tek9tim
ArboristSite Guru
:deadhorse: If you're dealing with wood in which the hinge will hold all the way to the ground. And if you don't have the tree going where you want it by the time it's 45 degrees into its fall, you're screwed anyhow.
Saw techniques and cutting/felling safety
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:deadhorse: If you're dealing with wood in which the hinge will hold all the way to the ground. And if you don't have the tree going where you want it by the time it's 45 degrees into its fall, you're screwed anyhow.
joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
In my opinion, any one making a bore cut with a trip on anything but a heavy forward leaner, especially any one wedging a heavy forward leaner before they trip the strap should back cut a little higher than the bottom of the face.
That being said, I think most people give the stump shot cut to much credit for protection. The only thing that can cause the butt to come backwards is gravity or tension in the limbs or trunk of the tree falling and or a tree it hits while falling.
When this happens the butt often moves to the side of the stump and slides back past the stump. When it does stay on top of the stump it often slides over the small step left from a higher back cut.
Here is pics of tension and gravity induced stump shot on a small tree, before and after.
That being said, I think most people give the stump shot cut to much credit for protection. The only thing that can cause the butt to come backwards is gravity or tension in the limbs or trunk of the tree falling and or a tree it hits while falling.
When this happens the butt often moves to the side of the stump and slides back past the stump. When it does stay on top of the stump it often slides over the small step left from a higher back cut.
Here is pics of tension and gravity induced stump shot on a small tree, before and after.
joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tec9tim, You are absolutly right. once the tree is commited to the direction at 45 degrees not much can be done that will have a favorable effect.
chainsawworld
ArboristSite Guru
okay. now that i have stirred the bowl. has anyone arguing with me ever been trained by a pro? this includes GOL. Pro CUTS or what ever? marty
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Stick to the topic. We are talking about the backcut being higher or lower than the undercut and the effect of the holding wood. The backcut is to be higher, and like Tec9 and Joe say, if the tree is over 45 degrees, its done. What do you mean by pro, someone who makes money teaching or someone who makes money falling? I have been shown things by the latter, that means something to me. Cheers, Jim
BC_Logger
ArboristSite Guru
so I make money falling does that mean im semi pro because I dont teach it :monkey:
First of all I'm not arguing with you...I just need to be clearer on what you're trying to tell us. I believe I have a question pending...see Post #53.
As far as being trained by a professional...I sure was. I had three uncles that were fallers.I started out knocking wedges and packing tools for them and moved up from there. They worked old growth Redwood and when that played out they moved on to fir and cedar and pine and the rest of the stuff we have out in this part of the country. Did they have any degrees or certificates or letters of accreditation? Hell, they could barely read and write. But they could cut timber. And they did. All their lives. They all retired and died in bed. And for all those years they put timber on the ground every day they could work. They worked safely and effeciently and the stuff they taught me I've never been able to find in any fancy book...anywhere. Or from any self-professed chainsaw expert that makes up for real-world ability with a bunch of bluff and terminology that,when examined closely,doesn't mean a damn thing.
I think you're well intentioned but I don't think a lot of what you're trying to say has much bearing out here on the left coast.
Also, please answer my question in Post #53. Thanks Bob
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forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
Chainsawworld, I didn't think I was arguing with you.
My credintials start when I was 15 years old my granddad gave me my first pro saw, a dang old Mac 550, and took me to cut a tree in his friends yard.
He was an old school ax and crosscut timber faller. He tried to teach me, but being young and dumb and having modern technology available I was very hard to teach.
When I came to the west coast I had to relearn how to cut trees.
Wow, come to find out the old timers knew everything there is to know today about cutting trees, except bore cuts (hard to do with an ax or cross cut).
So my training started with my granddad, was followed by all kinds of schools classes and certifications, and still continues by old school west coast timber fallers.
One of my favorite things to do is sit at the local watering hole and take turns buying beverages with an older (than me) timber faller, who happens to be a good friend, and pick his brain. When I get a new trick out of him, he will say "dammit I don't tell anyone my secrets". But then he smiles and tells me another.
You can't get the stuff I have got from the old timers in a class. Believe me I tried.
On the other hand the classes are better than no training at all.
My credintials start when I was 15 years old my granddad gave me my first pro saw, a dang old Mac 550, and took me to cut a tree in his friends yard.
He was an old school ax and crosscut timber faller. He tried to teach me, but being young and dumb and having modern technology available I was very hard to teach.
When I came to the west coast I had to relearn how to cut trees.
Wow, come to find out the old timers knew everything there is to know today about cutting trees, except bore cuts (hard to do with an ax or cross cut).
So my training started with my granddad, was followed by all kinds of schools classes and certifications, and still continues by old school west coast timber fallers.
One of my favorite things to do is sit at the local watering hole and take turns buying beverages with an older (than me) timber faller, who happens to be a good friend, and pick his brain. When I get a new trick out of him, he will say "dammit I don't tell anyone my secrets". But then he smiles and tells me another.
You can't get the stuff I have got from the old timers in a class. Believe me I tried.
On the other hand the classes are better than no training at all.
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Some good interesting posts here.
Another question here for anyone that knows. How many people take the training that are completly green and are not likely to be other than an occasional faller? Or do you get to know other people in the class.
Another question here for anyone that knows. How many people take the training that are completly green and are not likely to be other than an occasional faller? Or do you get to know other people in the class.
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
Get over yourself...
Your upstate NY "timber" has nothing on West Side TIMBER. I learned how to fall trees from 2 of the best men that ever packed a saw in the woods. My Grandfather, and an old crew boss that worked right along side the knot bumpers, fallers, climbers, and riggers. This man was 60 when I was 17 and I could not keep up with him chasin' chokers all day. I'm still not worthy to pack their lunches for them.
I learned the ins and outs of holding wood, how to use a dutchman to your advantage, how to properly drive wedges, how to use a BIG saws safely, how to check the lay so as to not damage timber when it falls, etc. etc. etc.... This guy was a pro. He has long since passed away. It was a sad day to see him go.
My Gramps had the best "feel" for a saw in a tree I ever witnessed. Very precise and made cuts in old growth, and BIG second growth timber that were perfect everytime... you see because that was pride in the job. It was an even sadder day when my Gramps passed too. Hell these guys were trained with misery whips and some of the first "newfangled power saws" that were made.
I ain't the best cutter... I'll be the first to admit that. But you ask me if I have an "formal" training??? You damn right I do!
Whatever dude... rant over.
Gary
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PA Plumber
Addicted to ArboristSite
I haven't had any felling education, other than this site, trying to make out what's in the books, and a couple of loggers giving me some tips. It sure seems like the tips go a lot further for me that 20 hours of reading.
My dad fell a lot of trees for firewood, but my memories are of him dropping the saw and running like crazy from trees doing all sorts of things. I didn't know it then, but it's a wonder we didn't get killed. He and my uncle dropped a tree on me one day and the branches fell down around me. You bet it hurt and it knocked me to the ground.
I think a course would be a big benefit, but I would sure rather follow a faller around a few days instead.
My dad fell a lot of trees for firewood, but my memories are of him dropping the saw and running like crazy from trees doing all sorts of things. I didn't know it then, but it's a wonder we didn't get killed. He and my uncle dropped a tree on me one day and the branches fell down around me. You bet it hurt and it knocked me to the ground.
I think a course would be a big benefit, but I would sure rather follow a faller around a few days instead.
tek9tim
ArboristSite Guru
Grew up in logging country, started running saw when I was 12, taught by loggers. When I was 18 I started with the Forest Service, got put through a formal course taught by an old logger, recertified every year since by people with decades of experience felling trees. Up until this last year (when I became a supervisor), I've been a sawyer on a 20 man initial attack handcrew, running saw almost every day all summer long, with many 14 day assignments felling hazard trees 16 hours a day. For the last 2 years I've instructed S-212 to new sawyers. Yeah I'm young. But for the last 7 years saws and felling trees have been my life. I've had the good fortune to work with some old timers and have learned a ton in the short time I've been cutting. In short, yes I was trained by a professional, and yes I am a professional that trains.
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
Great post Tim!
BTW... when did ya move over to ID??? Weren't you in Leavenworth for awhile???
Gary
tek9tim
ArboristSite Guru
I got a permenant seasonal job over here last year. I had been in Leavenworth for about 3 years. I spent this last winter (and plan to spend next) up there. Love the Cascades.
forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
tim
sounds like some great experience you've gotten over the years
i'd give anything to have that kind of experience
and a truck
can't get any work with a damn car
headed to east texas soon
so maybe i could hook up with some pro logger
out there, get some hands-on time in
while finishing up school
sounds like some great experience you've gotten over the years
i'd give anything to have that kind of experience
and a truck
can't get any work with a damn car
headed to east texas soon
so maybe i could hook up with some pro logger
out there, get some hands-on time in
while finishing up school
Hey this is getting better all the time. Since everyone is giving their "qualifications" here's mine.
Grew up in cornfield country and hardly remember ever seeing a chainsaw. My brother and I moved to W. Washington and lied to Weyerhaeuser about being experienced loggers. Luckily it was a woman that interviewed us. Worked on the rigging from 76 to 79 in Snoqualmie when Wey. had 17 sides going out of there. Bought a 045 and started cutting shake bolts during winter shut down.
Moved to S.E. Alaska in 79. Still hi-lead logging till 88. Till then I had mostly just firewood, landing and shake cutting experience. In Ak. I was always around fallers but I never really fell timber till 88. Went to falling a couple of years after I met my wife. We bought a 42' liveaboard and "tramped" from Ketchikan to Juneau for the next seven years. I have worked in 12 or 15 logging camps and have been around hundreds of fallers from all over the northwest.
In Alaska it is all single jacking where you work by yourself, but stay in hearing range of your partner who is in the next strip. Its was all virgin old growth and like a lot of the nw usually steep ground.
Moved to central Arkansas in 94 and have fell (mostly SYP sawtimber) for skidders, mules or tractors since then. Alaska is a whole 'nother world compared to here as far as falling timber. Its kind of like working in a city park around here. Isnt that what you call gravy?
Grew up in cornfield country and hardly remember ever seeing a chainsaw. My brother and I moved to W. Washington and lied to Weyerhaeuser about being experienced loggers. Luckily it was a woman that interviewed us. Worked on the rigging from 76 to 79 in Snoqualmie when Wey. had 17 sides going out of there. Bought a 045 and started cutting shake bolts during winter shut down.
Moved to S.E. Alaska in 79. Still hi-lead logging till 88. Till then I had mostly just firewood, landing and shake cutting experience. In Ak. I was always around fallers but I never really fell timber till 88. Went to falling a couple of years after I met my wife. We bought a 42' liveaboard and "tramped" from Ketchikan to Juneau for the next seven years. I have worked in 12 or 15 logging camps and have been around hundreds of fallers from all over the northwest.
In Alaska it is all single jacking where you work by yourself, but stay in hearing range of your partner who is in the next strip. Its was all virgin old growth and like a lot of the nw usually steep ground.
Moved to central Arkansas in 94 and have fell (mostly SYP sawtimber) for skidders, mules or tractors since then. Alaska is a whole 'nother world compared to here as far as falling timber. Its kind of like working in a city park around here. Isnt that what you call gravy?
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Gas, Tim, John...great posts. Hey John...were the mosquitos bigger in Alaska than Arkansas...or just meaner? I never worked up there but a friend of mine said that the mosquitoes carried port and starboard running lights so the float planes would get out of their way.
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:hmm3grin2orange: Yea Bob they were fair size. The noseeums and white socks were the worst for me tho.
To add to my post, after falling for seven years I just thought of myself as barely average compared to the ave. faller there.
Compared to the average faller here I am a lot smaller, dont weight near as much, different color and aint worth near as much. And nowhere near as fast.:hmm3grin2orange:
To add to my post, after falling for seven years I just thought of myself as barely average compared to the ave. faller there.
Compared to the average faller here I am a lot smaller, dont weight near as much, different color and aint worth near as much. And nowhere near as fast.:hmm3grin2orange:
stihl 440
Addicted to ArboristSite
yup!
That is how I learned, those old time loggers are the best to learn from. Perfect post gary!
Get over yourself...
Your upstate NY "timber" has nothing on West Side TIMBER. I learned how to fall trees from 2 of the best men that ever packed a saw in the woods. My Grandfather, and an old crew boss that worked right along side the knot bumpers, fallers, climbers, and riggers. This man was 60 when I was 17 and I could not keep up with him chasin' chokers all day. I'm still not worthy to pack their lunches for them.
I learned the ins and outs of holding wood, how to use a dutchman to your advantage, how to properly drive wedges, how to use a BIG saws safely, how to check the lay so as to not damage timber when it falls, etc. etc. etc.... This guy was a pro. He has long since passed away. It was a sad day to see him go.
My Gramps had the best "feel" for a saw in a tree I ever witnessed. Very precise and made cuts in old growth, and BIG second growth timber that were perfect everytime... you see because that was pride in the job. It was an even sadder day when my Gramps passed too. Hell these guys were trained with misery whips and some of the first "newfangled power saws" that were made.
I ain't the best cutter... I'll be the first to admit that. But you ask me if I have an "formal" training??? You damn right I do!
Whatever dude... rant over.
Gary
That is how I learned, those old time loggers are the best to learn from. Perfect post gary!
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