clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Odd, isn't it. But then again so is boring every freakin tree. No need, the old fashoined way works sometimes too.
Saw techniques and cutting/felling safety
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Odd, isn't it. But then again so is boring every freakin tree. No need, the old fashoined way works sometimes too.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
double cuts
A simple reason to avoid double cuts by boring is the tendency to miss match the cuts. You can leave not just a gap in finishing the back-cut, but a less powerful but still problematic area of unsevered wood that has a horizontal component.
This will generally not be a problem on boring back-cuts to minimize barber chair risk. Heavy green leaners will snap that remaining wood readily.
The Beranek illustration shows how using the time honored method of following your back-cut around the tree, (placing wedges as needed snugly as you go), works so well. Where this works best is on trees that will need a little talking to, by wedges - jacks - pull rope etc. to get them to start.
A tree that goes before the hinge has been cut evenly may well get pulled to the unfinished side. Hence, another advantage for the bore cut.
This is all pretty simple stuff and has been rehashed extensively.
What about cutting down a tree that is almost three times the effective cutting length of your bar?
1) Huge undercut, both for depth and height. Skip the West Coast general rule of 1/3rd in. Also skip the miniature Open Face Scandavian style face cuts that go in very shallow. Essentially go big and do both. This gets you into the tree and allows the power head to fit in further. Caveat; solid wood required. Not suitable on heavy leaners, in wind etc.
2) Bore in from the face side a bunch; compare your bars length at the face to see if you are going to overlap by at least an inch.
3) Best results are to use the Beranek illustrated method. Use your swamper to visually sight from the same level as the back-cut to adjust your remaining back-cut to best match your face center bore.
Cutting down rotten hollow trees is good sport, but doesn't count in this discussion.
A simple reason to avoid double cuts by boring is the tendency to miss match the cuts. You can leave not just a gap in finishing the back-cut, but a less powerful but still problematic area of unsevered wood that has a horizontal component.
This will generally not be a problem on boring back-cuts to minimize barber chair risk. Heavy green leaners will snap that remaining wood readily.
The Beranek illustration shows how using the time honored method of following your back-cut around the tree, (placing wedges as needed snugly as you go), works so well. Where this works best is on trees that will need a little talking to, by wedges - jacks - pull rope etc. to get them to start.
A tree that goes before the hinge has been cut evenly may well get pulled to the unfinished side. Hence, another advantage for the bore cut.
This is all pretty simple stuff and has been rehashed extensively.
What about cutting down a tree that is almost three times the effective cutting length of your bar?
1) Huge undercut, both for depth and height. Skip the West Coast general rule of 1/3rd in. Also skip the miniature Open Face Scandavian style face cuts that go in very shallow. Essentially go big and do both. This gets you into the tree and allows the power head to fit in further. Caveat; solid wood required. Not suitable on heavy leaners, in wind etc.
2) Bore in from the face side a bunch; compare your bars length at the face to see if you are going to overlap by at least an inch.
3) Best results are to use the Beranek illustrated method. Use your swamper to visually sight from the same level as the back-cut to adjust your remaining back-cut to best match your face center bore.
Cutting down rotten hollow trees is good sport, but doesn't count in this discussion.
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stihl 440
Addicted to ArboristSite
face
Ok, you didn't understand. You'd be surprised on how thin of a strap you actually need to hold the tree. At times you only need a 1" strap to hold a 18" tree (live), thicker on dead trees because of the rotted sapwood. I've expiremented with this before. I've pounded the wedges in all the way in the backcut to see if it would break it, and it didn't. But when I cut the strap it pushes the backleaning tree in the direction of the face in a hurry. So it was preloaded in the direction of the face.
:biggrinbounce2: :rockn:
Ok, you didn't understand. You'd be surprised on how thin of a strap you actually need to hold the tree. At times you only need a 1" strap to hold a 18" tree (live), thicker on dead trees because of the rotted sapwood. I've expiremented with this before. I've pounded the wedges in all the way in the backcut to see if it would break it, and it didn't. But when I cut the strap it pushes the backleaning tree in the direction of the face in a hurry. So it was preloaded in the direction of the face.
:biggrinbounce2: :rockn: 
tek9tim
ArboristSite Guru
Although it drives me nuts to see somebody burn half a tank of gas on a softwood that doesn't need an open face, I'd rather see them do that than cut without any formal training. But, we all have our favorite ways to tip trees, me, I'm a no-bs west coaster. :deadhorse: I cut nasty snags, sometimes while on fire, so exposure time is a big thing to me, and farting around with an open face and bore in backcut on every tree is not the way for me. (notice the use of FOR ME in the last sentence.) I'll get a tree on the ground safely in the time it takes to make an open face.
oldsaw
"Been There, Milled That"
Ok, you didn't understand. You'd be surprised on how thin of a strap you actually need to hold the tree. At times you only need a 1" strap to hold a 18" tree (live), thicker on dead trees because of the rotted sapwood. I've expiremented with this before. I've pounded the wedges in all the way in the backcut to see if it would break it, and it didn't. But when I cut the strap it pushes the backleaning tree in the direction of the face in a hurry. So it was preloaded in the direction of the face.
That's when I do it too, when I want to preload the tree to fall where I want it. I rarely bore-cut unless it's a leaner or if I've only got a small window to tip it into.
Joesawyer, his method has nothing at all to do with protecting the backstrap or holding the tree up. It's all about convincing the tree to go where you want it with added "insurance" that it will do just that. I have to admit I enjoy falling a tree using this method, since it kind of makes a bit of a game out of it when it comes time for it to tip. You have plenty of time to make sure that everything is right.
I did a walnut a couple of years ago that was leaning over a pretty steep ravine over a creek. I bore cut it, tapped two wedges on the side I wanted it to start towards, and layed it right down along the edge of the ravine. It was one of my first bore cuts, and although all were successful, this one was the most challenging.
Mark
Engineeringnerd
ArboristSite Operative
Oldsaw,
Do you trip the bore cut by cutting level with the bore, or below it?
Do you trip the bore cut by cutting level with the bore, or below it?
oldsaw
"Been There, Milled That"
Level, but don't ask me if that's right or wrong, just what I've always done. I want the strap out of there fast with minimal effect on what I've set up to happen. Again, I'm no expert.
Mark
chainsawworld
ArboristSite Guru
WACS, GOL AND Pro CUTS are good hands on training coarses. they are 4 days long but worth the time and money. marty
Yep Double Yep
chainsawworld
ArboristSite Guru
i too cut fire lines for brushfires. and teach it to other saw teams. we all use it because it is the safest way to fell a tree. remember, the hinge does all the work to get a tree on the ground. during a brushfire you will have people running around all over the place. knowing where that tree will land is critical. it takes a little more time in the beginning but "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". you send a burning top the wrong way you just helped the fire spread. i am not picked just making a point. marty
and stirring the pot
Marty, do you bore cut every tree?
forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
would you happen to have any links to the websites for these
chainsaw courses?
i've found GOL, but not the others
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Do you not use the "two tree lengths" safety rule when falling here as well? People had better not be "running around all over the place", sounds very unproffesional, certainly not running around the fallers. And are you going to answer my question about the backcut always being higher than the undercut? I have to say, the only boring cuts I have ever seen are when the tree is way bigger than the bar and the center of the holding wood is cut from inside the undercut. I bore when I am bucking, so I don't slab out the wood, thats about it.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Flaws in GOL on the fireline
The hinge does not do all the work to get a tree to the ground.
1) Face provides the initial part of the release,
2) Back-cut - step two of the release,
3) Hinge, if everything is done properly, controls the release - the fall - the direction of fall.
Usually.
Often on the fireline, the trees being dropped are snags.
GOL - Open Face is a moot point in dead or drought timber. Remember a hinge that breaks prior to 90 degrees negatives the control, (theoretically), at the point where it breaks.
Dead snags will have the hinge break commonly around 40-50 degrees. Sometimes earlier. Rotten trees may well have no hinge control whatsoever. Drought trees of any species, (live fuel moistures down to say 110%), will be more brittle than that same species fully green, (live fuel moistures above say 160% minimum).
Spending time making an open face, (Tek9Tim's point), is a waste in large conifers generally. It is a huge safety consideration when dealing with the very dangerous dead and recently weakened by fire trees/snags on the fireline. I have yet to see a photo or appropriate emphasis by GOL training materials on looking up while falling danger trees.
The Open Face is the second hardest of the four face cuts. It apparently requires a lot of concentration. The Block Face w/Snipe, (four cuts and lots of ability needed), is the hardest.
Remember, an unobstructed limb, will fall 50 feet in less than 2 seconds and be going 40 mph when it hits the faller. LOOK UP is golden rule #2 is danger tree falling. (#1 is don't be afraid to say no).
For most people, the conventional undercut is the easiest to accomplish and allows the most vertical situational awareness. I will concede that many Humboldt professional cutters on the west coast are so good at that technique that they can and do look up very well. If you have any photos showing this by GOL - Open face practitioners, please post them.
This photo shows an Open Face Cutter in action. The serious error is not looking up, of course. This photo was not picked out selectively to make this point. The entire batch from this project showed not one single instance of the faller looking up while cutting dead trees with widow makers overhead.
The hinge does not do all the work to get a tree to the ground.
1) Face provides the initial part of the release,
2) Back-cut - step two of the release,
3) Hinge, if everything is done properly, controls the release - the fall - the direction of fall.
Usually.
Often on the fireline, the trees being dropped are snags.
GOL - Open Face is a moot point in dead or drought timber. Remember a hinge that breaks prior to 90 degrees negatives the control, (theoretically), at the point where it breaks.
Dead snags will have the hinge break commonly around 40-50 degrees. Sometimes earlier. Rotten trees may well have no hinge control whatsoever. Drought trees of any species, (live fuel moistures down to say 110%), will be more brittle than that same species fully green, (live fuel moistures above say 160% minimum).
Spending time making an open face, (Tek9Tim's point), is a waste in large conifers generally. It is a huge safety consideration when dealing with the very dangerous dead and recently weakened by fire trees/snags on the fireline. I have yet to see a photo or appropriate emphasis by GOL training materials on looking up while falling danger trees.
The Open Face is the second hardest of the four face cuts. It apparently requires a lot of concentration. The Block Face w/Snipe, (four cuts and lots of ability needed), is the hardest.
Remember, an unobstructed limb, will fall 50 feet in less than 2 seconds and be going 40 mph when it hits the faller. LOOK UP is golden rule #2 is danger tree falling. (#1 is don't be afraid to say no).
For most people, the conventional undercut is the easiest to accomplish and allows the most vertical situational awareness. I will concede that many Humboldt professional cutters on the west coast are so good at that technique that they can and do look up very well. If you have any photos showing this by GOL - Open face practitioners, please post them.
This photo shows an Open Face Cutter in action. The serious error is not looking up, of course. This photo was not picked out selectively to make this point. The entire batch from this project showed not one single instance of the faller looking up while cutting dead trees with widow makers overhead.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Safe posture while falling
One point I should also make regarding the last photo is the height of the felling cuts and how that makes for unsafe falling.
Note how the faller is cutting at a height where his posture is poor.
Sounds like a parent scolding a grade schooler doesn't it?
Really, it is that basic. He can't look up readily and has the added exposure of an unprotected cervical spine by being bent over.
Felling at this height, failing to look up, not recognizing those problems would result in flunking where I come from.
One point I should also make regarding the last photo is the height of the felling cuts and how that makes for unsafe falling.
Note how the faller is cutting at a height where his posture is poor.
Sounds like a parent scolding a grade schooler doesn't it?
Really, it is that basic. He can't look up readily and has the added exposure of an unprotected cervical spine by being bent over.
Felling at this height, failing to look up, not recognizing those problems would result in flunking where I come from.
blis
Addicted to ArboristSite
How can you not be bent over when cutting stumps low as possible??
unless, your kneeling i see no other way but to bend down...
I know there are at least several guys on here that have taken the GOL training. Do they not stress and stress again looking up?
I would like to take the courses and know that I would learn something, but it is hard to believe that this part of training is not beaten into everyones head.
tek9tim
ArboristSite Guru
There's a HUGE difference between fires on the east coast and the fires on west coast. Bigger timber, larger fires, more extreme fire behavior. There is a course that the National Wildfire Coordination Group has in the system that all fireline sawyers must go through before being certified, S-212 Wildland Fire Chainsaws. I don't know what kind of knuckleheads you're on fires with, but in seven years working with professional fire crews, I have not once had someone walk into my safety circle while felling a tree. Radios and swampers help a lot.
And a huge hell yeah to go along with Smokechase's posts.
Blis: if a tree's dead or on fire, why does it need to be cut low?
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
low stumps
Blis:
Go to one knee. This is for 'safe' trees. Your back it still vertical. Does requiure some acquired skill but you can look up except when in tree wells from snow etc.
To generalize:
1) Solid green tree, no observed hazards. Cut low. Most commercial cutters will have tree after tree like this. Particularly in second growth stands. I suspect that in Finland, to some degree, there are not the numerous snags that we have in our 'unhealthy forests' of the Western US.
2) Hazard tree, something has your attention. Rot, loose limbs, dead top, going to brush against neighboring trees etc. Cut at a comfortable height to look up and escape as cutting low also means slower escape.
There is a lot I don't know about falling.
But I'm going to say that I do know a fair bit about danger trees.
38 fire seasons.
There are also times where falling by chain saw is not an option.
Blis:
Go to one knee. This is for 'safe' trees. Your back it still vertical. Does requiure some acquired skill but you can look up except when in tree wells from snow etc.
To generalize:
1) Solid green tree, no observed hazards. Cut low. Most commercial cutters will have tree after tree like this. Particularly in second growth stands. I suspect that in Finland, to some degree, there are not the numerous snags that we have in our 'unhealthy forests' of the Western US.
2) Hazard tree, something has your attention. Rot, loose limbs, dead top, going to brush against neighboring trees etc. Cut at a comfortable height to look up and escape as cutting low also means slower escape.
There is a lot I don't know about falling.
But I'm going to say that I do know a fair bit about danger trees.
38 fire seasons.
There are also times where falling by chain saw is not an option.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Looking up and GOL
The only GOL - Open Face materials I am privy to are Tim Ard's eBook and what is on the net. Often that internet stuff is from associated groups that have adapted to GOL techniques.
I've asked before. Can anyone put forth some quotes from the GOL world here?
1) Looking up throughout the felling of danger trees is needed.
2) Emphasis on becoming ambidextrous so that the danger side of some trees can be avoided. Provided a long bar is available.
John, I think a good portion of this comes from its Scandinavian roots.
Green second growth and not many snags means a few things.
Smaller trees, solid timber and less hazards.
It is logical that they would have a reduced emphasis on looking up, quicker escapes, cutting from either side and longer bars.
It is not logical that what works in any one part of the world should be mandated elsewhere.
Tonight I'll go through Tim Ard’s eBook. It’s on CD and easy to search and I'll post what he has.
The only GOL - Open Face materials I am privy to are Tim Ard's eBook and what is on the net. Often that internet stuff is from associated groups that have adapted to GOL techniques.
I've asked before. Can anyone put forth some quotes from the GOL world here?
1) Looking up throughout the felling of danger trees is needed.
2) Emphasis on becoming ambidextrous so that the danger side of some trees can be avoided. Provided a long bar is available.
John, I think a good portion of this comes from its Scandinavian roots.
Green second growth and not many snags means a few things.
Smaller trees, solid timber and less hazards.
It is logical that they would have a reduced emphasis on looking up, quicker escapes, cutting from either side and longer bars.
It is not logical that what works in any one part of the world should be mandated elsewhere.
Tonight I'll go through Tim Ard’s eBook. It’s on CD and easy to search and I'll post what he has.
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