What to look for when buying a wood stove...

[Fyrebug]

Yeah laynes69, that's the "boost" air I've been talking about in this thread. It's actually a single hole in the square air supply tube (under the door)... that air supply tube also feeds the door "air wash".

When testing for EPA, lab protocols requires the door be opened for only 5 minutes on initial start up. This is actually timed with a chronometer. Problem is... most emissions (smoke) occurs during start up. When you close the door you now limit the oxygen to the fire thus most likely failing EPA.

The 'air boost' or 'pilot' holes you often find below the door is a way to inject more oxygen during start up. It's not really designed for burning down coals although it helps.

I think what you are experiencing Spidey is really an expectations let-down rather than stove malfunction or product design failure. Many thousands of folks likely have the model you have and love it! It could be in your mind you had other or rather 'grander' expectations and its not living up to them.

Also keep in mind wood is a non-standard fuel. That is, an appliance burning ability will vary with each log/load/installation/day/user. It could be your installation is also affecting how it burns. Be that as it may, if you don't like it you may have to look for something else.

How about a pellet stove? Put it on a thermostat and forget it... same heat output all the time.

 

[Whitespider]

I think what you are experiencing Spidey is really an expectations let down rather than stove malfunction or product design failure.
How about a pellet stove? Put it on a thermostat and forget it...

I'd be more willing to accept that explanation if others posting in this thread (and a couple others recently) hadn't expressed the same exact concerns, irritations and disappointments. It seems I'm not the only one experiencing this same exact issue... but, for the most part, I'm the only one calling a-spade-a-spade and pointing it out is a design flaw. And I'm surely the only one equating it to the necessity of meeting EPA standards. I didn't have grandiose expectations (after all, it is an EPA firebox), but I did expect it to run at least as well (to my mind, as efficiently) as the old-smoke dragon... and I don't believe that's expecting too much by any stretch.

As far as the pellet stove and thermostat... In all seriousness, there are three major reasons I didn't buy a full-fledged wood-fired furnace when the old conversion firebox cracked. Of course one was price, way more than I wanted to spend (and I got this EPA box for free). Another reason was because most are really way more than is needed in this "smallish" old home. And the other reason was because I just don't want anything that requires electricity to operate properly. Yes, I use the existing gas furnace blower to force air through my plenum... but I designed the system so it will also run without it. Without the blower running, convection carries the heat up into the duct-work and into the house above... not as effectively, but it works without danger or issue when the power goes out (not an uncommon occurrence). A few years ago we used the old smoke-dragon that way for 10 days after a huge ice storm took the power out. Computer controls, forced air combustion, automatic dampers, blowers, thermostats, and whatnot all require electricity... thanks, but no thanks. We live on the edge of society... almost anti-social... electricity is nice to have, but we try not to depend on it any more than we have to.

 

[cmsmoke]

Back to the original topic...I would like to see a self diagnostic system as standard equipment. Things to be included would be moisture content of the wood, draft measurement, plugged orifice and/ or catalytic converter, over and underfire, amount of ash build up, when to empty them and lastly when to put more wood on. That should make things much easier.

 

[stihly dan]

When testing for EPA, lab protocols requires the door be opened for only 5 minutes on initial start up. This is actually timed with a chronometer. Problem is... most emissions (smoke) occurs during start up. When you close the door you now limit the oxygen to the fire thus most likely failing EPA.

The 'air boost' or 'pilot' holes you often find below the door is a way to inject more oxygen during start up. It's not really designed for burning down coals although it helps.

I think what you are experiencing Spidey is really an expectations let-down rather than stove malfunction or product design failure. Many thousands of folks likely have the model you have and love it! It could be in your mind you had other or rather 'grander' expectations and its not living up to them.

Also keep in mind wood is a non-standard fuel. That is, an appliance burning ability will vary with each log/load/installation/day/user. It could be your installation is also affecting how it burns. Be that as it may, if you don't like it you may have to look for something else.

How about a pellet stove? Put it on a thermostat and forget it... same heat output all the time.

Thats just not cool. It is definatly the stove. Spidey might be pig headed, but he is right more often than not. Doe's his homework and all. Also it's stove's like his that have people going to pellets. Wood burning was horrible in my epa stove. If I didn't see first hand other name brand quality stoves working great and easy, I would have had the same thoughts of Epa stoves. Now that I have my quality Kumma, wood is easy and fun again.

 

[Hedgerow]

When testing for EPA, lab protocols requires the door be opened for only 5 minutes on initial start up. This is actually timed with a chronometer. Problem is... most emissions (smoke) occurs during start up. When you close the door you now limit the oxygen to the fire thus most likely failing EPA.

The 'air boost' or 'pilot' holes you often find below the door is a way to inject more oxygen during start up. It's not really designed for burning down coals although it helps.

I think what you are experiencing Spidey is really an expectations let-down rather than stove malfunction or product design failure. Many thousands of folks likely have the model you have and love it! It could be in your mind you had other or rather 'grander' expectations and its not living up to them.

Also keep in mind wood is a non-standard fuel. That is, an appliance burning ability will vary with each log/load/installation/day/user. It could be your installation is also affecting how it burns. Be that as it may, if you don't like it you may have to look for something else.

How about a pellet stove? Put it on a thermostat and forget it... same heat output all the time.

All I saw in that post was "pellets"...
Bit your tongue!!!!
Pellets are EVIL!!!!
And stuff...

 

[Whitespider]

Trying to pull ash from a stove that is fired up and has coals must be a real pain in the ass without an ash pan.

What happens is the ash and coals keep getting mixed together, making it impossible to separate them. Every time you stir them, pull them forward, level them to add fuel, etc. they get mixed up, the ash insulates the coals from getting air and I end-up with this mass of hot (more like warm) coals and ash several inches deep. Over the course of a week it gets deep enough to reduce fuel capacity by at least a third... sometimes by half.
The answer seems to be what I've been doing this week... push as much ash as I can down the clean-out first thing every morning (before pulling the coals forward). By keeping the floor clean the coals laying on the front 1/2 to 2/3's are mostly consumed, except for a few little hot embers. I end up with about a cup of ash and small embers in the drawer, which I don't worry about because the drawer vents through stove air intakes... it took all week to fill the drawer. Then I pull coals (and ash) laying in the back forward so the rear half is spotless clean before loading.
I've been getting more complete burns and better heat from the coal bed... because everything is getting better air. The thing is, it's a complete 180[sup]o[/sup] from the manual which says,
"Caution: Ashes are to be removed only when the heater is cold.
Whenever ashes get 3 to 4 inches deep in your firebox, and when fire has burned down and cooled, remove excess ashes. Leave an ash bed approximately 1" (25 mm) deep on the firebox bottom to help maintain a hot charcoal bed."
If I follow those instructions I end-up with a bed of coals (mixed with ash) 6 or 8 inches deep... and they take days to burn-out.
I'm not 100% sure that's the answer though... it's been warm this week and we're only loading twice a day, first thing in the morning and after dark. I'm not sure that will work when we're loading more often, burning 24/7.

Our stove runs better when the ash pan is not full of ashes up to the grate. Having that air space under the fire even though air does not enter the firebox from under the grate likely still allows for some air movement in that area.

Sure it does, convection will pull air under the grate and up through the coals/fire. I've already accepted that this box will require a bit more tending and maintenance to keep it running right; So I'm thinking a flip-up grate about an inch off the floor (maybe even leave the firebrick) that would allow me to "flip" it up anytime (separating ash from coals) and push ash down the clean-out... maybe every day/morning. I could probably block off the "boost" air, as it would no longer be needed if air could get under the fire.

 

[lampmfg]

Our 2 cents...

You are absolutely correct when you say that the way the furnace is operated, the type of wood used, and the moisture content of the wood can greatly influence the results you get from your furnace in the real world. The emissions and the efficiency of the furnace are impacted by those variables. Mixed results can and will be obtained using the same furnace with different operators.

This is exactly why we have designed and developed our Vapor-Fire furnaces. They offset the variables, as much as possible, so that the emissions and test results that were obtained by the EPA certified lab would still be close to the same when anyone uses it in the real world.

The equation for a successful clean and efficient burn is as follows: Seasoned wood (10-30% Moisture) + correct operation using owner's manual + proper furnace design = clean and efficient burn. The proper draft (.03-.06) is pretty standard throughout the industry and we use a barometric damper so the draft doesn't exceed .06. Most manufacturers toss out wet, unseasoned wood for usage because you can't burn wet wood. When a fire truck goes to a fire it uses water to put the fire out and the same thing would happen inside a furnace fire chamber.

Seasoned wood from 10-30% still greatly influences a burn, but this variable is controlled in our Vapor-Fire by adding or subtracting combustion air by the automatic electronic control. The Operation variable is also controlled by the electronic control which adjusts the combustion air automatically for you. All the operator does is set a dial from low to high on our control in relation to the weather conditions. The lower the setting, the slower the burn and the less heat you get and the higher the setting, the faster the burn to get more heat. It's simple to operate and takes the guess work out of burning wood. It never smolders the wood for hour on end like many other furnaces, causing creosote. The Vapor-Fire has the proper fire chamber desgn that promotes and enhances the burning of the gases yielding wood gasification, front to back. Test results done by Interek confirmed that.

Consequently, these three variables are controlled automatically for the operator of our Vapor-Fire furnaces, resulting in a clean and efficient burn time after time.

Why some manufacturers have to resort to catalytic combustors for cleaner burns is beyond my comprehension, when our Vapor-Fire furnaces have less emissions without even using one. VF (.01 - .03 gr/mj VS .30 gr/mj). Also the combustors can plug up, deteriorate, and are very costly to replace.

 

[Fyrebug]

I'd be more willing to accept that explanation if others posting in this thread (and a couple others recently) hadn't expressed the same exact concerns, irritations and disappointments. It seems I'm not the only one experiencing this same exact issue...

3 or 4 guys who are disappointed does not form a consensus. There must be a million or more EPA wood stoves sold since the 80's and for the most part people are thrilled with them. Dont trust me or believe me on this, just read consumers reviews on various web sites and forums. Also if everyone was as unhappy as some here, the whole category would have just folded a long time ago.

Any appliances must match the users expectations and requirements. Nobody is happy using a smart car if they really needed a pick-up truck.

Also, the topic of the thread is, "what to look for when buying a wood stove", not a wood furnace since they are a different beasts. You cant compare both since a wood stoves has no moving parts and is inherently different in design and operations.

If someone wants to start another thread of "what to look for when buying a wood furnace" that would be more to the point if you want to talk about furnaces and boilers.

 

[Whitespider]

3 or 4 guys who are disappointed does not form a consensus.

WHAT?! 3 or 4 guys? Well maybe they're not all necessarily "disappointed"... maybe they don't know they should be "disappointed"... maybe they've just learned to live with it, decided it-is-what-it-is.

Here's just the comments I came up with in this thread and from a five minute search of some other threads...

I count just a few more than 3 or 4 guys.

Grate with ash-tray below.

Agreed... Some sort of ash removal leaving coals is a MUST!!!! … Just a grate to hold the wood… ...when burning hard during cold weather, it fills up with ash and unburnt coals fast!!! No good way to get em out... And all the damn things do, is fill up the stove...
Now, I can spend 30 min. stirring them with a stick, and make em hot again, but might freeze to death while doing it... I'm with spidey on this one...

Whitespider is accurate on both accounts. ... Air needs to come in low, not over the top.

I hear you on the coal build up though. It is not often a problem with our Jotul Firelight 600CB but in the dead of winter after long periods of hard firing coal build up can occur. … Another thing about having an ash pan and a grate in the bottom of a stove. Our stove runs better when the ash pan is not full of ashes up to the grate.

I have a Pacific Energy wood burning insert. Would I get another one? Probably not. I now realize that I need something with an ash pan at least. The build up of coals and ash is REALLY annoying. I would say that I on average I loose 1/4 to 1/5 of my firebox to freaking coals that wont burn down.

I had an epa stove for last yr only, I had the exact problems you are having. I HATED that stove. It was a Country flame, by American Energy, based out of missouri.

I was trying to make the point that if air was supplied to the coals, they would burn and supply heat and not just sit there.

And here’s from some other threads…

I've been burning my new fireplace insert hotter. I've noticed that the amount of hot coals has been building as a result. If I don't put more wood in and try to burn them down the temp drops in the room, even with the air supply wide open... If I add more wood it seems like I'm just adding to coal buildup.

I try to remove some ash everyday in the morning to keep it as low as possible to pile more wood in when I need to bank the fire.

When the coals get so deep that I can't get enough wood in to make the heat I need (takes close to a week), the next morning instead of loading up I stir the coals, open the air wide open, and let the gas heat take over for a few hours...

I try my best to burn in complete cycles. This makes the temperature of the house go up and down, but sort of mitigates too much coal buildup.

I have a Lopi Liberty and when I burn it hard I have the same problem.

Try this when your last load of wood has burned down and the coals are really building up in the stove.

Same drill here.. The coals pile up at the back of my stove while the ash falls to the front.

I always rake them to the air supply, they will burn to ash. It would be handy to have an efficient separator though.

when it gets cold enough to be running 24/7, I'll clean out the ash in the morning when I can sort the coals out...

When I burn just oak I have that problem with coals build up with not much heat output.

My mother-in-law lives across the road from us...and both have Pacific Energy EPA stoves, different models, same fireboxes... MIL always has a problem with coal build up, emptys coals and ash every few days and often throws out good coals to make more room for wood.

I have an insert, but I clean mine out, otherwise the old ashes begin to insulate the bottom of the box and reduce heat transfer...

 

[Hedgerow]

WHAT?! 3 or 4 guys? Well maybe they're not all necessarily "disappointed"... maybe they don't know they should be "disappointed"... maybe they've just learned to live with it, decided it-is-what-it-is.

Here's just the comments I came up with in this thread and from a five minute search of some other threads...

I count just a few more than 3 or 4 guys.









And here’s from some other threads…

I have just learned to live with it...
But that was the point of this thread right???
What to look for in a new stove...
These guys got the clean burning thing down to a science... And that's good...
Now all we gotta do is handle the ashes conveniently...
Yes???

I think some of the larger units are already doing this to an extent...

 

[EXCALIBER]

Maybe check out the thread I did yesterday with pictures and videos of a normal burn cycle in my stove. I have been more than happy with mine and would buy another without any hesitation, except for maybe I wouldn't get the convection deck on this one due to more room to cook on it. However I bought the stove for heating, not cooking. http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/217824.htm

 

[Fyrebug]

WHAT?! 3 or 4 guys? Well maybe they're not all necessarily "disappointed"... maybe they don't know they should be "disappointed"... maybe they've just learned to live with it, decided it-is-what-it-is.

Here's just the comments I came up with in this thread and from a five minute search of some other threads...

I count just a few more than 3 or 4 guys.

My bad.... 12 out of a few millions....

 

[Whitespider]

My bad.... 12 out of a few millions....

Including myself I count twenty, not twelve.
And "a few millions" have not been poled by this thread, or for that matter this board.
The twenty are just those who bothered to post their experience, after bothering to read the thread(s)... it doesn't even represent a poling of the members of this board.
Maybe twenty "does not form a consensus"... but it's certainly enough to cause me to raise an eyebrow.
I will say this... there were not anywhere close to twenty people who came out and said they were (as you put it) "thrilled".

 

[Fyrebug]

With all due respect this thread is getting a bit silly...

Unhappy people are more likely to complain about their experience.

Yes I agree.. If a wood stove would have an automatic wood moisture meter checker, draft inducer, auto ash remover, coal stocker, self adjust speed blower, wood splitter /dryer/ loader built in, it would be great!

Unfortunately as you said... it is what it is.

In the meantime, you may want to consider an oil/propane/gas furnace... (no ashes)


If a man could have half of his wishes, he would double his troubles.
Benjamin Franklin

 

[Hedgerow]

Maybe check out the thread I did yesterday with pictures and videos of a normal burn cycle in my stove. I have been more than happy with mine and would buy another without any hesitation, except for maybe I wouldn't get the convection deck on this one due to more room to cook on it. However I bought the stove for heating, not cooking. http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/217824.htm

Last I checked, the big blaze king was a cat stove, and had a 4+ cubic foot firebox...
I think that's in a whole different category than most "wood stove's".
Massive fuel capacity+airtight firebox = good regulation and Looooong burn times...
But without that cat, it would be a creosote producing machine... Yes???
What's the expected service life of the cat? And the cost of replacement?

 

[Hedgerow]

With all due respect this thread is getting a bit silly...

Unhappy people are more likely to complain about their experience.

Yes I agree.. If a wood stove would have an automatic wood moisture meter checker, draft inducer, auto ash remover, coal stocker, self adjust speed blower, wood splitter /dryer/ loader built in, it would be great!

Unfortunately as you said... it is what it is.

In the meantime, you may want to consider an oil/propane/gas furnace... (no ashes)


If a man could have half of his wishes, he would double his troubles.
Benjamin Franklin

What??? I thought you guys made one of those..???:msp_confused:
:big_smile:

But seriously, is the longer sustained burn times the advantage of the cat stoves???
Can they really utilize the smoke from a heavily loaded stove with the air regulated down???
If so, what are the drawbacks???

 

[EXCALIBER]

Life expectancy of a cat is anywhere from 5-10 years or more. Could also be less just depending on how you treat it just like anything else. :I believe when I bought mine it was pro rated warranty for 6 years, although I think they now have a 10 year warranty on their cats. I have had mine for 3 years now and burn 24/7 (only source of heat) from beginning of October to whenever it starts warming up enough that I don't feel cold. Say 7 or 8 months a year. New replacement cost is a little under 300 bucks. Not super cheap, but I would be glad to pay the $300 every 10 years just to save that much money in heat, plus have a stove that keeps the house warm all the time, not like a yo-yo like most stoves, hot then cold then hot.

I would say it is not like most stoves, true. Which only begs the question, why most stoves would not be like it? Long burn time, clean, and efficient with large firebox requiring less frequent loading, and ash removal. So my question is why would you buy a different stove? For instance, if I wanted to drive from here to Mexico, the cheapest and most comfortable way, why would I drive my deuce when I could drive my Cavalier and get five times the mileage, fill up less often, save money, and be more comfortable? Same with a stove. I bought a stove to heat my house with the least amount of input from me, as I spend more time at work than at home. Even if I was home I do not enjoy having to load the stove all the time (twice a day), once a day is enough for me. So why buy a small stove with a small firebox that needs constant tending? Guess I don't understand.

Hedgerow: drawbacks are you can't burn garbage in your stove, just good seasoned wood. A few more steps on firing up the stove vs non cat. Cat need replaced eventually. That is about it. Check out the thread I started about the EPA burn cycle there is a video showing the cat's effect on the smoke out the stack and thus burning the smoke.

 

[Hedgerow]

Life expectancy of a cat is anywhere from 5-10 years or more. Could also be less just depending on how you treat it just like anything else. :I believe when I bought mine it was pro rated warranty for 6 years, although I think they now have a 10 year warranty on their cats. I have had mine for 3 years now and burn 24/7 (only source of heat) from beginning of October to whenever it starts warming up enough that I don't feel cold. Say 7 or 8 months a year. New replacement cost is a little under 300 bucks. Not super cheap, but I would be glad to pay the $300 every 10 years just to save that much money in heat, plus have a stove that keeps the house warm all the time, not like a yo-yo like most stoves, hot then cold then hot.

I would say it is not like most stoves, true. Which only begs the question, why most stoves would not be like it? Long burn time, clean, and efficient with large firebox requiring less frequent loading, and ash removal. So my question is why would you buy a different stove? For instance, if I wanted to drive from here to Mexico, the cheapest and most comfortable way, why would I drive my deuce when I could drive my Cavalier and get five times the mileage, fill up less often, save money, and be more comfortable? Same with a stove. I bought a stove to heat my house with the least amount of input from me, as I spend more time at work than at home. Even if I was home I do not enjoy having to load the stove all the time (twice a day), once a day is enough for me. So why buy a small stove with a small firebox that needs constant tending? Guess I don't understand.

Hedgerow: drawbacks are you can't burn garbage in your stove, just good seasoned wood. A few more steps on firing up the stove vs non cat. Cat need replaced eventually. That is about it. Check out the thread I started about the EPA burn cycle there is a video showing the cat's effect on the smoke out the stack and thus burning the smoke.

I just saw that vid... And that's what got me thinking about the cat... Where is the smoke going??? Being super heated and burnt? If so, that's good... Are you able to capitalize on the heat from burning the smoke?? If so, that's also good...
You ask why someone would buy a different stove??? Well?? Good question... Unless you're like me, and simply inherited a stove that was actually an upgrade from what I had previously, from someone who was tired of having a wood stove...
Now when I replace it, that's a different story... I've seen the secondary burn tubes in action, and they work, but just wasn't impressed by the smaller unit's ability to be a primary long burn type heat source.

 

[Whitespider]

I've seen the secondary burn tubes in action, and they work, but just wasn't impressed by the smaller unit's ability to be a primary long burn type heat source.

I agree!
Mine isn't actually "smaller" than what it replaced... but like you, I am not impressed in the least.
When it's cold outside, the last thing I care about is how much smoke is going out the flue... heck, I don't even care how much wood I'm burnin' as long as it's warm inside. Fiddling with raking coals around, constantly opening and closing controls, cleaning out ash daily, and who knows what else just to keep it heating ain't my idea of a wood burning heating appliance... I call it a pain-in-the-azz!

 

[Fyrebug]

I agree!
Mine isn't actually "smaller" than what it replaced... but like you, I am not impressed in the least.

You said it was free... dont look at a gift horse in the mouth! You would be much happier with a bigger stove or with a cat.

What you have is too small to be considered a 'primary' heat source. We get it...