Trash pump, vs High pressure fire pump?

[northmanlogging]

McMaster Carr maybe?

I know you can get just the pump through them, but not cheap.

 

[Blue Oaks]

My buddy is a Snap On dealer and got us a couple of these. Haven't tried it out yet but I have acquired about 350' of mostly 1.5" NH hose, but some 1" hose as well. When I do test it this spring I'll report back. My water source is my 4700 gallon well tank up the hill from my house. For now I have a 30' rigid suction hose to throw up and into the access port on the top of the old steel tank. Once I re-do my water tanks I'll have a dedicated port for the pump.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418132_200418132

 

[Hddnis]

The answer is yes. Yes I know how old this thread is but it is the best place to demonstrate my ignorance. I have a small Honda mop up pump that works great for slash piles and the like and I also have a Pacer plastic pump for moving larger amounts of water at lower pressure. When I thought I could relay pump using the Pacer. Nope it blew the plastic volute. I am going to try and find parts, maybe Forestry Suppliers. The pump was given to me with maybe an hour of use on it.

I have a pacer, been a real good pump for me. I have repaired the volute using plastic epoxy and fiberglass tape, it broke when it was couple weeks old because it was dropped. The repair has lasted going on ten years now. Our local farm store sells parts for them. If they don't stock a part they can order it and usually in within a couple weeks at most.

 

[Hddnis]

My buddy is a Snap On dealer and got us a couple of these. Haven't tried it out yet but I have acquired about 350' of mostly 1.5" NH hose, but some 1" hose as well. When I do test it this spring I'll report back. My water source is my 4700 gallon well tank up the hill from my house. For now I have a 30' rigid suction hose to throw up and into the access port on the top of the old steel tank. Once I re-do my water tanks I'll have a dedicated port for the pump.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418132_200418132

A good little pump. It will run 1.5" line very well.

 

[madhatte]

The wildlife folks have those on UTV's with the teensiest little tanks you ever saw. They're handy for catching spots and for mopup but their pressure and flow are both low enough that you really don't want to depend on them as initial attack platforms.

 

[edrrt]

Since this thread comes up a lot when people ask this question, and I had this question myself I will post this.

I bought several of both for fire protection. Honda, Koshen HP, harbor freight and other off brand high pressure fire pumps. My results:

Regarding whether you need them a high pressure pump or a trash pump I think a trash pump is adequate for just about everybody. A 2-inch trash pump with 1.5 in fire hose and adjustable nozzle throws an enormous amount of water over 25 yards. It easily clears the roof of a two-story building. It moves double the volume, allows for manifolds to run multiple additional lines of smaller size. It also has the advantage of not producing a huge windblast to fan the fire and being a lot easier on the operator. I think for most people that have farms or properties, unless you are pushing water uphill they work excellent for fire.

The high pressure pumps will push about half the volume of water around 35 to 40% further. Personally I did not like them for wildfire. The extra distance wasn't necessary, a lot more water was dispersed in the wind and did not even make it where you wanted it, it was much harder on the operator. It was also clear that it was a lot harder on the engine.

An additional advantage with the trash pump is that they move twice the volume and that can be very handy when a fire crew shows up with real equipment and they need a water supply. Your trash pump discharge can easily be tossed in the water tank on a fire truck and keep up. Strained fire resources often will not have the ability to pull water out of your swimming pool or water tanks and so if you have this setup ahead of time it can be a game changer.

Regarding branding I'm a firm believer that paying extra for the Honda engine is worth it, particularly for something that is used infrequently that you need to run and depend on.

That said the cheep harbor freight predator 2" trash pump is going on 5 years now and is still kicking butt. The first pump to fail was the very expensive Japanese Koshen. The bearing went out.

Although the other cheap high pressure fire pumps from China had a lifan engine, supposedly the same maker as predator... The quality was significantly worse for some reason. They also vibrate themselves to pieces trying to push the HP pump.

So to summarize I think a cheaper 2-in Honda trash pump with 1.5" hose is perfectly fine for fire, even has some advantages. I would not purchase any of the Chinese high pressure cheaper options. The harbor freight pump is actually ok. One big advantage being you can rush out and get one... Or 3 at your local HF if a fire threat starts. You will not be able to find any fittings or hose and so you're going to need to have that sorted out ahead of time.
Trash Pump (soaks everything fast for 25 yards)

"Fire" Pump (Shoots farther but hard to get anything wet as the finer mist is dispersed in the wind).


Avoid these. Buy the Honda if you need high pressure.

 

[Wow]

No particular model, most fire pump are rated at 100-150 psi, but what little experience I have with fire hose they where running about 80-90 and getting it done.

The trash pumps have no psi rating, so I'm a little lost for numbers.

My fire truck usually ran 90psi. It's been so long can't remember GPM. We had to qualify a pumper and we had a flow gauge. I recall something like 800 GPM for a few minutes. 4400 gallon tanker. Emptied pretty quickly BUT we stopped before completely empty. I know almost anything beats a garden hose. Main thing is trash. No trash in the nozzle ever. The twist nozzle. Right for Reach Left for Life. Left gave a good spray. Right a stream. You want both. I'd recommend you visit a Volunteer fire department. They have regular meetings. We did. Training is free. I've thought about a barrel in the air. Add pressure gauge. Use compressor fill to 80% add pressure. Even if the electrical goes out a Gas powered compressor could run. Then there is this. A trash pump hooked to a pressurized water tank might blow pretty hard. We had a floating pump and a Water tank. 4400 gallons. We'd set up. Unfold the tank dump the truck crank the float pump send the driver for more water. Several trucks Shuttling water was good for stationary. For grass we had a 1.25 reel line. I've put out woods fires with that. Bunker gear is important. I don't have bunker gear at home but all cotton clothing is the best street clothes and heavy gloves and boots BUT NOTHING but good Bunker is really safe. A pump that draws water needs clean water. Even if the pump can handle pine straw the Nozzle hates it. I'd say 6, 55 gallon drums would be a bucket. Ways to pressure them and ways to get lines hooked to them. Have you thought about plumbing the attic of your home? You'd have to have a way to flip the main breaker off. Have a good headlight and a nozzle. Inside and attic is a likely place for fires to start. There and in the kitchen. I refuse to cook using hot oil inside the house. Grease fires. Wow. Have a way to turn the heat source OFF. Grab a towel wet it and WRING the water OUT. if you can get below the fire and reach up spreading the wet NOT DRIPPING WET Towel over the pot of burning grease it Will go out.
The HUGE MISTAKE most people make is tossing Water into a lot of burning grease. IT WILL EXPLODE spread the fire and hurt people. Dry Flour corn meal sand asked almost anything helps EXCEPT LIQUID. The oil may be at least 500 degrees water boils at 212. Water sinks beneath oil. Burning oil BOILS WATER. The steam builds up then blows. It spews the burning oil everywhere. This is WHY I won't buy an electric Stove that has the knobs at the rear. I'm not reaching over a burning pot of oil to turn it off. Breaker should be handy. Good luck.

 

[2dogs]

The last two posts are regarding homeowner situations. This is the Forestry and Logging forum and this thread was started by a logger who wants (and needs) fire protection for his job. Often the requirement is 500 gallons, a certain amount of hose, and a certain performance pump. Let's keep the two subjects separate.

 

[2dogs]

It took me awhile to find this long winded thread but I have a couple stories. A few weeks ago I asked the Cal Fire hand crew to burn some slash piles while I had two crew members with me moving bucked wood. I told them to light the high side and down wind. As I was coming back from the dumpsite all I could see was a wall of flame and crew members moving very quickly around the fire. I still had the dump trailer hooked up. The Captain came down the hill and quickly asked if we still had a water buffalo. I said yep and he said GET IT! We unhooked the trailer in the middle of the parking lot and went and hooked up the water buffalo. I drove it to the top of the hill and turned around and parked. The crew strung out 200' of 1 1/2" hose and managed to cool down the fire. There was still one fir tree smoking but the stream wouldn't quite reach the highest point but we knew it wasn't going to start burning. After awhile we wyed out to a 1" line and a p-line ( aka toy hose, aka 3/4" garden hose"). That reduced our water flow but I still had to refill the water buffalo, 500 gallons, after a half hour or so.

The site of the slash burn looks great after rehab and I'm investigating which seed mix to use though do to upcoming construction I probably won't plant until late fall or winter.

At other slash piles I stage a full IBC tote, about 265 gallons, and a portable pump. One pump is a 1" Honda I bought new and the other is a Harbor Freight I bought unused of LetGo. Both worked fine since I never have much hose strung out.

I intentionally try to create charcoal instead of burning everything to white ash. The burn site does not get too hot and I hope doesn't sterilize the soil. Also we can spread the remaining limbs by chipping them thus aiding in carbon sequestration and "creating" "terra preta".

 

[Blue Oaks]

Dang. Sounds like some real excitement there.

 

[2dogs]

Dang. Sounds like some real excitement there.

It was a bit concerning but all the piles had a good line around them. It was my fault for not having the line cut further away from the clump of fir trees. I have a standard for pile burns but my notes and my weather kit were sitting at home. Duh. We operated on the SWAG method.

Blue Oaks you know the Santa Cruz mountains are getting quite dry, that is low fuel moistures in the light stuff, and that the recent rains haven't done anything to boost moisture levels. (I need a Kestrel).

 

[Fireman Bill]

2dogs said most f it. I also have been a fire fighter for 35 years and VA fire Instructor teaching pump operators and drivers. The trash pumps have several styles/types. Diaphragm, open centrifugal and I’ve even seen gear style that are grinders. The trash pumps can move alot of water but will not produce much pressure. They also are not built for tough conditions unless its a Whacker Neuson or equivalent.. Which are dang expensive. The true fire rated centrifugal pump be it a single stage or 2 stage are designed to pump higher pressures as well as move a lot of water. The clearances are of course tighter. The fire pumps volute is engineered to reduce impeller shaft wear and use the energy of the water to increase pressure. So a small 150-200 gpm fire rated pump would be a great option. Heck an 18 HP engine runs them great. Oh fire pumps are rated at pressure to certain GPM’s. The data plates have the flow and psi rating on them. Most fire pumps max gpm ratings will be at 150 psi. Anyway sounds like a great project. Lots of pumps around but not knowing the condition is the Problem. If they’ve never been cavitation or run without water or strainer then a seal replacement may be all thats needed. Good luck in your build…

 

[Drptrch]

Mark-III pump specs

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[Drptrch]

Mark-III pump specs

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Honda WH20

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dnccgmzj9f7f5gk/Honda WH20 pump 1.png?dl=0

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