Serious about performance, why aren't you running square ground?

[Tree Sling'r]

I never run a chain off my roll. I first make them - knock down my rakers on my Silvey raker machine then grind. I am close to the angles on the factory grind - but they suck as far as sharpness.

All this hardwood stuff about east coast and west coast is not all accurate. And if you know how to grind for what you are cutting your stay sharp ability is just as good if not better than any other method.
Tan oak, black oak, mahogany and live oak are some of the hardest woods around and we have them here. Just because its on the west coast does not mean its soft.
There is no doubt you fellas on the east side have some harder wood - but you change angles on you chain to accomodate what you are cutting. I could set my grinder up for that stuff and have a stay sharp abilty along with speed that will match any other method.

 

[bwalker]

Bill - what do you think of Stihl Suare "out if the box" - I find it really sharp... and well formed.

I find it slower than my hand filed round RS.

 

[Lakeside53]

I find it slower than my hand filed round RS.

You might in your woods, but my question was just about the sharpness of the square.

 

[Greenthorn]

Help, now I don't know which chains to use!
I prefer square ground full chisel (IMHO), but for me I'm
just cutting for firewood.
Could ya all decide which is better and make my mind up for me.

 

[B_Turner]

Bill - what do you think of Stihl Suare "out if the box" - I find it really sharp... and well formed.

Recently I went out to the shop and checked two different reels of Stihl square chain and several loops of brand new Oregon square, both CL and CLX.

How they looked matched my cutting impressions and the way I have remembered it looking in the past. The Stihl square (RSLK and RSLFK) was pretty good, both with a decent edge and only the very occasional very slight side beak on the cutter (no biggie). Also the grinding marks are very fine with the Stihl. With Stihls I run the chain new, although it cuts a better once I resharpen. But unlike some folks, I feel they typically cut better out the box than freshly round ground chains.

The Oregons do not have nearly as nice an edge out of the box, and the grind marks are more coarse (although I am not sure how much that matters). A definite candle. I have been told Oregon is currently addressing this issue of how "blunt" the Orgeon chain is new and that in 5 months this will be much better. Don't know what that means. With the Oregon I definitely have to sharpen it first before I run it.

A little while ago I bought a loop of Oregon CL and a loop of CLX to compare more rigorously. I will soon take pictures of both Oregons and the Stihl RSLK out of the box so you won't have to take my word for it. I need to enlist a friend to also time me comparing times for all three chains cutting pancakes both out of the box and sharpened once.

That has been my observation, mileage may vary. I will say that I believe the Stihl chain is slightly tougher to damage, although I try to stop using a chain as soon as it loses it's edge so sharpening is quick and no wasteful.

One thing about running square ground chain, if you keep using it while its dull, it does beat the point back a little more than round ground. But if you swap chains once dull, a quick touch on the grinder puts it back quickly. In fact, I find square chains even quicker to grind than round ones, both Silvies.

To anyone wanting to run square chain, I sharpen wood cutting tools by hand all day and I know I personally would be hard pressed to do a reasonable and timely sharpening job without a grinder with square chain. So I understand for most folks the cost of the grinder makes changing to square not cost effective due to the generally high price of square grinders.

 

[B_Turner]

BTurner your not the first one I've heard say this about out of the box chain. Could you enlighten those of us that are just starting on our square grind adventure what to address on a new chain?

Madsens has a good discussion of sharpening square both in their catalog and website (which is down). Alot better than I could tell it. Although I feel the square cutter (once you are familiar with it) is more intuitive to look at and evaulate for sharpness/crispness. For example with the Oregon CL many of the edges are simply not ground back all the way. Not merely beat up in handling, I think. A rep once told me that is because they assume all pros will resharpen a chain before using. I think that is silly, as I want to be able to use a chain right off the reel. In fact Carlton says they sharpen their cutters after on the chain for that out of box sharpness whereas I believe both Stihl and Oregon sharpen cuttes before assembly.

The day I bought my ProSharp, Sam Madsen spent about 1 1/2 hours with me showing me grinders and giving me pointers about sharpening square. With that long lesson, I was grinding pretty successful square chains the first night. I suggest a person really does need a lesson from someone if you've not done it before (I had not at that time). It's a bit of a different animal but the ProSharp makes it easy. Except when it comes time to pay off the CreditCard

One thing I had to focus on especially at first is that the wheel needs to be dressed with the thin edge wide enough to make a nice cutter side, but not so thick that it really cuts the chain body. Past that, it is mostly watching and making sure the corner of the wheel meets the cutter in the front corner.

 

[046]

sure wish there's an affordable square chain grinder..

 

[B_Turner]

Bill - what do you think of Stihl Suare "out if the box" - I find it really sharp... and well formed.

I find it slower than my hand filed round RS.

Maybe it's my filing, but I find Stihl (not Oregon, though) square sharper out of the box than my round. I would enjoy some timings here to test this out with Ben's chain as he may be a better filer than me. Need an impartial third party and a loop of each chain that has been sharpend, but not doctored. I'd volunteer a loop of 33RSLK fresh off the reel for the test. Wood size needs to be at least say 12 inches or more for a good test. I don't care what kind of wood.

The filed chain should be comparable Stihl chain (RS) and not sharpened too many times so that the cutter has not been shortened much (narrower and therefore might cut a little faster).

What do you think, anyone?

Edit 12/13 : I got to thinking about disparaties in experiences with how sharp new chain is. Don't know if it is relevant, but I am talking about chain I roll off a new reel myself. Some folks are talking about loops in a box. I don't know how much bashing around loops get during all the handling and whether or not that can effect their sharpness to the degree observed. Just a thought...

 

[Reddog]

Square chain also becomes dull faster when cutting clean hardwoods out here in the east, not to mention how fast it goes downhill when any dirt is encountered. It also is not sold at local saws shops so its a special order thing.
I have never met a logger or heard of one using square ground in my area. Most do not even know what it is.

I have to agree with Ben. The sugar maple seems to pull dirt into it with the sap flow.
Back in the late 70's a couple saw shops in the iron county are of mi. Were selling square, Most of the guys would run it and then sharpen to round. They did not see big differences between the two. But felt the square lost its edge quicker in the hardwood. So stuck to round.
The one thing I like with the square is how smooth it cuts.

 

[B_Turner]

They did not see big differences between the two.

If anyone is up for the beforementioned test, then maybe we should add a freshly sharpened square chain into the mix. Relative durability can be argued, but a difference in performance between identical chains sharpened square and round should be clear.

 

[Freakingstang]

I found Madsen's carriers square 6 sided bevel files in good quality as the stihl square files were. I also tried woodsman pro square files and wouldn't recommend them for anything but a raker file IMO.

A very expensive raker file at that... I'm glad I waited for 3 months for them being on backorder...Terrible, cheaply made file.

what brand are the ones from madsens that you like Kevin?





I run square filed chain in the woods when the conditions are right. I run them on chains 24" and shorter. I leave the longer chains round. I don't have THAT much time to spend hand filing chains...LOL. I prefer the Stihl swuare ground chain over the oregon. Seems the Stilh is more forgiving and longer lasting edge. It is just harder material to hand file.

 

[Crofter]

Round chisel chain has a lot of hook, while a square chisel will have from none to slight. A slightly dull round chain will still pull itself down into the wood and penetrate well; the square chain just wont self feed the same way if it is dull. You can grind or file with more hook on the square to make it a bit better in this respect. Square ground just is not as practical for cutting skidded or dirty wood. The files, stones, grinders, any which way, simply cost more. Sure has a lot more speed potential though.

Cleaning out the gullet right down to level with the tie straps will make a big difference on a new square chain; that and the fact that most users will choose less blunt angles is what can make a big difference in the first resharpening of out of the box sqare chain. Ken Dunn~KDHotsaw made a good test of new round and square chain speed, resharpend and also same chain converted. It is a way back in the archives.

 

[B_Turner]

Round chisel chain has a lot of hook, while a square chisel will have from none to slight. A slightly dull round chain will still pull itself down into the wood and penetrate well; the square chain just wont self feed the same way if it is dull. You can grind or file with more hook on the square to make it a bit better in this respect. Square ground just is not as practical for cutting skidded or dirty wood. The files, stones, grinders, any which way, simply cost more. Sure has a lot more speed potential though.

Cleaning out the gullet right down to level with the tie straps will make a big difference on a new square chain; that and the fact that most users will choose less blunt angles is what can make a big difference in the first resharpening of out of the box sqare chain. Ken Dunn~KDHotsaw made a good test of new round and square chain speed, resharpend and also same chain converted. It is a way back in the archives.

Anyone able to help me with a search to find this archived thread?

 

[Crofter]

Anyone able to help me with a search to find this archived thread?

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=7363

Had to do some puzzling to remember what it was posted under.

 

[B_Turner]

Crofter sent me a PM that I thougt I'd post (he said okay). It makes sense to me to soften the thin bottom edge (by hand) to alleviate the issue of cutting into the straps. Plus by dressing the stone there you are ensuring that the stone is true there and is not cutting the strap any deeper than necessary. I believe cutting the straps alittle is no big deal, but why cut farther than necessary.

I noticed you mention the width of the stone to cut the side cutter and not cut into the tie straps. A little trick I learned is to take a dressing block or piece of an old stone and put quite a radius on the bottom edge of the wheel. Just do it free hand. That removes the sharp edge that is what hits the tie strap. The radius leaves a softer notch in the bottom of the gullet and actually seems to make it easier to blend in if or when you clean out the gullet with a round file. You may already be doing this but I find a 5/32 or 1/8 round file much nicer for cleaning the gullet without smacking to side or top cutter edges.

 

[B_Turner]

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=7363

Had to do some puzzling to remember what it was posted under.

The meat of the post was #22 with Carlton and #45 using Oregon. He reported Oregon as faster than Carlton. His bottom line was he timed reground round was faster than factory square.

Faster yet with reground square.

I don't know if his round ground was more radical than typical angles, but he did say his square grinder is set up with more radical angles than either factory chain or typical grinding angles.

I am still psyched for an impartial timings of Stihl factory square and a bwalker round filed chain that has been filed his usual way (not tweaked for the timings). And a new Stihl square that was merely touched up at roughly the same conservative factory angles, which is what I run for a good combination of durability and performance.

 

[rupedoggy]

Originally Posted by bwalker
I find it slower than my hand filed round RS.

Check the bottom of your shoe for smelly stuff Ben. I think you stepped in it! Mike

 

[Reddog]

If anyone is up for the beforementioned test, then maybe we should add a freshly sharpened square chain into the mix. Relative durability can be argued, but a difference in performance between identical chains sharpened square and round should be clear.

I keep square around for when I have a lot of plunge cutting. But I still file sharpen. Can't bring myself to spend the money for a square grinder.

 

[Crofter]

The Carlton version of chisel chain in either round or square has a very definite radius to the corner. This tends to make it slightly less than the fastest chain going. It also makes it just a bit tougher in dirty wood. Oregon is much crisper at the corner and Stihl is very sharply cornered. I understand Carlton is no longer putting out the square ground chain but it is no trick at all for someone to regrind or file it. A lot of speed claims are made that need closer examination because lots of things can influence it. Your square grind may not be anywhere near what someone else is doing;same goes for the round filed chain. How about raker settings and what sprocket is being used. Also evidence about how long a certain thing stayed sharp. I have hit bark inclusions around knots deep in a tree that must have been full of old sand or mud. Dull your saw in a blink; other times you really can cut for two or three hours without needing a touch up. Too easy to have your experience mesh with some preformed conclusion or be skewed by some factor you overlook.

 

[Lakeside53]

Too easy to have your experience mesh with some preformed conclusion or be skewed by some factor you overlook.

So true.. I should use that for my signature line... although my current one is pretty close