Sustainable logging

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Found this pretty interesting and have a little insight on it. My Father grew up just across the river from it. He picked black berries there and later on ferns. Pretty good example of how things used to be done. Not perfect but it turned out allright. In more recent years the best words I can call it are Hobby Farm. Nice if you can do it
 
Ah, there's another thing that's commonly overlooked. Diseases such as Laminated Root Rot weaken the trees from the roots, and the likes of Brown Top Rot makes trees prone to breakage in the wind. Note that both of these diseases are endemic to forests of a specific age class, that is, 50-100 years old. That's the exact age of the majority of timberlands harvested in the Pacific Northwest today.

A simultaneous strength and weakness of clear-cutting as a silvicultural treatment in 2nd-growth stands is that it captures the vigor of the young forest before the diseases have a chance to do major damage. Contrarily, it captures the entire genetic diversity of the stand before Natural Selection has a chance to produce disease-resistant individuals through trial and error. A longer rotation (say, 70 years) would only show increased losses to disease and to stem exclusion.

A well-planned thin program, however, can capture both mortality and survival, and repeated entries fine-tune the desired stand structure so that a given stand can be visited again and again. The most important thing to get away from is the idea that there's some kind of hurry -- that's Wall Street thought, and those guys don't work in the woods with us. Trees have their own pace about things.

Finally, I want to address the issue of "Clock-Resetting" events like fire or volcanism and their role in forests. Yes, these things do happen. In some places they happen relatively often, and the ecology adapts to accomodate it. In other places, such as the outer Pacific coast of the Northwest, they happen very infrequently, and the ecologies are poorly adapted to such events.

The time between major disturbance events is called a "Return Interval". Eastside Ponderosa stands have a fire return interval on the order of 5-10 years. Coastal Spruce and Hemlock stands? More like 1000. It takes centuries for the organic material in the top and middle layers of soil to grow thick and rich enough to support the kind of plant and animal diversity we take for granted. For every major disturbance event, it takes time to recover.

The most extreme examle locally is, of course, Mt St. Helens. Go walk around the Hummocks between Cold Creek and Johnson Ridge and have a look at the soil. It's thin, sterile, and fragile. That's because it's only been 30 years since it was nothing but a fine glass dust. Now walk around in the big timber near Staircase. Your soil will be under a couple of feet of leaf litter, branch debris, moss, lichen, and will be soft, moist, aerated, full of worms and bugs and fungus.

That's what disturbance destroys. It's not just the soil itself -- it's everything that makes the soil. Those things, in turn, are what makes a forest, not just trees. I almost don't care about trees at all, except as they affect the larger system that is the Forest. That's why I'm so adamant about limiting disturbance. I don't want to save any special tree or something -- I just want to make sure that there are forests for later so fifty generations from now there'll still be raw materials to make buttwipe out of.

So many different issues.
Laminated root rot. I've had a little experience with it. Thinning is probably the worst thing you can do. Seems to be worse in dryer soils but not much you can do about it realistically except planting trees with resistance. Almost impossible to tell 100% which trees are infected. If you leave them they blow down when you let the wind in. You can't replant with more resitant trees as long as you thin.
Logged in the Bremerton watershed and there was a lot of it. It was pretty obvious that there had never been any large timber in the area. The rot killed them before they got very big. They wouldn't allow clearcuts and we were thinning. Lots of repeated entries which constantly damages new growth plus there is a certain amount of stand damage every time. Really exacerbates the blowdown issue also.
That's what it looked like to me.

Spruce and hemlock forests and St Helens. Apples and oranges. St Helens is fir country. Spruce and Hemlock forest here on the wet side are not effected long term by a burn at least soil wise. The soil is not destroyed and the spruce and hemlock grows back just fine. Probably never see any burns here again anyway. Too much air polution.
St Helens, That's really not soil disturbance at least anything that can be compared with logging. More like dumping 10 feet of sterile pummy on top of everything. In logging you just stir it up a bit at worst.
I'm not really advocating scalping the country with a cat but yarding a few logs to the road doesn't stir things up that much
 
there again sustainable forestry is all about selective cutting removing the worst first and doing it with as little disturbance as possible to the land! A high lead yarder is an appropriate machine if it is used correctly. And horse's could keep up with a mill like that if you had enough teamsters as stated on one of the other threads Two teams were able to produce 45000 feet of logs to the landing in two days ! But allot of the skills needed too work a team that well has been lost and only now is there a movement to bring that back! But getting back too what I was saying by looking at the natural tree paint that mother nature has made cavity's seeping wounds lighting and bug damage, and deformed trees. Timber can be marked too remove the inferior and open the canopy to create light so the under growth and smaller trees can grow! This allows your food for wild life including huckleberry's to grow with out stripping the land! And as madhatte posted the old growth timber has soils feet deep and reclaim site the soil is disturbed so badly that they can not regenerate that depth for century's
 
And horse's could keep up with a mill like that if you had enough teamsters as stated on one of the other threads Two teams were able to produce 45000 feet of logs to the landing in two days !

45000 feet in two days is pretty good for two teams. But when we need a million feet on the landing every week and the ground is cow face steep I'd rather have a Chinook or an S-64. Very little soil disturbance with a helicopter.

Horses have their place and I'm glad to see somebody like yourself that cares enough to keep the old time traditions alive. But in most of the places I work they couldn't yard enough timber to make any money and they couldn't yard enough timber to keep a decent sized mill going. They're fun to watch and they're a curiosity but nobody who is really logging for a living takes them very seriously.
 
im not only a trained logger and educated forester, im also a landowner. the only ground if purchased is the 4 acres i live on. the rest of my ground has been handed down through the family.

the management of the ground before it was in my hands was mostly leave it all or take it all. this has left me with areas loaded with wood, and areas that are very young stands.

my forestry education has given me the skills to 'read' a stand of timber. ive seen professionally managed stands and butchered woodlots with nothing notable left standing. and ive seen these stands 1, 10, 50 years post harvest. this gives me a playground as a forester to manipulate different stands.

its my perspective as a landowner that leads me to treat every woodlot as my own. i want to teach my son, and my grandson how to log, and how to manage a forest for long term returns.
 
as i have stated before its not about old time traditions its about utilization of the right technology to the right project and your right in the conditions you are in on a steep hill side a helicopter might be the best option ! But cost of that helicopter is expensive and unrealistic for most operations! And as far as horses keeping up with a large mill how do you think they did it in the old days all those redwoods were moved with draft animals on hillside and in flat areas. I have a friend that lives up on wolf creek pass in Colorado and logs on hillsides that are as steep as cliff sides as far as Im concerned and he uses horses and mules to skid these logs out! And I know many loggers that are logging for a living will disagree with your thinking that it a niche or curiosity thing! There out there everyday moving timber and making a larger profit than they did with large iron !I reiterate if it cost you $250.00 per day to operate a skidder and it cost you $10.00 per day to run a horse and you can do about the same amount of work then which do you think would make more profit? And 371 goundie my hats off to you thats exactly the way to bring up the next generation! I too am teaching my sons in the same manor!
 
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there again sustainable forestry is all about selective cutting removing the worst first and doing it with as little disturbance as possible to the land! A high lead yarder is an appropriate machine if it is used correctly. And horse's could keep up with a mill like that if you had enough teamsters as stated on one of the other threads Two teams were able to produce 45000 feet of logs to the landing in two days ! But allot of the skills needed too work a team that well has been lost and only now is there a movement to bring that back! But getting back too what I was saying by looking at the natural tree paint that mother nature has made cavity's seeping wounds lighting and bug damage, and deformed trees. Timber can be marked too remove the inferior and open the canopy to create light so the under growth and smaller trees can grow! This allows your food for wild life including huckleberry's to grow with out stripping the land! And as madhatte posted the old growth timber has soils feet deep and reclaim site the soil is disturbed so badly that they can not regenerate that depth for century's

I really am at a loss what to say about your posts except to say one size does not fit all.You may well have the best aproach for where you are at. Please though do not dismiss clearcuts wholesale. They really are the best way to do things in some areas. In my posts I have tried to make it clear my observations are limited to my small area of wandering up and down the coast. I wouldn't dane to argue for the same thing anywhere east of the coast range.
 
Laminated root rot. I've had a little experience with it. Thinning is probably the worst thing you can do.

...in the short term. As noted above, it's a disease endemic to young forests. Older forests will build a tolerance. That's why it's good to plan for a many-aged stand.

Almost impossible to tell 100% which trees are infected.

100% true. I'm participating in a study now on how to find the edge of a disease center reliably. It's proving to be very difficult.
 
Give me the data to back that up ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest! Then big money manipulated the forestry service into showing that clear cutting was fine if they just left a few spots here and there This type of thinking along with the the agricultural practices of the day caused the dust bowl which led to the great depression which led to the formation of the cccs! There experts decided that transplanting trees would be a great way of regenerating the forest which it was and the lumber barons seen this as a way that they could passify the public into thinking they were doing something wonderful by replanting what they took but in reality it was all about taking as much as they could with as little expenditure as possible !
 
Give me the data to back that up ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest! Then big money manipulated the forestry service into showing that clear cutting was fine if they just left a few spots here and there This type of thinking along with the the agricultural practices of the day caused the dust bowl which led to the great depression which led to the formation of the cccs! There experts decided that transplanting trees would be a great way of regenerating the forest which it was and the lumber barons seen this as a way that they could passify the public into thinking they were doing something wonderful by replanting what they took but in reality it was all about taking as much as they could with as little expenditure as possible !

You seem to have the world figured out to suit you so I'm done. Carry on as you please.
 
No I just believe in the facts as they are presented to me! give me data that supports clear cutting as a sustainable way of logging and I would gladly rethink my opinion!As far as I'm concerned clear cutting is just a cheap and fast way of getting wood off a mountain, Replanting dose replace the timber that is lost but dose so at the loss of wood quality and ecological diversity!
 
Give me the data to back that up ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest! Then big money manipulated the forestry service into showing that clear cutting was fine if they just left a few spots here and there This type of thinking along with the the agricultural practices of the day caused the dust bowl which led to the great depression which led to the formation of the cccs! There experts decided that transplanting trees would be a great way of regenerating the forest which it was and the lumber barons seen this as a way that they could passify the public into thinking they were doing something wonderful by replanting what they took but in reality it was all about taking as much as they could with as little expenditure as possible !

Come on bud,
His name is spelled John Muir. He, in my opinion, is the father of all the waco environmentalist we're dealing with today. But I don't think he was shutting anyone down before the forest service was started. I'm sure he was squacking though.

Andy
 
Maddhatte are you trying to say that the forestry service was started because of the great fire? That is the link that you posted!
 
I stand corrected I didn't my typo, but if you check your history books you will see that he had as big of a following as the environmental s do today!He most certainly was trying to shut down the lumber barons and Teddy Roosevelt started the forestry service to be an intermediary between the to camps! This was taken from the forestry dept. history page The founding of the National Forest System and the Forest Service, an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, has its roots in the last quarter of the 19th century. The national forests (at first called forest reserves) began with the Forest Reserve Act of 1891, which allowed the president to establish forest reserves from timber covered public domain land. Several early leaders and visionaries, along with willing presidents (especially Teddy Roosevelt), scientific and conservation organizations, and newly trained forestry professionals, led the successful effort in retaining millions of acres of Federal forest land for future generations.
 
I stand corrected I didn't my typo, but if you check your history books you will see that he had as big of a following as the environmental s do today!He most certainly was trying to shut down the lumber barons and Teddy Roosevelt started the forestry service to be an intermediary between the to camps! This was taken from the forestry dept. history page The founding of the National Forest System and the Forest Service, an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, has its roots in the last quarter of the 19th century. The national forests (at first called forest reserves) began with the Forest Reserve Act of 1891, which allowed the president to establish forest reserves from timber covered public domain land. Several early leaders and visionaries, along with willing presidents (especially Teddy Roosevelt), scientific and conservation organizations, and newly trained forestry professionals, led the successful effort in retaining millions of acres of Federal forest land for future generations.


That is some powerful Kool Aid you are drinking!
Clear cuts on the west coast=dust bowl in the high plains?
Clear cuts are sustainable and have been sustained but if you blind yourself and believe half truths and environMENTAList agenda you are crippling yourself from the start.
If you do not understand the market factors that have caused juvenile trees to be cut into lumber and sold resulting in lower ring counts, you have not even scratched the surface of understanding what you are ranting about.
A big reason for the lumber quality that you complain about is because of the pressures people like you have brought onto the industry! And then you complain about your success! Are you related to my ex?

Is this a little plagiarism? Lol
Read the second paragraph.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1602.html
 
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joesawer first of all I hate Kool aid I do understand the market factors I deal with them everyday! And there again support your ideologue with facts make me a believer! The reason the market has driven it self to smaller stems is because of the bad logging practices of the past and I am sorry you guy s dont like hearing that but its the truth ! And I am not ranting environmental Roderic ether its a historical fact that the logging practices that happened on the west coast enraged the public and caused the banning of the old growth timber! How else wound something like that get through congress? The study s were there to convince congress that the damage being done to the old growth timber would lead to its destruction and there for they used the spotted owl as a way of stopping that destruction ! Check your history books the cccs were formed to combat the erosion problems caused by the logging and agricultural practices that stripped our land of vegetation and caused the dust bowls on the plains and mud slides in the north west ! And as far as my success you have no idea how successful I am you dont know me from Adam, I have a very successful management practice because the management practices I use work, so thats a pretty ignorant comment!

I read the post it said, The agency itself was created from two federal entities. Beginning in 1891, forested public domain lands were set aside by presidential proclamation in order to reduce destructive logging and preserve watersheds. Now why would they create an agency to reduce the destructive practices if they didnt occur and there wasnt some sort of out cry from the general public?
 
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Maddhatte are you trying to say that the forestry service was started because of the great fire? That is the link that you posted!

Let me clarify. The early Forest Service was an ineffective, toothless agency constantly tied up in legal battles with the rival BLM. The Great Fires of 1910 galvanized the flailing agency with a single purpose: Fire Suppression.

My point is that no matter what the FS wanted to do in the beginning, it wasn't really doing it. The Great Fires made the USFS what it is today.
 
I'll do this from my head, and later cite the references.

Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted."

The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto.

Hmmmm, my history book on the FS seems to be missing. It is titled, The Greatest Good.

Muir and Pinchot were at odds with each other. Pinchot was for managing, Muir for wilderness.

Pinchot won out. The Land Nobody Wanted became public lands and now grows some pretty good timber. The land out west that was not homesteaded or owned by railroads became Forest Reserves.

After WW2, there was a housing boom. That is when the timber production ramped up on National Forests. Yes, some of the poorer growing sites were over harvested.

I got in on the last of it. Regardless of what study you read, the forests on the West Side of the Cascades made a profit for the treasury. The timber was of good quality, and was bid accordingly. Putting up clearcuts took less time, fewer people, and we had laws requiring reforesting. Not only did an area have to be replanted, it had to be certified as adequately stocked, within 5 years of that planting.

We were already starting to thin in the 1980s here. Then the environmental madness started. Did you know that one college on the east coast appealed timber sales as part of a class project? Sales out here in the west?

That's how crazy it got. Since then, the owl forests, which were the most productive, have been virtually shut down.

That's it in a nutshell. Now, I wonder where my book is? :angry:
 
Let me clarify. The early Forest Service was an ineffective, toothless agency constantly tied up in legal battles with the rival BLM. The Great Fires of 1910 galvanized the flailing agency with a single purpose: Fire Suppression.

My point is that no matter what the FS wanted to do in the beginning, it wasn't really doing it. The Great Fires made the USFS what it is today.

Ok learned something there thanks
 

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