What to look for when buying a wood stove...

[Fyrebug]

And all the damn things do, is fill up the stove...
Now, I can spend 30 min. stirring them with a stick, and make em hot again, but might freeze to death while doing it...
I'm with spidey on this one... How about a stove that burns the wood, the smoke, AND the coal bed!!! Leaving nothing but ash...
And a warm house...

Guys I dont know what's happening with your stoves. I have an insert and nothing but ashes left if I leave it alone.

 

[Fyrebug]

BS!
Burning 30 pounds of wood over 6 hours at 50% efficiency will keep my house warm for all 6 hours of it.

Just so we understand we are not talking about efficiencies here. You want longer burn times with the same load... Not a problem.

You shoulda bought a catalytic stove...

 

[Whitespider]

I don't remember if you mentioned it or not.
............. why did you ditch your last 'no problems' woodstove?

I mentioned it last year... 18 years after I rebuilt it the steel firebox cracked and the cast ends were starting to warp (it's a bit over 30 years old, rebuilt once, and pretty much outlived it's usefulness and safety).

 

[Hedgerow]

Guys I dont know what's happening with your stoves. I have an insert and nothing but ashes left if I leave it alone.

Yes, as would I... If I left it alone... I'll see if I can explain what it's doing so we're on the same page...
1. I build a fire, and the stove starts to heat up. "All is well"
2. Once the fire is burning well, "very little smoke", and stove is drafting nicely, I situate about 3 or 4 splits of EXTREMELY dry wood,"Because that's all I burn", and close the door...
3. Stove heats up real good... So good in fact, I need to go get shorts and flip flops on in anticipation of reaping the rewards of my fuel supply...
4. House gets nice and warm...(Maybe 78-80) Thermally controlled fan is on high now...
5. Pour a bourbon on the rocks... Grab the phone to see what's blowing up in the chainsaw forum... :msp_rolleyes:
6. Come bed time, the house is comfortable, but blower is back on low and stove is not putting out the heat it was earlier... Problem... When I go to bank it for the night, the fuel ain't done burning. It's in the form of a huge pile of glowing coals. But I want more heat... I can throw more wood on and get it, but the coals never really finish burning, and if I allow them to, the house gets cooler than I'd like in the meantime... My guess is I'm trying to make the stove do more than it's capable of... But when full and rocking, it does all I need and more.

7. I probably need an OWB...

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Whitespider]

Just so we understand we are not talking about efficiencies here. You want longer burn times with the same load... Not a problem.
You shoulda bought a catalytic stove...

NO!
All I want is at least the same amount of heat over the same time period without the damn firebox filling 2/3 full of worthless coals, thereby reducing space for the next fuel load, thereby producing even less heat over the next time period.
How hard is this to understand... let me put it a different way...
60 pounds of wood burning at 50% efficiency over 12 hours will make a whole lot more heat (over that same 12 hours) than 30 pounds of wood burning at 80% efficiency. When trying to heat in sub-zero weather it's BTU's per hour (average) that matter, total BTU's for the entire burn cycle mean nothing if the hourly (average) output can't keep up. Just give me more sustained, consistent heat while consuming the entire fuel load so I can fill the damn thing with just as much fuel as I did last time... and keep your damn efficiency rating, I couldn't give a rat's azz about it.

And the thing is... my previous non-EPA firebox of the same size and a lot less weight did exactly that.

 

[brenndatomu]

I'm gonna make a statement.
It'll probably be the only one on AS in all of 2012 that everybody can agree on.

Fire be complicated!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

(FWIW, I love these "what makes a wood stove work best" threads! :hmm3grin2orange:
Seriously...I do

 

[Fyrebug]

5. Pour a bourbon on the rocks...

Now we get to the root of the problem... why didnja mention this before?

If you drank some decent Canadian Whiskey instead of that plunk your burn time would triple! Scientifimajically proven!

 

[Hedgerow]

Now we get to the root of the problem... why didnja mention this before?

If you drank some decent Canadian Whiskey instead of that plunk your burn time would triple! Scientifimajically proven!

Well? Poor spidey is pouring back beer after beer while sitting on a bucket, stirring his coals and freezing to death doing it...
I think he needs an auto billows to blow on those coals, so the unit can consume the fuel at the same rate as it was earlier...
How's that for an idea...???:msp_thumbup:

 

[cmsmoke]

BS!
Burning 30 pounds of wood over 6 hours at 50% efficiency will keep my house warm for all 6 hours of it.
Burning 30 pounds of wood over 12 hours at 80% efficiency will not keep my house warm for any 6 hours of it... which means I just have to keep adding more wood and in the end I'm still stuffing near 30 pounds of wood in the firebox every 6 hours (until the thing is so full of coals I just have to quit and turn on the gas furnace, wait 3 friggin days for the coals to burn out)... all that "efficiency" is lost because the potential "high" heat from the coals is wasted because they burn to slowly to make enough heat (it doesn't mater how much heat they make over the 3 friggin' days if I have to fire the gas furnace to keep up with heating demand, does it?). Now, if that EPA stove completely burned (consumed coals and all) 30 pounds of wood at 80% efficiency over the same 6 hours as the non-EPA I would agree with you, and I could cut my wood consumption back to 20 pounds every 6 hours... but that ain't the way it works. They rate the EPA box efficiency over the complete burn cycle (i.e. from start to burn-out) just like they do the non-EPA... well heck, if I drive my 4x4 pickup at 65 MPH for 15 minutes and then slow down to 15 MPH for the remainder of the trip, I can average 40 miles per gallon of gas no problem, but I wouldn't consider that a very efficient use of it... And that's exactly what they're doing with the EPA stove ratings.


It was what I suspected all along... I've now tested my suspicions... and I was correct.
One thing is for sure... I'll never fork out hard cold cash for one.
I'll take the more efficient "heater" over the more efficient "burner" any day!

You call that a fair test? How could that be equal? Do all the tests at 6 hrs...Then see which one comes out on top. If you can't then there are other issues! :chatter:
What happened the other week with your thread on EPA stoves when you accidentally fell asleep with the air supply opened. The stove did what is was supposed to...Make heat! Accidental find or not, you admitted to possibly not firing it correctly. It sounded to me like it was making plenty of heat over a long period of time and maybe you had it figured out.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Caddy's used forced air nuthin.... all natural draft. Kuuma does not have electronically controlled draft either. We both use natural draft.

Draft is what comes out the pipe. You may confusing it with primary air intake which both Kuuma and Caddy, control electronically.

I apologize for that, I was talking forced induction, and thought it sounded like the Caddy had an induction blower on it in Layne's post.

Lots more thoughts on where this thread has gone since that quote, but I gotta head for work.

Spidey, wanna sell that stove? Give me a price, maybe I'll drive down and pick it up. Might even help ya fab up it's replacement if the beer is as cold as you are...

 

[brenndatomu]

Something to consider is that if you can cut off or cut back the secondary air and some of the airwash going to the glass you can 'burn down' those coals faster(after secondary burn has subsided, of course!). I experimented with secondary air control on our Jotul 600 four or five years ago by being able to cut off most of the secondary air to the tubes but not the air wash. It did make some difference but in our case not enough to be worth it.

If I remember correctly at least 50% of the BTU's in wood is in those coals and the rest in volatile gasses. Likely varies by wood type.

What would really be nice is to have the secondary air cut back by some type of automatic system that was adjustable time wise.....like three or four hours after loading the stove or longer.

I think that is what Mr. Lamppa is doing. Automatic compooter, I know spidey wants one of those on his stovace! :hmm3grin2orange:
Speakin of compooters, how ya likin that "smart" phone by now spidey?

 

[Whitespider]

You call that a fair test? How could that be equal? Do all the tests at 6 hrs...Then see which one comes out on top. If you can't then there are other issues!

I can't... the EPA firebox won't consume the complete fuel load in those 6 hours... there's still a bunch of unconsumed coals left. And the deeper the ash/coal bed when I start, the more unconsumed fuel left at the end of 6 hours. I can't do what you call a "fair" test because this piece-o-crap won't completely consume the fuel load in two or three days... let alone 6 hours. That's my whole damn point!

What happened the other week with your thread on EPA stoves when you accidentally fell asleep with the air supply opened. The stove did what is was supposed to...Make heat! Accidental find or not, you admitted to possibly not firing it correctly. It sounded to me like it was making plenty of heat over a long period of time and maybe you had it figured out.

I thought that was the answer, but sadly I was wrong. At that time the firebox had been completely cleaned out and I had started a fresh fire (no coals)... but once the firebox started building up the coal bed again it went right back to it's miserable way of (not) burning them.

I've thought I had it figured out a few times... but in retrospect, every time was just after throwing in the towel and letting it sit for a couple days so I could clean it out (and there's still hot coals buried in the ash). It works pretty good after completely cleaning out the firebox... for a day, maybe. But once that ash/coal bed starts building up, all bets are off... because no air can get to any of them except the top layer. It's flat a stupid design... but it satisfies the EPA. I've even started cleaning out what ash I can every single morning... but that only slows the build-up of coals, it doen't eliminate the problem.

The problem is no air can get under the coal bed... it really is that simple.
I'm just gonna' haf'ta haul it out of the house and put the cuttin' torch and welder to it and install a grate system... it really is that simple.

 

[Whitespider]

Speakin of compooters, how ya likin that "smart" phone by now spidey?

It's the most baffling piece of electronics I've ever had... but I'm slowly catchin' on :msp_rolleyes:

 

[laynes69]

I still do not understand the concept of worthless coals.... Your not going to have a firebox full of flames from the start to end. That coal bed accounts for a good percentage of heat from the overall process. If you have to reload on a huge bed of coals to get heat, your stove is too small. You should be able to open the damper and let those coals do some heating while they burn down. Adding wood to a large coal bed not only wastes wood by burning it up faster, but also attributes to a coaling issue. Wood burns in stages over a period of time. Once that fire starts hitting the coaling stage and secondary combustion almost stops, open the damper (air control) on the stove.

Of course with all that said, we do have a secondary heat exchanger. That's probably a large source of heat from the coals.

 

[cmsmoke]

Do you have a damper installed in your flue pipe and do you use it?

 

[Whitespider]

I still do not understand the concept of worthless coals.... If you have to reload on a huge bed of coals to get heat, your stove is too small.

That's just BS!
Don't you get it? There ain't any air getting to the damn coals... no air, no combustion - no combustion, no heat. Why is that so hard to understand?

You should be able to open the damper and let those coals do some heating while they burn down.

Yeah, you would think so... but the air comes in the firebox above the coals, so it can't get to the coals below the top layer, and once the top coals ash-over very little air is getting to them... no air, no combustion - no combustion, no heat. Why is that so hard to understand?

Adding wood to a large coal bed not only wastes wood by burning it up faster, but also attributes to a coaling issue.

Well, at least we agree on something.

Wood burns in stages over a period of time. Once that fire starts hitting the coaling stage and secondary combustion almost stops, open the damper (air control) on the stove.

Why? None of it gets to the coals... believe me, I've tried it... it barely makes any difference at all, and the deeper the coal bed the less difference it makes. And besides, why should I have to babysit the stove... if the damn fire burned on a grate and air was directed under it, then air could get to the coals the the problem would be solved.

You're not getting this are you? The primary combustion air comes in above the glass door and washes down it (air wash), it warms up some as it does and reverses direction moving back up and out the flue... little, if any actually makes it to the coal bed, and what does just flows across the top of it for a short distance before it also warms and rises out the flue. There is a small (very small) amount of boost air that comes in the front, about 3 inches above the floor... it also flows across the top of the coals for a short distance, warms and rises out the flue. Over several hours (like over night) the front 1/4 of the fire box will eventually consume the coals... but only the coals exposed on top get any air. The air entering the firebox does little, if anything, to boost combustion of the coals... rather it just robs what tiny amount of heat they are making and carries it out the flue. Think of a fire pit with a deep bed of coals in the bottom covered with a few inches of ash... yeah, if you put your hand real close you can feel a little heat, but it ain't enough to warm a hotdog unless you stir them up. If you stir them up they'll make heat... but only until they cover-over with ash again, and then the heat is gone. THEY AIN'T GETTING ANY AIR!! This is what's happening in the EPA firebox that burns directly on the firebrick... THE COALS AIN'T GETTING ANY AIR! Yeah, there will still be coals after three damn days... but the stove didn't radiate enough heat over those three days to warm a hotdog.

 

[Whitespider]

Do you have a damper installed in your flue pipe and do you use it?

Yes I do and yes I do.

 

[laynes69]

Well let's see.... A shared flue+flue damper= Poor Draft= A Poor Burn. Our furnace has an airwash over the entire glass door just like your stove. When our damper is open, the coals burn white from front to back. The difference we have a 32' chimney that's lined with a rigid liner. Even without a flue damper or baro we go overnight on a 3/4 load. When I wake up the entire firebox from floor to top of coals is glowing bright and the front half of the firebox is a fluffy ash, burning from the front to back. Now you have a shorter chimney, that's shared and a flue damper. Our draft will suck the door closed. You do not have enough draft! If grates are an end all of all problems, why don't stove manufacturers use them more often?

 

[Steve NW WI]

And yet somehow, magic I guess, you can take a bunch of "worthless" coals, put em in a hole, set a pig on top, cover, and have a tasty roasted pig in a few hours.

Must be some heat there, even without air under em.

 

[chadihman]

Del,
You live in an area of the country with climate much different than where I live.
It won't make any difference how slow I talk, you refuse to have an open mind and understand the difference in requirements... the result is you'll just never "get it".

Easy, Can't we all just be friends? I'm positive everybody sucks at at leat one thing.