Underbidding

[Blakesmaster]

How is it you charge as much as me, Rope? Auugghhh, I need an accountant!

 

[ropensaddle]

How is it you charge as much as me, Rope? Auugghhh, I need an accountant!

I am not sure if you mean I am high or low but it stinks here
wages are behind. I am considered a medium to big and definitely
a little on the high side!

 

[Blakesmaster]

Seems low to me. I know my boss tries to bring in at least $2500 for a full day. Two partners and 3 full timers counting me. At least 3/4 of a mil in equipment though. Nevermind. I'm an idiot. It takes me at least 2 days to do what my boss does in one. I guess I'm not much cheaper than him. I'm starting to think I'm not an Underbidder afterall, just a "Super-Trimmer".

 

[TDunk]

Just as a side note, as far as bidding/underbidding, what is a comfortable number to earn in a day for any of you guys, small outifts I mean. Is it $500, $1000, $1500? Supposing you could get the job done in a day, one guy in the tree, one on the ground, what should you expect to make from that crew? Elm tree, pine tree, ten trees, two trees, what ever the job, done in one day or day by day, what is a good/fair days earnings where you feel comfortable, not cheaped out and not making a killing? Just wondering if I'm too cheap, overpriced or just right. For me BTW, If I can walk away with $1000 gross on the day, I'm real happy. $600 gross, satisfied but could be better.

This is what this thread is all about in summary. I charge $100 and hour/$800 a day. BUT, if your going to be working on 1 tree all day and it's a big, nasty,half dead, limbs over house etc etc........ by all means charge more than $800. On jobs like that, you need compensated for your experience/know how. Example: I took down a fairly large red oak ( i think) last year. Limbs over garage, limbs over porch, and limbs over neighbors hedges. Had everything done and cleaned-up in 6 hrs. Charged him $950. If i charged him by an hourly rate, it'd come to $600. But the job it's self is worth more than $100 an hour. Complicated but you get the jist of it.

 

[tree MDS]

I am not sure if you mean I am high or low but it stinks here
wages are behind. I am considered a medium to big and definitely
a little on the high side!

Yeah dude, sounds like a crap area for work, sorry about that-honestly! I feel bad for a hard work'in dude thats gotta fight that hard to make an honest wage. Around here we're spoiled, we live in one of the richest parts of CT, but its still a fight like you would'nt believe, there are some bad a$$ed treeguys along with the hacks believe me! Some sorry pansy ones too, but its big tree service area-ya get all types. I'm happy with 1400 to 1500 for 8 hours but cant allways get that so sometimes I have to do the best I can. The only time I charge more is when its a big a$$ed tree with no access, then I know I've got a good chance of gettin more because not just any "Super Trimmer" can do it and its going to take a real crew that I can put together, and it'll get done!! -even in my off season!

 

[teamtree]

I shoot for 1200 - 1600 for full day with threes guys and all my equipment but at the end of the year it works out to be about $125 per hour. I rarely have all my equipment on one job at the same time.

I would say I bring in around 800 - 900 most days as sometimes we only work 5-6 hours.

 

[Blakesmaster]

The reason I think of it hourly ( not bill it, mind you, I give an estimate based on how long I think it will take us and stick to that ) is because the technical climbing portion doesn't cost me anything except overhead. Running a chipper, driving a truck, hiring guys to drag brush costs gas, wages and overhead. Though one takes more skill, the other takes more money and it sort of evens itself out.

 

[capetrees]

Thanks all! I figure I'm around the same. The low ball of 600 is going to pay the one guy and then it pays me and the wear and tear on the wequipment but that low ball is in the dead of winter when its slow and competitive. Some trees will get the one price and take into consideration the skills, equip. etc and it will be higher but if its a cost plus job, $120/hr for one man and chipper and the other hours $40/hr per man. Typical 8 hr day would break down to 1 guy 8 hrs, $320, one guy 7 hrs, $280 and the remaining 1 hour the same guy is on the chipper @$120 = $720. Thats for those drag brush all day from topping trees for views and such. When I first started, I was getting screwed, underpricing jobs for lack of experience, the experience being that I didn't realize people pay good money for taking out trees. Its something I love to do but who knew I could get PAID WELL for it!:greenchainsaw:

 

[treemandan]

Sounds like you need to get an accountant!

Funny thing is he is not returning my calls. He is an older respectable gent and is either dead or trying to find a pen in a mountain of papers. One day very soon I will walk into his building and see which it is.
I don't really know a whole lot but I know to do what he says. What he says is this: Since I am the sole prop. of my company and I have not one single solitary employee, that once a year I take my stack down to his office and dump it on his desk. He also tells me( and I can plainly see this) that for me to account for 30% of my adjusted gross earnings will go to pay for all the stuff I am liable for as a US citizen. Maybe 25% percent goes to whatever else I need to pay for but that is what I adjust my gross with. I work real hard to adjust that gross income.
I do not employ people under the table but instead use a legal definition of a sub- contractor. We maintain a high level of skill and ethic, sorry I don't have pictures. This is the first year 100% percent of my earnings come from my company alone. Well maybe there was 4 days I climbed for Josh but that is only 1200.00.
In the years beforehand I mostly was a sub picked up little jobs here and there. I know what is out there and all companies have some type of issues. Whether or not we devulge or even admit it to ourselves is another story.
No one has started a business in this industry like a 'fully operational deathstar' and of course that mean if you are not up to par you might get blown up by the preverbial photon torpedo( see Star Wars to understand the analogy, but I feel it fits).
Whether or not I stay where I am at( its ok) or get bigger I am not able to say. Sometimes I feel as though I actually hurt the industry as another knucklehead to look out for but all in all I am not doing anything illegal and in this world IT IS ' you have to do for you'.
Sure there are guys who operated an illegal business, some of them are nationwide and worth millions. Don't beat yourself up if you do a little fudging, I do exactly what any one would do when someone wants to pay in cash.
Things were different 20 years ago that is true and those of you who started your tree business then either started from the ground up or had someone GIVE you money in one form or the other.
You know, I don't like business, not at all. I have these dream of big skyscrapers with men and women in straight fitting clothes chasing me around trying to stomp me out. Really,it was the mushrooms in college. But in that dream the only place I could hide was under the green foliage. What that means is that I am no great business man and if I was I would certainly not do this work or start a business in this industry in hopes of being rich. But this work? I don't think there is anything else I could do and I try to do my best. Which, I'm told, ain't bad. Sorry, still no pictures. And I really enjoy doing the mom and pop thing which puts me at a connectable level with my clients. You don't think I would work for them if I didn't like em? Very rare is it that I have a problem or a misunderstanding with them.
I do pay my way out of respect for evryone else though, for roads, schools,parks,etc. Besides, I am terribly afraid of going to prison, very afraid.
As far as hacks go, sure light em up. You had just better take a real good look at yourself first. I do. I saw a birch today that had been topped at 5 inches dia. up there and 3' stubs were left sticking up to the heavens. I said to myself,"that's crazy, they should have called me". That's all for now, you bet there's is more, thanks for listening and stop calling each other names. Be sure what your perception of what you are reading is what the guys who wrote it really meant.

 

[ropensaddle]

Yeah dude, sounds like a crap area for work, sorry about that-honestly! I feel bad for a hard work'in dude thats gotta fight that hard to make an honest wage. Around here we're spoiled, we live in one of the richest parts of CT, but its still a fight like you would'nt believe, there are some bad a$$ed treeguys along with the hacks believe me! Some sorry pansy ones too, but its big tree service area-ya get all types. I'm happy with 1400 to 1500 for 8 hours but cant allways get that so sometimes I have to do the best I can. The only time I charge more is when its a big a$$ed tree with no access, then I know I've got a good chance of gettin more because not just any "Super Trimmer" can do it and its going to take a real crew that I can put together, and it'll get done!! -even in my off season!

This tree here was 1250.00 cleaned up and stump ground what
would it get in your neck of the woods? It leaned toward that house
it was 101 foot tall and a 45 inch base! Most of the services here
said they could not or would not attempt it.

 

[ropensaddle]

Treeman dan I was referring to what you said at least I think, was paying
on a 1000. dollar job 300. Correct me if I am wrong but overhead comes out before tax, well I am inc. maybe that is the diff; I don't
understand half of what my accountant tells me

 

[treejunkie13]

For the past year or so, there has been a small crew around here that has been underbidding everyone else in the area. For instance, last year about Sept. the township had 27 trees they wanted removed. All red elms. 5 had to be dropped and cleaned up, the other 22 just had to be dropped, but i'd say about half of them had to be climbed and sectioned down. I'm not going to say what he bid, but it worked out to be under $70 a tree, wether he had to climb and clean-up or just drop. Another instance was i went to look at a big Hemlock tree that a friend of mine wanted taken down (he live's right down the road from the "competition") As soon as i get home my phone rings and it was my friend. He's says "you'll never believe what just happened" so i ask "what". He said "your competition showed up right after you left saying that he will beet any price that i gave him and that i don't know what i'm doing......blah blah blah". Needless to say he didn't get the job, but i found out today that he's downsizing (getting rid of his bucket truck). Come to find out he's not making enough money to fix his equipment. The clutch is junk in his truck and i'm not sure what wrong with his chipper but it's out for the count. I wasn't going to post this because i didn't want to seem like i was bashing/bad mouthing him. I don't do that. I'm confident in the work i do, and that's all that really concerns me. But on one hand i hate to see people fail at something, but on the other hand i'm glad that his underbidding everyone is starting to catch up to him. I know this is something that alot of people deal with and i just wanted to share it.

And share you did...

 

[treejunkie13]

To make a long story short, there were 2 1/2 tree co. in our small town ( Davey's, a small two man crew, and me doing it part time) Now there's 6 Co. 3 reputable and 3 hacks. Now two hack Co. are out so work is gettign better but i just hope there aren't any more to replace them.

For being fairly new to the tree business, you sure have learned how to call them out...
I'm guessing that you have got Davey's on your hack list?
Either way there will always be more to replace them!

 

[TDunk]

For being fairly new to the tree business, you sure have learned how to call them out...
I'm guessing that you have got Davey's on your hack list?
Either way there will always be more to replace them!

Accually no. I have no prob. with Daveys. I know both crews personally. I've even do work on there personal vehicals when i'm not doing to tree work, as well as working on Davey's bucket trucks too. There so busy right now (and probably for the next year or so) doing line trimming for Penelec Electric that they aren't even doing much residential work. Where in NW PA do you live???

 

[treejunkie13]

Accually no. I have no prob. with Daveys. I know both crews personally. I've even do work on there personal vehicals when i'm not doing to tree work, as well as working on Davey's bucket trucks too. There so busy right now (and probably for the next year or so) doing line trimming for Penelec Electric that they aren't even doing much residential work. Where in NW PA do you live???

I live down the road and around the corner from you. Working on my 12th year being a HACK!

 

[TDunk]

I live down the road and around the corner from you. Working on my 12th year being a HACK!

I know who you are, talked to you on the phone before.

 

[masterarbor]

i shoot for $65.00 per man per hour, and usually work a two man crew. sometimes i get lucky and make a ton more and sometimes i'll underestimate the job (it happens to the best of us) and it'll dip a bit under $65.00. but it it dips too much, i'm in trouble, 'cause operating costs are so crazy and at the end of the day i want a decent chunk of change. i mean, i like the work, but it should pay what it's worth. it's always a fine line. i literally charge the maximum that i think i can and still get the job, while having them call back and refer me to friends. i don't have any ethical conflicts about trying to get the max. Case in point:

there was a vase salesman by the side of the road standing with his grandson. he had two tables set up, one on the right and one on the left. the table on the left had a sign that said, "vases, $10.00". the table on the right had a sign that said, "vases $20.00". the odd thing about it was all of the vases were exactly alike. the man's grandson asked, "grandpa, why are there two different prices when all of the vases are identical?" the salesman looked down at the boy, put his hand on the boys head and smiled, "some people like to pay $10.00, some like to pay $20.00.


i like to set up the table that sells for $20.00

 

[tree MDS]

This tree here was 1250.00 cleaned up and stump ground what
would it get in your neck of the woods? It leaned toward that house
it was 101 foot tall and a 45 inch base! Most of the services here
said they could not or would not attempt it.

Crikey! that third shot reminds me of my ex girlfriend!

 

[Blakesmaster]

Crikey! that third shot reminds me of my ex girlfriend!

haHA!! I think I know that girl!

 

[tree MDS]

This tree here was 1250.00 cleaned up and stump ground what
would it get in your neck of the woods? It leaned toward that house
it was 101 foot tall and a 45 inch base! Most of the services here
said they could not or would not attempt it.

Seriously though, its hard to tell from the pics, but probably alot more just for the danger factor. I'm guessing you didnt dare rope anything to that or climb it so it was probablt pretty quick-am I right? Probably took 5-6 hours, my guess.