What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate

[MountainHigh]

If I build another house, I will design and build it around a largest Cat stove like the Blaze King/King (8" thimble) and some radiant heat storage potential like a central chimney! That stove is one ugly mother, but very efficient and has some of the longest burn times.

In my 50+ years wood burning experience your CHIMNEY is the MOTOR of your Stove! People with the same stove can have varying experiences because different chimney types and lengths, all SUCK completely differently! Additionally, each location has varying degrees of air movement and air pressure that can affect the ability of any chimney to pull well with any given stove.

I have a two story home with an awesome CENTRAL Brick and Tile lined chimney, (6" thimble going into 6X10" flue) - that once up to temp, sucks well and stays warm providing oodles of radiant heat for hours and hours onto 2 floors - BUT - because it is not standard 6" round steel flue that these EPA stoves DEMAND (Blaze King/King wants 8" flue), getting the CHIMNEY up to temp takes more work and time for the more efficient EPA stoves, and if not careful, my EPA stove can back puff when loading new wood too soon.

My old fire breathing dragon didn't have any back puff issues (because they are not as efficient) but there was also more soot to clean and less heat in the home because it didn't have a secondary burn. I tried 2 different EPA models and settled on this PE Summit - it was the most forgiving of our oversize Chimey flue and cranks out the heat when I want it- burn times on my chimney are not that long - maybe 8 hours to coals at best, if I craft my wood load thoughtfully / couple sticks of super dry on base, then big pieces of dry Hardwood on top. These EPA stoves demand dry well seasoned wood - forget about using green.
.
If you are using 6" steel chimney, there are many good EPA stoves that will provide long lasting heat, but if you are using an existing different sized flue, get ready for some experimentation.

Best of luck.

 

[naturelover]

Did you ever measure your stovetop temps during the coaling stage?

A typical burn cycle of the 30, using less than ideal wood. I expect better results when the oak dries, but now its on maple and poplar, with a little bit of dried oak I have to mix in.

From a cold start.

Load north/south in the stove with a firestarter.

Leave door open until its good and established, this may take a while. Can't shut these EPA stoves off too soon, has to be some wood charred and burning well or you'll smother it. As was said above, these stoves are VERY dependent on draft conditions.

Shut door, with air still wide open. Don't leave unattended, or you may come back to an amazing fire show and a glowing red stove.

Temps climb to around 400 stovetop, then you can start shutting it down. Sometimes I can damp it down to the cruise position, sometimes it has to be done in stages till it gets to 500 or so. Secondaries have already, or are in the process of, kicking in.

Temps climb to 550-650 and usually stay steady there when the stove is damped down. Sometimes I'll get 'er to climb to 700 or so (depending on the stove, this may be a little too hot, but has been said this is a pretty normal temp for the 30). It'll usually stay this way for around 2.5 hours, though I expect to be able to stay here longer with some good oak, I'd say 3-4 would be easy to obtain.

Secondary stage ends, temps fall to around 450.

As it coals, temps slowly fall from 450 to 250, during this time, the air control can be pulled to fully open, depending on what the fire looks like.

This stage usually takes a few hours. When it gets to 250 or so, time to reload. Sometimes I rake the coals forward during the coaling stage, sometimes before a reload. They will burn down a little better if you rake them forward during the coaling stage.

After a few runs with it, I can now pretty much look at the fire and tell what I need to do, but its nice to be able to read the temps.

One thing about these stoves is that you need a large enough stove to get enough wood in it so it can stay on the secondaries long enough to heat the area, and the coaling stage keeps it there. The more wood you can stuff in there, the more coals you will have to keep the stove hotter, for longer, during the coaling stage. These EPA stoves cycle like this unlike a smoke dragon, as you can usually keep feeding a smoke dragon wood earlier in the coaling stage to maintain more constant temps.

Without some experience, doing that with an EPA stove will likely overfire it, too much off-gassing at once.

All that said with my 4 months experience with an EPA stove. YMMV...

However, I'd think that stove should put out much more heat than that little gas stove you show...

 

[Whitespider]

OH‼ Hell no Del_‼
Obviously I'll screw it all up and he won't be able to heat the dog house with it‼

 

[Oxford]

Well, if you did, it would doubtless be somebody else's fault.

 

[Eric Modell]

Back to OP topic what Epa stove will bridge the gap between my situation and spiders. Spider wants no part of modern stoves, we need to be cautions because we currently do not have wood cut ahead but do have a unlimited supply of timber in the neighbourhood. My wife and 96 year old great grandma have been burning wood here on he farm since 1950, I did not start until the seventies. We have a history of cutting during the winter months and have not yet learned the virtues of ageing or seasoning the wood. We have nothing against the practice, just have not been in the rhythm. We ask the question which EPA stove will not leave us cold if our wood is not perfect. I am getting older and my wife, and great grandma do help gather wood any more. The Joutul, and and Englander are on my short list. I see the virtue in modern engineering but some of us must move forward slowly. My first winters wood was cut and spit with a axe. My second and third winters wood was harvested with a bow saw. We now have many saws mauls and a splitter, we have come a long way.

 

[Eric Modell]

Did you ever measure your stovetop temps during the coaling stage?

A typical burn cycle of the 30, using less than ideal wood. I expect better results when the oak dries, but now its on maple and poplar, with a little bit of dried oak I have to mix in.

From a cold start.

Load north/south in the stove with a firestarter.

Leave door open until its good and established, this may take a while. Can't shut these EPA stoves off too soon, has to be some wood charred and burning well or you'll smother it. As was said above, these stoves are VERY dependent on draft conditions.

Shut door, with air still wide open. Don't leave unattended, or you may come back to an amazing fire show and a glowing red stove.

Temps climb to around 400 stovetop, then you can start shutting it down. Sometimes I can damp it down to the cruise position, sometimes it has to be done in stages till it gets to 500 or so. Secondaries have already, or are in the process of, kicking in.

Temps climb to 550-650 and usually stay steady there when the stove is damped down. Sometimes I'll get 'er to climb to 700 or so (depending on the stove, this may be a little too hot, but has been said this is a pretty normal temp for the 30). It'll usually stay this way for around 2.5 hours, though I expect to be able to stay here longer with some good oak, I'd say 3-4 would be easy to obtain.

Secondary stage ends, temps fall to around 450.

As it coals, temps slowly fall from 450 to 250, during this time, the air control can be pulled to fully open, depending on what the fire looks like.

This stage usually takes a few hours. When it gets to 250 or so, time to reload. Sometimes I rake the coals forward during the coaling stage, sometimes before a reload. They will burn down a little better if you rake them forward during the coaling stage.

After a few runs with it, I can now pretty much look at the fire and tell what I need to do, but its nice to be able to read the temps.

One thing about these stoves is that you need a large enough stove to get enough wood in it so it can stay on the secondaries long enough to heat the area, and the coaling stage keeps it there. The more wood you can stuff in there, the more coals you will have to keep the stove hotter, for longer, during the coaling stage. These EPA stoves cycle like this unlike a smoke dragon, as you can usually keep feeding a smoke dragon wood earlier in the coaling stage to maintain more constant temps.

Without some experience, doing that with an EPA stove will likely overfire it, too much off-gassing at once.

All that said with my 4 months experience with an EPA stove. YMMV...

However, I'd think that stove should put out much more heat than that little gas stove you show...

WE are burning one year old oak tops. There has been a lot of logging going on in the neighbourhood. These tops are starting to rot but still are some what green would fuel like this work in your stove. We do split the wood very fine. The neighbours tease me for making cook wood.

 

[flotek]

I would then recommend a nc30 Englander or a drolet ht2000

 

[Eric Modell]

I would then recommend a nc30 Englander or a drolet ht2000

Tell me about the Drolet ht2000 is a large secondary combuston stove.

 

[naturelover]

Well, that would be dependent upon the moisture content. I know spidey doesn't really like the gadget, but the little moisture meter from lowes will tell you with somewhat reason how dry the wood is. I try to keep it around 20% or less on a freshly split face, and the stove seems to do pretty well on that.

I did stuff a load of mostly green in there, and I had to leave the door open to get it to burn. It still heated though, and if you can find some dry wood, pallets, or even some of those pre-formed logs to mix in there, you should be able to get some heat out of it.

I was like you, I had an old Warm Morning 520 coal stove in the garage to begin with, and I could do the same, let it season over summer and it'd burn it. I had to run it nearly half open though on the air inlet to get it to heat with the green wood. But it was working well enough, and my chimney stayed clean too, cause I had to run it so hot to get it to heat the garage. It was getting bad though, and the sides were rusting out, so it was time to replace it.

These EPA stoves are a little more picky. They won't burn that well with green or wet wood, because of the temperature you have to reach within the firebox to re-burn the secondary gases. On top of that, most people report that their flue temps are lower in an EPA stove than with a smoke dragon, which can exasperate creosote buildup with green wood.

As has been stated, the draft on these are important too. Too much draft and it will always run too hot and you won't be able to control it (usually getting around 800 stovetop for the Englander), or not enough and it won't burn well or at all. Too much draft may be able to be fixed with some blocking off of the air inlets on the stove with some magnets and such, and too low a draft may require some chimney rework.

There is also a catalytic converter stove, don't have experience with these though, but am thinking it may be a little more even heat than a secondary burn stove. But then you get into having to buy catalytic converters for it after a few years, and I don't believe they can produce the brute force heat of a secondary stove.

All this not to scare you away from an EPA stove, but mainly so you don't get too discouraged if you can't get it to burn correctly right away. While not as easy as my old 520 to run, it is a pretty easy learning curve.

I researched my purchase for a bit beforehand, and there is a lot of information on the Interwebs for these newfangled EPA stoves.

I picked the 30 because it's looks to be a well built stove for the price, the great reviews of the stove itself, and reading of how good its customer service was, and for its large firebox size. Also made in the USA, which is nice.

 

[Eric Modell]

Did you ever measure your stovetop temps during the coaling stage?
One thing about these stoves is that you need a large enough stove to get enough wood in it so it can stay on the secondaries long enough to heat the area, and the coaling stage keeps it there. The more wood you can stuff in there, the more coals you will have to keep the stove hotter, for longer, during the coaling stage. These EPA stoves cycle like this unlike a smoke dragon, as you can usually keep feeding a smoke dragon wood earlier in the coaling stage to maintain more constant temps...

We have always been concerned about buying one of these new small stoves. If the stove is to large put a small load in it and wait for it to heat. If the stove is to small get the blankets out. It is like saw's if you can only have one it must be the big one.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Tell me about the Drolet ht2000 is a large secondary combuston stove.

I got one a year ago, almost exactly. I'm happy with it, and would recommend it. There are a few things that bug me a little, read some of my reviews toward the end of the thread. I apologize for the missing pictures due to the forum hack, the originals are long since deleted, or I'd try to restore them.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-time-has-come.223471/

If you've got any specific HT2000 questions, you can ask me in that thread or send me a message. I'll be happy to answer. I had it narrowed down to the two mentioned, this and the NC30. It boiled down to the 2000 being in stock locally vs special order for the NC 30. I don't think Mill's Fleet Farm gets as far south as you, but they're in stock at my local FF for $999, just walked by em yesterday.

It's fair at burning less than fully seasoned wood - not great, but fair. Most of my wood is 1-2 years seasoned, but I did burn a bit off the green pile just to see what'd happen. I'd say not much difference than my old smoke dragon. Once the firebox is hot, it'll go. It's getting it up to temp with green wood that's difficult. Having dry stuff to get a good fire going helps.

From what I've read - and I'm no expert, the catalytic stove have a harder time with green wood, plugged cats, premature failures from steam hitting the hot cat, etc., but this may not apply to all cat stoves. Honestly, except for used ones, they were out of my budget. Used came in two flavors when I was looking: Little bitty cabin stoves, or wore-slap-out units that someone was trying to wring a few more bucks back out of. Neither interested me. If you've got time to spend a summer searching CL and local shopper papers, your luck might be better.

 

[Whitespider]

It is like saw's it you can only have one it must be the big one.

Uh-oh...

 

[flotek]

The nc 30 is a quality stove but the looks are utilitarian the drolet is similar in many respects .. but more aesthetically pleasing to the eye

 

[blacklocst]

I have a Jotul 600 and it recommends throwing in two sticks at a time instead of loading it up, I noticed that I can keep the stove in the 450 to 550 a degree range with no problem and coaling is never an issue. Have you tried running the stove this way Spidy?

 

[Whitespider]

Yeah blacklocst, I have, and it will keep heating better and longer... and it takes a lot longer to build up that nasty coal bed.
But... not tryin' to be a PITA, just being honest... that don't work for me, at least most of the time it don't.
Again... not tryin' to be a PITA, just being honest... let me give you a scenario...

Let's say I'm gonna' head out and cut a little wood this morning for a few hours (it's 12° out there). Well, when I come back out'a the woodlot 5 hours from now I'd like to have a warm shop to strip off my wet, heavy, cold weather cloths, clean up the saw and equipment, dry my gloves, thaw out my boots, back the little tractor in so it can melt off, maybe have a beer or two and sharpen the chains, etc. So I wanna' get a fire going that will warm up the shop, and keep it that way until I get back in. See, I won't be there to keep adding 2 or 3 splits every hour or two, I won't be there to stir the coals, I won't be there to keep adjusting the draft control as the fire burns down... basically, I won't be there to "babysit" the stove, I can't "babysit" the stove even if I did want to. I need to be able to get a fire goin', load up the firebox, set the draft control-flue damper-whatever, and walk away for 4, 5, maybe 6 hours. And this box just flat won't allow that... I have to be continuously screwing' around with it to keep it running and heating.

See where I'm coming from?? If it won't heat at a (relatively) high and steady rate it's pretty much worthless to me... it's just a waste of firewood for me to even start a fire because a hour (or two at best) after I leave it the rate of heating drops so low the shop actually starts cooling back off. By the time I get back it'll be back down to 15° or 20° in there. Forget that starting at 12° it will take a good 1½ - 2½ hours at a (relatively) high rate of heating just to get the shop up to... say... 65°. Well, if I ain't there to "babysit" it... ain't no sense even starting it, just a waste of good firewood.

That's why I said I'll just go back to a barrel stove in there... man, a barrel stove would have that shop at 85° in about an hour or so if ya' really crank 'em up. But fill 'em up, choke 'em back a little, and 5 hours later (when I get back to the shop) it would easily be 65°-70° (or more) in there... and still be heating. Sure, a barrel uses a lot of wood... but, using what I have now just flat wastes wood.
*

 

[oldspark]

It looks like the Drolet would have been a better choice for me, way less money with a little bigger firebox, heat rating is a little lower but those numbers are pulled out of their ass any way.
Not sure why you guys mess with green wood.

 

[naturelover]

Yeah blacklocst, I have, and it will keep heating better and longer... and it takes a lot longer to build up that nasty coal bed.
But... not tryin' to be a PITA, just being honest... that don't work for me, at least most of the time it don't.
Again... not tryin' to be a PITA, just being honest... let me give you a scenario...

Let's say I'm gonna' head out and cut a little wood this morning for a few hours (it's 12° out there). Well, when I come back out'a the woodlot 5 hours from now I'd like to have a warm shop to strip off my wet, heavy, cold weather cloths, clean up the saw and equipment, dry my gloves, thaw out my boots, back the little tractor in so it can melt off, maybe have a beer or two and sharpen the chains, etc. So I wanna' get a fire going that will warm up the shop, and keep it that way until I get back in. See, I won't be there to keep adding 2 or 3 splits every hour or two, I won't be there to stir the coals, I won't be there to keep adjusting the draft control as the fire burns down... basically, I won't be there to "babysit" the stove, I can't "babysit" the stove even if I did want to. I need to be able to get a fire goin', load up the firebox, set the draft control-flue damper-whatever, and walk away for 4, 5, maybe 6 hours. And this box just flat won't allow that... I have to be continuously screwing' around with it to keep it running and heating.

See where I'm coming from?? If it won't heat at a (relatively) high and steady rate it's pretty much worthless to me... it's just a waste of firewood for me to even start a fire because a hour (or two at best) after I leave it the rate of heating drops so low the shop actually starts cooling back off. By the time I get back it'll be back down to 15° or 20° in there. Forget that starting at 12° it will take a good 1½ - 2½ hours at a (relatively) high rate of heating just to get the shop up to... say... 65°. Well, if I ain't there to "babysit" it... ain't no sense even starting it, just a waste of good firewood.

That's why I said I'll just go back to a barrel stove in there... man, a barrel stove would have that shop at 85° in about an hour or so if ya' really crank 'em up. But fill 'em up, choke 'em back a little, and 5 hours later (when I get back to the shop) it would easily be 65°-70° (or more) in there... and still be heating. Sure, a barrel uses a lot of wood... but, using what I have now just flat wastes wood.
*

You needed a bigger EPA stove.....





Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Oxford]

I'm not really sure you need to try to be a PITA. So tell me again how the stove doesn't work? Sounds to me like if you actually operate it like you're supposed to it works just fine, giving out good heat because it stays in secondary burn, because the fuel load is appropriate to the size of the firebox and the air is matched to the stage. When you slug it overfull and walk away, not so much. I know that you only say things you agree that you've said, not that you've actually said, but how does this match with your rantings about gettin' no heat and bein' able to just stick your hand in the firebox above those worthless coals? Just this morning, you were grateful that somebody gave you an out that the stove was broken, because you'd done just everything to get it to work and nothing did. Now, it sounds like you're able to make it work no problem, it just requires more involvement than you're willing- or able- to have.

 

[Chris-PA]

A barrel stove holds how much wood?

 

[Whitespider]

Sounds to me like if you actually operate it like you're supposed to it works just fine, giving out good heat because it stays in secondary burn...

Oh... I see... so I do have to "babysit" the stove... that's normal... that the way it's supposed to work. I have to sit there by it and feed it 15 minutes worth of fuel at a time, constantly adjusting the draft, raking coals, and making damn sure the secondary never shuts down. I was under the impression that the secondary burn only around one third of the burn cycle... stupid me, now you teach me it's 100% of the burn cycle and it only last for an hour or so. Yep, stupid me... what was I thinking.

I need to put 2 or 3 little splits in there, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits,open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits,open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits, open the draft to get them going, wait 5 and close the draft a bit, wait 5 and open the draft a little, wait 5 and rake coals forward, add 2 or 3 little splits.........

So, when is it exactly I have a life somewhere other than sitting right next to the stove??
When do I get a little shut-eye... or does burning wood for heat mean I only get to sleep 4½ minutes at a time??
And where in the hell does it say that's how I'm supposed to operate the stove anyway??
Here, let me quote the manual for you...

1. Adjust air control to position H (maximum firing rate)
and open door.
2. Place crumpled newspaper in the centrer of the heater
and criss-cross with several pieces of dry kindling.
Add a few small pieces of dry wood on top.
3. Ignite the paper and close the door.
4. After the fire has established itself, open the door and
add a few small logs. Close door.
5. Begin normal operation after a good coal base exists
and wood has charred.
NORMAL OPERATION
1. Set air control to a desired setting. If smoke pours
down across the glass (waterfall effect) this indicates
you have shut the control down too soon or you are
using too low a setting. The wide range control panel
makes finding the desired setting for your application
easy. As every home's heating needs vary (ie. insu-
lation, windows, climate, etc.) the proper setting can
only be found by trial and error and should be noted
for future burns.
2. To refuel, adjust air control to high, and give the fire
time to brighten. Open the door slowly, this will prevent
backpuffing.
3. Use wood of different shape, diameter and length (up
to 18"). Load your wood endwise and try to place the
logs so that the air can flow between them. Always
use dry wood.
4. Do not load fuel to a height or in such a manner that
would be hazardous when opening the door.
5. For extended or overnight burns, unsplit logs are
preferred. Remember to char the wood completely
on maximum setting before adjusting air control for
overnight burn.

I know that you only say things you agree that you've said, not that you've actually said how does this match with your rantings about gettin' no heat and bein' able to just stick your hand in the firebox above those worthless coals? ...sounds like you're able to make it work no problem, it just requires more involvement than you're willing- or able- to have.

Yeah... no problem spending every waking (and sleeping) moment of my life withing three minutes of the stove
Listen putz... you're the only one here scrambling, mixing 'n' matching, and manipulating words... taking 'em out'a context.
I've stated all along that the damn thing STOPS HEATING WHEN THE SECONDARY STOPS... and with box half full of coals and I can lay my hand on the stove top‼ (and I've stated that several times in the past) Even feeding it small amounts of wood at a time IT WILL STILL FILL WITH COALS, it just takes longer. I ain't going back on anything I've said... and I ain't denying anything I've said.

But... I'll tell you this...
If the above is what "works"... if that normal... if that's how "they" work... if that's what's required to make 'em work...
Than only a total blithering idiot fool would own one. So if that's how yours works... well take it from there...