MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Well said there, Ralph.
So you can't do BOTH?
- Thread starter MasterBlaster
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Well said there, Ralph.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
For what it's worth, I trimmed a large Live Oak this morning, and I am working on two Water Oaks tomorrow. No TD's.
No guilt!
No guilt!
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
I would be willing to bet that beavers, bugs and vines kill more trees than we tree climbers do. Those three are only trying to make a living so why not us too? I have had to kill a lot of trees that I did not want to but it is part of the job. That is how I say it. Kill the tree, not removal or take down. It makes an impact on the home owners when they hear it. For the first time they have to look at the tree as a living thing.
pbtree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Actually...
When using the word work, I believe I work for the customer. It is their tree. It is their property. It is their money. It is only mine after I earn it.
I will always advise someone on what I feel is in the tree's best interest. That is one of the things I like about this industry - the trees.
But let's face it. If you refuse to perform the work an owner seeks/desires, then the only reward you get from the profession is no work.
Over time, by being professional and giving good advice, in the best interest of the tree(s), I hope to make a difference. I cannot however pretend to dictate to a property owner what they can or cannot do with their property. I can advise - but not dictate.
I hope that makes some sortta sense....
When using the word work, I believe I work for the customer. It is their tree. It is their property. It is their money. It is only mine after I earn it.
I will always advise someone on what I feel is in the tree's best interest. That is one of the things I like about this industry - the trees.
But let's face it. If you refuse to perform the work an owner seeks/desires, then the only reward you get from the profession is no work.
Over time, by being professional and giving good advice, in the best interest of the tree(s), I hope to make a difference. I cannot however pretend to dictate to a property owner what they can or cannot do with their property. I can advise - but not dictate.
I hope that makes some sortta sense....
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
After reading the responses here I realized that my ideas follow spiritual or philosophical lines. Certainly not normal business lines. Doing work and getting paid is work. Like I have said many times before, nothing wrong with that. AND...I'm not against doing takedowns. What bothers me is when a client wants a perfectly healthy, strong tree removed for a lame reason. Leaves, growing grass, getting the sawlog from a walnut, on and on. If I did those sort of jobs, to me, I would be working for blood money. To me, I don't like eating blood money. I've told people that they had no right to take trees down even if they did own the dirt they grew on. I've never gotten into an arguement with them and I've also gotten a few good clients because they realized that I was working for the trees, not them. Not too often that contractors will walk away from money because of a deep spiritual feeling.
Go and read through this thread:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14990
Now, if a client wanted you to cut off the callus collars because they didn't like the look of the knobs, would you? If if meant getting the job, would you tell them NO because it doesn't follow currently accepted professional practices? Doing work that is outside of accepted professional practices is what, unethical, hack work, mercenary...?
Do what you need to to put money in your pocket. But realize the implications of your choices.
Tom
Go and read through this thread:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14990
Now, if a client wanted you to cut off the callus collars because they didn't like the look of the knobs, would you? If if meant getting the job, would you tell them NO because it doesn't follow currently accepted professional practices? Doing work that is outside of accepted professional practices is what, unethical, hack work, mercenary...?
Do what you need to to put money in your pocket. But realize the implications of your choices.
Tom
wiley_p
ArboristSite Guru
i wish I was as fortunate as you Tom, I bust my ass 6 days a week, 51 weeks a year. The amount of knowledge I have now or am gaining means little, my experience means little to anyone but me. If I had a position such as yours I could wax spiritual too. the bottom line is I am in competion with a bunch of hacks, a few good urban types and a whole lot of people who obviously draw their income from other sources because judging by the prices they charge they must feel philosophical and spiritual too, just wish I was always competing with proper tree care. Could be a regional thing I suppose. Never worked east of the Rockies in this feild. So there bub, still get upset when folks try to cut and dry this.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wiley,
I'm not speaking from my present job position. When I was in Minneapolis running Canopy Tree Care I was able to make those decisions.
Sure, it meant missing some jobs but I built up a clientele who would make up the slack. During the days that I would do anything for money, I didn't have any more money. In fact, work came harder for me. Once I changed my outlook work got more fun and much more profitable too.
What I'm trying to say here is that you might try approaching a needless takedown or poor quality expectations by the customer a little differently. Let them know that what they want doesn't follow accepted practices in the profession. Let them know that arborculture is a profession not a trade. Those little, subtle clues make a big difference. Become a Certified Arborist, it makes a big difference to people.
Tom
I'm not speaking from my present job position. When I was in Minneapolis running Canopy Tree Care I was able to make those decisions.
Sure, it meant missing some jobs but I built up a clientele who would make up the slack. During the days that I would do anything for money, I didn't have any more money. In fact, work came harder for me. Once I changed my outlook work got more fun and much more profitable too.
What I'm trying to say here is that you might try approaching a needless takedown or poor quality expectations by the customer a little differently. Let them know that what they want doesn't follow accepted practices in the profession. Let them know that arborculture is a profession not a trade. Those little, subtle clues make a big difference. Become a Certified Arborist, it makes a big difference to people.
Tom
wiley_p
ArboristSite Guru
I am a certified arb, dosnt really carry any weight, have a forestry degree, still dosnt matter, partly because of the petty rift that is perpetuated by arbs/foresters. Run a tight program, have grossed over 3 million in work in 4 years( all for some fat cats) have left several outfits because I got sick of sloppy work and what I veiwed as poor forest practices. I now work onb my own supposedly, People tell me frequently I am worth x amount but noone has been willing to step up to the plate. I am insured, many of my competitors are not. I surpass the required CEU's for the ISA in the first year of cert. I am a firm beleiver in continuing education. The guy I sub for mostly now has come a long way yet I still have to turn work down they is a lot I refuse to do. so it would seem I am missing something on your advice to the path of enlightenment.
OutOnaLimb
ArboristSite Guru
"SAVE A TREE, EAT A BEAVER!!"
Kenn
Kenn
Husky372
ArboristSite Guru
tom i'm no arboriste but i dont see where you get off thinking you can tell a home/property owner what he/she should or should not do (advice yes tell no). if someone is sick of rakinging up leaves thats a pretty dam good reasons to take a tree down. i recently cut a bunch of oaks down around my house becuase i hate acorns. quess its a good thing i did it myself instead of trying to get some high falluting tree guy to come in and tell me that tree should stay becuase it has more of a rite to live than i have to kill it. sure hope you dont hunt or eat any meat or vegitables becuase your philosipy about trees is about the same as PETA's is about every other living thing. now i can understand some of what you say. but plan and simple you work for the client not the trees! no matter how much you may think you do, the client pays you, till the day that tree pays you you work for the client. me being a property owner if i want to kill my trees i wil, l if i want to disfigure them i will. no arboriste is going to come in here and tell me what i can and cannot do to my trees.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good work! Now you don't have all that nasty air and water purification going on, that horrible shade in the summer, those pesky songbirds making all that racket. I'll bet you're wondering why you waited so long!
Property rights are good. The rights of contractors to change idiocy into understanding are even better. Arborists (no "e") advance when they learn how to better preserve and increase tree value for the client instead of destroying it. Urban treecudders chew wood and digest it; little thought required.
"till the day that tree pays you you work for the client".
That day came long age; like Tom I'm clear that the trees are giving me the work. The client is a temporary holder of property. Like it says below, the trees were here first.
Husky372
ArboristSite Guru
you would be hard pressed to swing a cat and not hit a tree here so me cutting down what i want makes no differance. and i'll tell you this its my property and i will do with it as i see fit like it or not thats my business not some tree hugging arboriste.
jkrueger
ArboristSite Guru
Your the keeper, the care taker of the land. What is it with you none native, "I own da property." insensitivity.
Think I'll go puke,
Jack
OutOnaLimb
ArboristSite Guru
True, trees where here first, and in the past before the invention of chain saws, mother nature used pests, diseases and fires to keep the harmony of a healthy forest invironment. Because of the theory of just let the forest grow naturally, but still snub out every little wild fire that sparks up, or the idea that removing beetle infested pines is just another way to advocate commertial logging is just ridiculous. The fact of the matter is, that if we do nothing to manage our forests, whether they be urban or rural, mother nature is gonna do it for us. The only thing is when she does it its a whole heck of a lot more destructive, than removing the tree with precision and using the wood for lumber, pulp, mulch or fire wood.
Kenn
Kenn
Husky372
ArboristSite Guru
i bought it i own it. you own yours you do as you please i own mine i'll do as i please if you dont like tough becuase i sure as hell am not on this earth to please you or anyone else. but just for the record NH is 84% forested if i lived in the desert or on the plains where trees were scarse i probably would not be so cavilar about it but i dont and i am. just think all you tree lovers when i'm done i will have KILLED 1000s of trees, and i say good riddance becuase i want to be able to look out on my yard and see more than just trees. LIVE FREE OR DIE
wiley_p
ArboristSite Guru
I would'nt go so far as to say that Mother nature is more destructive than what we do, its just the randomness of it interferes with things that people put value on. Beetles reaching high numbers is just natures way of dealing with an even age stand, either stuff will blowdown or a fire will take care of it continuing the circle.
jkrueger
ArboristSite Guru
To obvious ...,
... look, David, to flame here about what most everyone here is all about in one way or another is an obvious statmentment looking for having a place to vent a rage you have, which is probably not even related to this subject! Dah!
Burn some tobacco as an offering to the trees and smdge your self,
Jack
... look, David, to flame here about what most everyone here is all about in one way or another is an obvious statmentment looking for having a place to vent a rage you have, which is probably not even related to this subject! Dah!
Burn some tobacco as an offering to the trees and smdge your self,
Jack
Husky372
ArboristSite Guru
i think that some of you seem to forget no matter how sophistcated we get as a society we are still part of nature. allways have been allways will be no matter how much we try to distance ourselfs.
