Serious about performance, why aren't you running square ground?

[M.R.]

+1.

That and the fact that an Oregon 511A is a lot cheaper than a Silvey.

About a decade or so ago, I tried a 100' roll of the oregon square ground from Bailey's & liked it except for having to pull a few splinters out of my hide every now and then. Touched them up in the woods with a square [gooffy] file. Had a buddy with a square grinder, he changed the angles somewhat, Man Alive they would cut, but throw even wickeder splinters -after the toes curling up and charlie-horsing so hard, -- when more than one got in this ones sack among other places, it got to be an easy choice to round file & grind with a belsaw 8800.

 

[klickitatsacket]

square grind chissel is great if you have clean wood. I personally prefer chisel round filed. It seems to have a good compromise between sharpness and durability. Most people who use saws are cutting wood that is already down and in dirty condition and square ground is not the best choice for them. Now when it comes to hopping up your saw it doesn't matter if you are running the sharpest or not as you will still have better performance. I am not saying that more power is a substitute for good chain; but I am saying that some times durability of cutting edge with more power will get more done at the end of the day. It's what works best for you.

 

[timberwolf]

One thing, when the square chain gets dulled, it stops cutting period, push it all you want. With round chain at least you can in most cases finish off what your doing before addressing the chain.

 

[B_Turner]

square grind chissel is great if you have clean wood. I personally prefer chisel round filed. It seems to have a good compromise between sharpness and durability. Most people who use saws are cutting wood that is already down and in dirty condition and square ground is not the best choice for them. Now when it comes to hopping up your saw it doesn't matter if you are running the sharpest or not as you will still have better performance. I am not saying that more power is a substitute for good chain; but I am saying that some times durability of cutting edge with more power will get more done at the end of the day. It's what works best for you.

For me I find the difference in durability between square (depending on the angles of course) and round ground in identical chisel chain generally overstated, and performance gains huge (strictly talking chisel - not semi chisel). I have run my stock saws with square ground against muffler modded same saws with round, and so far have always come out on top (largish wood). To me the main difference between the round and square grind is how sharp the side of the cutter is, and find the difference in durability somewhat overrated. I've spend days at a time switching back and forth between round ground and square ground in the same wood.

The biggest difference I find in durability between the grinds is that if you rock them, the square point can flatten a little more because it has less support. I will say I find Stihl to hold up a bit better square than Oregon, though.

And I am not always cutting clean wood. BUt when I'm cutting dirty wood that is causing me grief I go right to semi chisel.

I respect your opinion, but the choice of square and semi-chisel is what works for me.

 

[Lakeside53]

One thing, when the square chain gets dulled, it stops cutting period, push it all you want. With round chain at least you can in most cases finish off what your doing before addressing the chain.

Yep - I'm with you on this one... I notice a really big difference when milling - I have used both square ground chisel, round ground chisel and semi-chisel mill chains. The square starts off much faster, but within a slice of a big board (half tank continuous cutting - the round chisel not as fast but blunts at the same rate) the Semi chisel is cutting faster and lasts 3-4 times as long before sharpening. O.k, so milling is tough, but it's another data point.

In clean wood for conventional cutting, square is my favorite though... but one touch on something bad, and it's done for.

 

[Woodie]

Does anyone know of any square-grind in .058 guage for us guys running Jonnsies? Neither Stihl nor Oregon seem to make it, and Carlton doesn't make square-ground at all.

 

[B_Turner]

Yep - I'm with you on this one... I notice a really big difference when milling - I have used both square ground chisel, round ground chisel and semi-chisel mill chains. The square starts off much faster, but within a slice of a big board (half tank continuous cutting - the round chisel not as fast but blunts at the same rate) the Semi chisel is cutting faster and lasts 3-4 times as long before sharpening. O.k, so milling is tough, but it's another data point.

In clean wood for conventional cutting, square is my favorite though... but one touch on something bad, and it's done for.

Andy if I read this correctly you are citing a similar blunt rate between the square and round chisel. Naturally semi chisel blunts much slower, agreed.

And like you alude, milling endgrain is pretty brutal on chains. Peels up a layer of shaving while removing the bundle of tubes cutting from the side.

And I'll throw into the mix that the square ground cutter is much more efficient for sidegrain cutting (noodles). Cutter shaped alot like a dado or rabbet plane which was designed exactly for that cut.

 

[bwalker]

Square chain as it comes form the factory isnt much of a improvement over round filed chain and in fact my round filed chain is faster than Stihl square ground off the roll.. To file a square chain to make it perform better takes more skill/knowledge than most have and a square grinder cost up to and over $1000. Square chain also becomes dull faster when cutting clean hardwoods out here in the east, not to menatine how fast it goes downhill when any dirt is encountered. It also is not sold at local saws shops so its a special order thing.
I have never met a logger or heard of one using square ground in my area. Most do not even know what it is.

 

[B_Turner]

Square chain as it comes form the factory isnt much of a improvement over round filed chain and in fact my round filed chain is faster than Stihl square ground off the roll.. To file a square chain to make it perform better takes more skill/knowledge than most have and a square grinder cost up to and over $1000. Square chain also becomes dull faster when cutting clean hardwoods out here in the east, not to menatine how fast it goes downhill when any dirt is encountered. It also is not sold at local saws shops so its a special order thing.
I have never met a logger or heard of one using square ground in my area. Most do not even know what it is.

And I argue (unsuccessfully I might add) that I don't find the difference in durability between round ground and square ground chisel chain (talking same chain) as great as generally believed while performance gains are considerable. Naturally semi-chisel (round) is much more durable.

Sharpening with the ProSHarp is easy, although it does cost around 2k. In terms of someone not ever hearing of square, ask a longtime Stihl logger or a Husky logger if they've used the other brand, and generally they will say they only used what they were raised on. No one much out here has heard of Dolmar, but that is not to say they don't run strong.

Not meaning a jab, just relating my own experience with square. Prefer it to round chisel, and use semi chisel for dirty stuff. Those loggers I have talked to here in the NW that have a square grinder strongly prefer it. And I think if more non logger folks had a good square grinder they might too.

 

[bwalker]

I am sure the loggers love it out there as the wood they are cutting is butter soft. Sort of like cutting white pine here. Anysaw/chain feels badd azz in white pine. Put it in a big Sugar Maple, White Oak, or Beech and its a differant story.
Chin like any thing else needs to be matched to the conditions and Square just doesnt cut it out here.
BTW my durabilty comment is based on comparing new loops of stihl RS. One square and one round.

 

[B_Turner]

I am sure the loggers love it out there as the wood they are cutting is butter soft. Sort of like cutting white pine here. Anysaw/chain feels badd azz in white pine. Put it in a big Sugar Maple, White Oak, or Beech and its a differant story.
Chin like any thing else needs to be matched to the conditions and Square just doesnt cut it out here.
BTW my durabilty comment is based on comparing new loops of stihl RS. One square and one round.

I cut alot of oak, beech, locust etc (city trees) which are not butter soft so I am certainly not limited in my comparison to something like doug fir which is agree very soft. In doug fir or pine the square issue is a no brainer.

 

[computeruser]

Does anyone know of any square-grind in .058 guage for us guys running Jonnsies? Neither Stihl nor Oregon seem to make it, and Carlton doesn't make square-ground at all.

If not, just swap bars.

 

[bwalker]

I cut alot of oak, beech, locust etc (city trees) so I am certainly not limited in my comparison to something like doug fir which is agree very soft.

That are grown in the Seattle area and thus are much softer than what I am dealing with.

 

[Woodie]

If not, just swap bars.

I don't have to swap the rim/hub/sprocket/thingy too?

 

[SWE#Kipp]

I don't have to swap the rim/hub/sprocket/thingy too?

nope

 

[MAG58]

atleast over here they dont sell full chisel square nor full chisel... those :censored:

My new Jonsered 2171 have Oregon chisel, so here in Norway we can get it.

 

[John Ellison]

I'm with you B Turner, mine is just a Razor Sharp II that I have had since 88, but I would hate to be without it.
Believe I would rather run sq ground chain on an average saw than a hot saw with the average round file job.
I cut mostly softwood but last summer was in hardwood for a few months. My ground chains will usually last 4 to 6 hrs in the pine but in oak and hickory sometimes I had to change every tank of fuel. Black oak and hickory bark are bad. I carried a file with me (usually dont in pine) and would touch up when needed until it was time for a fresh chain.
If you change chains a lot you can do it pretty fast and square filing does not take any longer than round if you do it enough, it is just different. In some hardwoods it might not be worth it, I dont know.

 

[drmiller100]

the loggers i talked to run square when falling. they want the fastest possible cuts, adnd danger of dirt is minimal.

everyone else ran semi chisel. limbers, bucking it up, etc. they can touch up the chain if need be.

 

[SmokinDodge]

Wait until you try one fresh off the grinder. It will change one's idea of what sharp is.

Anyone that considers themselves serious about performance and hasn't tried well sharpened square (Oregon CL out of the box needs resharpening first) needs to try it. Be square or not be there. Maybe that will be my next sig.

BTurner your not the first one I've heard say this about out of the box chain. Could you enlighten those of us that are just starting on our square grind adventure what to address on a new chain?

 

[Lakeside53]

Bill - what do you think of Stihl Suare "out if the box" - I find it really sharp... and well formed.