance. "That chainsaw looks just like the one at <fill in the blank> but is $15 cheaper." The best way to tell if the units are the same is to compare model numbers. Some big box retailers do sell the same exact model of tool sold in a dedicated tool store for a lesser price (good luck getting it fixed there though) but a lot of the stuff is made just for the consumer who is shopping for bargains.

Conor

 

[spike60]

To answer the OP's question in the thread title. There are an awful lot of Homeowner grade saws being used in commercial applications. Husky 445's and 455's. Stihl 250's and 290's. They take a beating and they hold up way better than most of us saw geeks would believe. They aren't the best choice for technical work, or wheer power and acceleration are crucial. But as general purpose ground saws for "inexperienced" employees, they are realiable and get the job done with no fuss.

 

[BloodOnTheIce]

to answer the op's question in the thread title. There are an awful lot of homeowner grade saws being used in commercial applications. Husky 445's and 455's. Stihl 250's and 290's. They take a beating and they hold up way better than most of us saw geeks would believe. They aren't the best choice for technical work, or wheer power and acceleration are crucial. But as general purpose ground saws for "inexperienced" employees, they are realiable and get the job done with no fuss.

This is heresy!
Liar liar this can't possibly be true!

 

[justtools]

I always wondered what exactly those numbers meant. I thought it just meant it maintained it's emission compliance for 50hrs, 300 hrs before it's no longer compliant. If it means that it must maintain emissions for that long, why do Echo's all have 300 hrs and other manu. have 50? All that epa bs is confusing.

That is a simple question all Echos are considered and built to be pro quality saws. They may not rev the fastest. May not be the lightest. But they are the most problem free line of chainsaws. The city I live in Switched over to Echos 2 years ago. They beat them to death and they keep working. I own a number of Stihl and Huskys along with Echos. I loan out the echos to the inlaws and to my surprise I have not got one back broken. We all know about the inlaws. They are usually about half the IQ of a good hunting dog. This has to mean something. I wonder if Echo would get a better rep on here if it was a USA company?

 

[jbighump]

local tree guys tried out some stihl 310's instead of 361's and they got one year of service out of them....not bad for 5 days a week 52 weeks a year prolly 4 or so hours a day....u dont have to have a pro saw to cut firewood even commercially,,,, the construction of the saws uses the same quality bearings and pistons and such they are just built differently,,, clamshell crankcases on the homeowner and mid grade saws and vertically split crank cases on the pro saws no biggee either one will last with care or either one will fail with neglect:msp_thumbup:

 

[hamish]

Which one lasts longer is strcitly dependant upon the operator.

Percentile wise "home owner or landowner" saws last longer than pro saw out of the shear volume sold per annum. There a boatloads of 55 and 029's still cutting near every day and lots of pro saws seized up.

Just because something is in a higher grade or lineup doesn't mean it will perform in the hands of a monkey.

Keeping the saw clean, a sharp chain and good fuel will quadruple the life of a saw.

 

[fearofpavement]

Americans want choices

The reasons there are so many kinds and grades of saws out there is that we Americans like to have choices. Been looking for car lately? How many different variations can you get? maybe like two or three hundred? Why doesn't everyone drive a four door Impala? Because some people want a BMW and some people want a Hyundai.

For the average homeowner, a box store saw well cared for will last for decades. However the average homeowner doesn't care for their saw well. Buy it, cut up the tree branch and put it in the garage. Three years later another branch or tree down, saw won't start, take it to shop and throw it out after estimate and purchase new saw to cut branch, put saw in garage...

So a saw of any make if used regularly will last far in excess of what many will expect. Even a Wild Thang will cut many tons of wood before its demise.

I have a mix of pro, semi pro and homeowner grade saws and they all seem to work fine. I even have a green one (Poulan 2055) that I keep in my truck. The primer bulb rotted off it but it starts and runs whenever I need it. I used it a few days ago to make one cut on a 2x2 as I needed a sharp stake.

Do I cut firewood with that saw? No, but I would if that was the only one I had and I bet it would make a lot of chips before something broke off of it.

Many people like to buy "the best" when they really don't need to but hey, if they want to stimulate the economy in that way, let them.

 

[cwatkin]

That is true...

I have noticed a lot of equipment out there that is broken from not being used. The gas breaks down, gets gunked up, and gums the carb. Odds are it wil cost about as much to repair as to replace if bought at a box store. I have picked up a lot of good "junk" equipment that can be fixed by pulling the carb apart and spraying it with carb cleaner. It doesn't matter what it is, but I make sure to run all my equipment at least every 2-3 months and even then I put stabilizer in the gas when I am not going to be using it for a while. This works well for me.

I also agree that care and handling of equipment makes a big difference. Lots of people buy a new mower every year. They never change the oil and don't drain or preserve the gas at the end of the season. When it doesn't start the next season, out to the curb it goes and a new cheapo is purchased. My mowers are all "homeowner" grade although they aren't bottom of the line. They are well cared for and always get synthetic oil, plus I use stabilizer in the gas off season and have it filled to the brim so air can't get in and oxidize the gas. There are two schools of thought. 1) Completely run equipment dry on gas. 2) Leave it completely full and use stabilizer. I have had far more trouble with option 1. I think the residue still oxidizes and cruds things up.

Conor

 

[galde]

The emissions compliance ratings are assigned by certified testing laboratories that get paid big bucks for testing and certifying the manufacturers' products. They charge by the hour, and their bill for a 300-hour certification is many times greater than for a 50-hour certification. You should get a few hundred hours out of the "50-hour" saw, and you should get a few thousand hours out of the "300-hour" saw. The rating is more of a marketing gimmick than a predictor of how many hours the saw will last. The number mostly tells you how much the manufacturer chose to spend on the compliance rating test.

 

[spike60]

This is heresy!
Liar liar this can't possibly be true!

Yes, I confess you're correct and I beg absolution.

Everyone MUST buy nothing but pro saws. Dozens and dozens of them. When you think you have enough, get several more just to be sure. If you run out of space, put up a storage building. When that fills up, ask your family if they would mind all sharing the same bedroom. :biggrin:

 

[indiansprings]

Although I primarily own pro saws, I wouldn't hesitate to buy and run Stihl 290's, 311, 391, Husky 460, 359, 555 or old 350 if that I could afford, for commercial firewood cutting I don't think the lifespan would
be all that different because we take of our equipment. I've seen 029/290/250's and a neighbors 455 that have had the dog snot run out of them for years with no or little maint. I'd dare say that 90% of the guys on here could get buy easy with mid-grade homeowner saws, but it boils down to this is an enthusiast site and most want to have the biggest baddest dogs/best tool they can buy. I wouldn't be afraid of going and buying a 291 or 391/555 just starting out in the firewood business, the saw will get more wood cut than most guys will ever want to cut in a day,.....day after day, week after week, month after month. Most of the mid grade, home owner saws are more capable than most owners wood needs and work ethic imho. I doubt if you can show me a hand full of guys that are capable of wearing one out if it is properly maintained and fed good clean fuel and mix and serviced regularly.

 

[cwatkin]

Although I primarily own pro saws, I wouldn't hesitate to buy and run Stihl 290's, 311, 391, Husky 460, 359, 555 or old 350 if that I could afford, for commercial firewood cutting I don't think the lifespan would
be all that different because we take of our equipment. I've seen 029/290/250's and a neighbors 455 that have had the dog snot run out of them for years with no or little maint. I'd dare say that 90% of the guys on here could get buy easy with mid-grade homeowner saws, but it boils down to this is an enthusiast site and most want to have the biggest baddest dogs/best tool they can buy. I wouldn't be afraid of going and buying a 291 or 391/555 just starting out in the firewood business, the saw will get more wood cut than most guys will ever want to cut in a day,.....day after day, week after week, month after month. Most of the mid grade, home owner saws are more capable than most owners wood needs and work ethic imho. I doubt if you can show me a hand full of guys that are capable of wearing one out if it is properly maintained and fed good clean fuel and mix and serviced regularly.

I have to say that I am quite impressed with me MS-250 so far and this is a "homeowner" saw getting used for much more than occaisonal trimming. My only complaint would have to be the quick adjust what seemed cheap and flimsy. The parts were all plastic and seemed to work loose over time. This problem got MUCH worse right after the warranty went out but a comment/complaint to Stihl got me parts to swap this out to a normal adjustment side cover and now the saw is solid as a rock.

Now someone said that they wouldn't mind having a Poulan Pro 2620AVX like my dad owns in comparison to a stihl MS-250 (similar sized saws) but I beg to differ. ALthough I cannot complain about the running operation of the engine, the fit and finish of the rest of the saws doesn't seem to match the quality of the Stihl. He had the quick adjust side cover at first which was a bigger pain than the one on my Stihl. We changed that out to a standard side cover and it still doesn't hold as tight as I think it should and it must be adjusted from time to time. A few of the bolts/screws on the handle and anti-vibration system have worked loose over time. These seem to stay in place if you put them back with some blue loctite. My dad has cut A LOT of wood with these saws and I don't feel they they are a bad saw but wouldn't want to count on one if I cut wood for a living or as my primary source of heat. He now has two of these saws due to one getting broken (it was more user error, not the fault of the saw). I was able to find a junk saw with a blown engine and use the parts to make one working saw again so he has two identical units now. I once owned a slightly smaller version of this saw (seem to recall 36 or 38 cc's) and never had a problem with it working when needed.

Although I know many people here love owning a ton of saws, I think two saws is a good number for a semi-serious wood cutter (I pretty much heat exclusively with wood). Here are my reasons. Due to the shelf life of gasoline, I don't want to have to maintain and run extra equipment just so it doesn't gum up over time. I also don't want to have to store all this stuff. I was running my Stihl MS-361 for my main saw for a while and would switch between some used Poulan Pros and Stihl MS-170/180 saws for a while when I just wanted to trim. I always seemed to be disappointed with the MS-170/180 saws as they weren't of much use on anything larger than small branches. My dealer had a sale on the MS-250 a little over a year ago and I decided to get one sight unseen. I had never used one but the saw was described as one that is small enough for trimming jobs but powerful enough for light-duty firewood cutting. Let's just say that I don't regret my purchase and all my other small saws were sold/traded off so that I only had the MS-250 and MS-361.

I have found that the MS-250 is excellent for smaller firewood cutting. I got mine with a 16 inch bar and find that this does a great job for all but the larger jobs and serves my needs quite nicely. I can use the saw all day without wearing out. The larger MS-361 isn't a huge saw but it does work you a little harder. Also, I like having two saws so that I can have a backup. If one breaks down, I can keep cutting but my main use to to cut myself out of trouble if I happen to pinch/bind the bar on one of the saws. I don't do this very often but having a spare saw on hand works wonders for getting yourself out of trouble.

As for trimming, I also own a Stihl FS-250 trimmer and the pole pruner attachment. This pruner consists of a gearbox that attaches to the shaft and has a 10 or 12 inch bar. The only drawback I have with this unit is that they don't make extensions for it like they do the Combi system and it doesn't telescope like a dedicated pole pruner but it serves 95% of my needs/wants and takes the place of a small trimming saw. I like this unit as you can trim from a distance on blowdown trees or in heavy brush without having to get into the mess youself.

Conor