What to look for when buying a wood stove...

[cmsmoke]

Using the damper in the flue pipe could be the problem. Maybe you know this, but it may be worth the explanation. The old stove made better heat while using the damper to keep the heat from escaping up the flue. It had no internal baffling to help grab the heat. Also the old stove probably leaked intake air so bad that shutting off the air supply through whatever control it had, didn't do much for throttling without restricting the flue opening.
Flue temperatures are nowhere close to that on the new stove because it captures most of the escaping heat. The new stove is also air tight, other than the air it can draw to the secondary air burn area. These stoves are meant to be controlled by incoming air only and can not achieve the flow characteristics inside the fire box that the manufacturer intended, while using a flue pipe damper. I imagine alot of this depends on velocity as well...to a certain extent. Don't confuse this with the damper at the top of the stove (if so equipped). The flue can also cool down enough to loose much of the draft needed for complete combustion (if you try to hold too much back).
Think of it this way, have you ever had a spark arresting screen clog up on a weed eater or chainsaw? It suffers performance or won't run at all, because if it can't get rid of the spent gasses, it wont draw any fresh air in.
Try opening the flue draft and control the stove with its air regulator. Make sure the draft handle is directly connected to the flapper. I had this happen and wasn't opening or closing it at all. If you have a spark arresting screen on your chimney cap...make sure it isn't clogged as well. I don't know if you have a cap, just throwing it out there. I believe any stove, EPA or not could burn a load in 6 hrs. if it is opened up and given a chance.
We have a stove at work that has firebricks for a base and it will burn for half the winter without the need to clean ashes. It doesn't burn constantly, but we try to use it as much as we can. I assume that the installed plenum doesn't interfere with the incoming airflow in any way, be it a restriction or air inducing effect from the fan.
Give it a try...if you haven't allready and let us know.

I also have a stove at home with a grate, but leave the ash choke them over to utilize the vents on top of the grates, when burning wood. When I burn coal they get cleaned off. Wood is meant to have air on top...coal from the bottom. While I like the option in my stove...it would reduce the firebox size in yours, unless you have an ash pan underneath that could be used.

I knew he would leave before I was done typing...Spidey, Where did you go?

 

[laynes69]

Using the damper in the flue pipe could be the problem. Maybe you know this, but it may be worth the explanation. The old stove made better heat while using the damper to keep the heat from escaping up the flue. It had no internal baffling to help grab the heat. Also the old stove probably leaked intake air so bad that shutting off the air supply through whatever control it had, didn't do much for throttling without restricting the flue opening.
Flue temperatures are nowhere close to that on the new stove because it captures most of the escaping heat. The new stove is also air tight, other than the air it can draw to the secondary air burn area. These stoves are meant to be controlled by incoming air only and can not achieve the flow characteristics inside the fire box that the manufacturer intended, while using a flue pipe damper. I imagine alot of this depends on velocity as well...to a certain extent. Don't confuse this with the damper at the top of the stove (if so equipped). The flue can also cool down enough to loose much of the draft needed for complete combustion (if you try to hold too much back).
Think of it this way, have you ever had a spark arresting screen clog up on a weed eater or chainsaw? It suffers performance or won't run at all, because if it can't get rid of the spent gasses, it wont draw any fresh air in.
Try opening the flue draft and control the stove with its air regulator. Make sure the draft handle is directly connected to the flapper. I had this happen and wasn't opening or closing it at all. If you have a spark arresting screen on your chimney cap...make sure it isn't clogged as well. I don't know if you have a cap, just throwing it out there. I believe any stove, EPA or not could burn a load in 6 hrs. if it is opened up and given a chance.
We have a stove at work that has firebricks for a base and it will burn for half the winter without the need to clean ashes. It doesn't burn constantly, but we try to use it as much as we can. I assume that the installed plenum doesn't interfere with the incoming airflow in any way, be it a restriction or air inducing effect from the fan.
Give it a try...if you haven't allready and let us know.

Good Post!

To add to this, spider maybe temporarily cap the other flue just to experiment. I know some prefer a bed of ash, I do not. If I do keep some ash in the Furnace, I dont drag the rake against the floor of the firebox. If too much ash is mixed with the coals, they will accumulate and not burn correctly. I know there's those including me that will sound like a broken record, but the advanced design of today's stoves require a strong draft. We had problems initially when we first bought our furnace with a complete burn. The chimney was too large and the liner solved the problem.

 

[laynes69]

I'd be interesting in knowing what the draft measured when the stove is idling with this large bed of coals that will not burn.

That was my thought also. A simple reading from a manometer would tell alot. It doesn't take much air into a flue to spoil draft.

 

[Whitespider]

Guys... this ain't my first dance.
I have plenty of draft. I can close the flue damper near 3/4's of the way with the door wide open and not get even a single whiff of smoke in the house. If I leave the damper wide open the draft actually tries to close the door when it's cracked open. I installed the flue damper when I installed this "stovace" because I knew from past experience my old brick chimney (that runs up the center of the house) sucks like an industrial vacuum. I use the flue damper to reduce the draft... I slowly close it until I see a tiny bit of smoke exit the open door, then back it back open a bit. I've also experimented with setting it everywhere between wide open and fully closed... with no improvement (relating to the coal bed) of any sort. And yes, the firebox still produces secondary burn even with the damper fully closed (although it is somewhat subdued). I've found that about half-way closed is the best setting for this firebox (the previous box ran best with it near fully closed).

And for everyone's information... out here in the county where I live a shared chimney is entirely within code as long as the dimensions are correct for the exhaust pipes entering it. That's also been hashed-out before on this board.

And Steve NW WI, I'm sure my hotdog would warm-up just fine inside the firebox (like your covered pig)... but that ain't the same as making the firebox radiate heat into a room. Not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison, is it? We ain't cooking pig inside the firebox... we're trying to heat the space outside it... correct?

 

[user 75021]

opcorn:

 

[EXCALIBER]

Ok here is my problem with the grate idea. You put wood on the grate, thus elevating the wood, thus allowing air to rush in from underneath the wood, thus burning faster, and burning all the wood. Ashes drop to the bottom so wood can burn. Now here is where the problem is; now that you have elevated the wood, you can not put as much wood in the stove, thus less btu's, thus less heat per burn, thus less burn time. Now after a couple of loadings the ash has now reached the grate, no longer allowing the extra air to rush in from underneath. Now we are back to your original problem. I guess you could elevate the grate about 10 inches from the bottom of the stove allowing more burn cycles before you needed to clean the stove out, but you can now only load I'm guessing 1/5 the wood you normally would. So you will be loading more often than ever.

I guess I am not against buying something, knowing I am going to modify it to fit my needs. I do it all the time. My complaint is, when I buy something I realize that the object I am buying is not designed to be used for my retrofitted project, and do not expect it to function as it was originally intended. I also make sure the object I buy is close to what I need so the littlest amount of mods are necessary. For instance I needed a off road capable, tough, dependable truck for getting hauling firewood and other things, thus I bought a 1971 deuce 6x6. Works great for my needs! I however, did not go out and buy a chevy Cavalier, swap the tires on it with 44 inch Super Swamper Boggers, install a blown 427, cut off the trunk and half the roof, remove the rear seat and fill it with wood. Why? Can that be done? Sure it can, but why would you try to make something designed for mileage up and down the highway, into an off road truck. Hmm...maybe just buy the truck the first time, be happy with it performing as what you wanted, a truck. My point? Spider, you are asking a wood stove to be a wood furnace, then cussing it for being a stove. Isn't that what you bought, didn't it say stove right on it? My suggestion is perhaps, and this is way out on a limb, buy a wood furnace to use as a wood furnace? I know radical thinking. You cussing EPA and the stove for your misuse of the product, makes about as much sense as complaining because its dark, instead of just flipping on a light switch.

 

[cmsmoke]

Did you leave the flue damper opened for a whole burn cycle and vary your burn technique over a period of days? Sometimes we are prone to change too many variables at once and learn nothing. I'm talking from experience. It happens sometimes.

 

[Whitespider]

Spider, you are asking a wood stove to be a wood furnace, then cussing it for being a stove.

Oh good lord… forget about how I’m using it. If it was sitting in my living room being used as a full-fledged “stove” I’d be just as disappointed… probably even more so. Heck, I’d have thrown it out in the yard by now. (By-the-way, I didn’t pay a nickel for it)

To gain something you must give-up something… for example, to gain fuel efficiency you must give-up horsepower. Why is it so hard to believe that if you want lower emissions from a wood burning appliance you have to give-up something in exchange? We all know everything in life is is a trade-off... except for some it seems to be everything except a wood burning appliance I guess.

Did you leave the flue damper opened for a whole burn cycle and vary your burn technique over a period of days? Sometimes we are prone to change too many variables at once and learn nothing. I'm talking from experience. It happens sometimes.

This ain’t my first dance.


Guys, stop trying to find fault in my setup, or my operation of the thing. I ain’t no fool, I’ve eliminated all those as the problem… and I’ve tried dozens of different things over several weeks now (both last late winter/spring and this year). The problem is NOT ENOUGH AIR CAN GET TO THE COAL BED! HOW FRIGGIN’ HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND!

 

[Wazzu]

I have a Pacific Energy wood burning insert. Would I get another one? Probably not. I now realize that I need something with an ash pan at least. The build up of coals and ash is REALLY annoying. I would say that I on average I loose 1/4 to 1/5 of my firebox to freaking coals that wont burn down. Also, after having this insert for about 4 winters I can honestly say that I don't expect this thing to last 10 years. It is just built to flimsy. If I could do it over I would consider a blaze king with an ash pan or one of the Cunningham wood heaters. The nice thing is that they both have thermostats so when the fire burns down the draft will open up and burn down the coals on its own....

 

[stihly dan]

SPIDEY!!!! don't get made till the end of this post.
1st- NFPA which is national, says no shared chimney. No matter where you live.

2nd- and heart felt. I had an epa stove for last yr only, I had the exact problems you are having. I HATED that stove. It was a Country flame, by American Energy, based out of missouri. I Talked to the reps many times, I was a real pain in the a$$. My draft would be week at 1st, once it got hot, it took off like wild fire, draft unbelievable. The manual said no damper. Speaking with the service rep, he told me to put in a damper, still didn't help, then told me to block off the incoming combustion air inlet by 50%. This worked, but when the fire started dying there wasn't enough air to keep the fire going. In the morning there was so many coals you could not fit any wood in it. If I got up at 2 am and opened the air all the way, and the damper, then unblocked the intake air, the coals would be mostly gone while giving heat. Who the hell wants to do that every night, and close everything again in the morning. NOT me.
My brother has a hearthstone, he puts his wood in, sets the air and walks away for 8 hrs. no issues. My neighbor has 2 Napoleon inserts, he doesn't have to fuss with it for heat, but gets a ton of coals as well.
I am of the belief that it has to do with the quality of engineering of the stoves. I was not going to deal with that for another winter. I spent the spring and summer trying to find a good stove with an automatic air adjuster. I had heard of one that was used in alaska alot, only had to dump ashes once every other week. I couldn't find it of course, cause I was looking for it. I ended up getting the Kumma furnace. Because of the computer controlled primary air. I have to say wood burning has not been easier. Burns the coals down to nothing. I think this unit could heat a garage with no walls.
So long story short, I know what you are going thru. My suggestion would be try another stove, as much as that might hurt. It's just not worth being so stressed and miserable over heat. Good luck, I hope you can get a resolution of some kind.
P.S That stove when you closed the air to its lowest setting, The air wash was totally cosed, but the overfire air was at 30% min. Maybe a reason coals would not burn.

 

[brenndatomu]

I'm starting to think some of ya'lls is yankin spideys chain just for the sake of doin so. otstir:
Anyways, I'm really starting to think it is just your stove. I mean lots of people have stoves that burn fine directly on the bricks, if yours doesn't, maybe it's just a poorly designed firebox. At least as far as the internal airflow goes anyways.
No burner I have ever used would still have warm coals three days later, if yours does, I'm thinkin you are barking up the right tree.
Have you tried fabbing up a makeshift grate at all yet? Maybe some 3/8 rebar and an hour with the welder...? just to try out your theory

So if you waited 3 days to still find warm coals, does that mean you were heating with g-g-g-gas?!?! :msp_scared: :msp_biggrin:

 

[cmsmoke]

brenndatomu, I think you have it all wrong...reverse Spidey and ya'lls!!!

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

No, that isn't how a forge works... a forge brings the air into the coals from underneath, not the front or side. .............

I'm sorry, I was trying to make the point that if air was supplied to the coals, they would burn and supply heat and not just sit there. I realize a forge brings air up from the bottom. If you felt/saw my coal bed when it had the air flowing at it you would think of a forge too. It's HOT!

One solution that has been posted in the past to burn down a bed of coals is to put small pieces of wood on top of them. I feel providing air to the coals gives off more heat than just putting a small pieces of wood on top.

 

[Hedgerow]

My stove is piling up ashes as I type...
Just sayin...
I need something with an ash pan...
Though it is pretty hot in here...
The beagle is panting...

 

[Whitespider]

SPIDEY!!!! don't get made till the end of this post.
1st- NFPA which is national, says no shared chimney. No matter where you live.

Don’t worry… I rarely get mad.
FYI… no locality is required to follow NFPA codes and standards, but they may incorporate them into local “law” if they so choose. Here is a direct quote from the NFPA wet site…

A code is a model, a set of rules that knowledgeable people recommend for others to follow. It is not a law, but can be adopted into law.
A standard tends be a more detailed elaboration, the nuts and bolts of meeting a code.
One way of looking at the differences between codes and standards is that a code tells you what you need to do, and a standards tells you how to do it. A code may say that a building must have a fire-alarm system. The standard will spell out what kind of system and how it must work. The NFPA has few codes; most of its documents are standards.

For the most part, us hillbillies living in old farm houses out here in the county are exempt from newer codes. If the local governments started making every old farmhouse meet the modern codes and standards… well, they’d have to condemn all the old farm houses. Most of us are exempted by various “Grandfather” clauses… this old farm house has had multiple flues entering into the chimney for over 100 years. At one time there was a coal burning furnace in the basement, and a wood fired cook stove on the floor above it… both sharing the same chimney but entering it at different levels. Eventually the coal furnace was converted into an oil fired furnace and a LP water heater was added, but the wood fired cook stove remained… all three sharing the same chimney. The wood fired cook stove was used until the 60’s when it was finally replaced with a LP cook stove and a wood burning heating stove was put in the basement to supplement the horribly inefficient coal converted to oil furnace… now with all four sharing the same chimney. When I moved in I replaced the LP cook stove with electric, replaced the coal converted to oil furnace with LP, and replace the old wood stove in the basement with my own wood stove converted to furnace configuration appliance… still using the single chimney. None of this breaks any local codes because of the “Grandfather” clauses… but if I built a new home it would be much different.

...I'm really starting to think it is just your stove. I mean lots of people have stoves that burn fine directly on the bricks, if yours doesn't, maybe it's just a poorly designed firebox.

Maybe... but several people in this thread have stated they have the same problem, and using different brands of stoves. As well, there was a thread about a week ago titled "Managing Coals", or something like that... and it was also all about this very problem. Mine is a Pacific Energy Spectrum... not a cheap stove by any stretch. I think the problem manifests itself in these EPA stoves when they are used for 24/7 heating... the casual or recreational user probably won't have the problem and that's why some experience it and others don't.

 

[stihly dan]

No, I know several people that burn 24/7 that do not have this issue on EPA stoves. Thats what was making me crazy. I hated going to my brothers watching him have none of the issues that I had.

 

[EXCALIBER]

[ stihly dan I am of the belief that it has to do with the quality of engineering of the stoves. I was not going to deal with that for another winter. I spent the spring and summer trying to find a good stove with an automatic air adjuster. I had heard of one that was used in alaska alot, only had to dump ashes once every other week. I couldn't find it of course, cause I was looking for it.[/QUOTE]
I would venture a guess that the stove used a lot in Alaska was the Blaze King. I know in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and Alaska there are quite a few old and new Blaze Kings up there. You can check on Blaze kings customer feedback and I think there is four or five just in Anchorage.

I think you are right about the quality of stoves being the problem. Like I tell people, find someone who has the stove, or a dealer that burns one. Bring your own wood, play with it a day or two on a weekend. Test drive before you buy, just like you would a truck. If they can't show you why one is better than the rest then don't buy it. After all you can not buy a mule, and expect it to keep up with a thoroughbred horse, or as my shop teacher would say "use the right tool for the right job".

 

[Whitespider]

No, I know several people that burn 24/7 that do not have this issue on EPA stoves.

Well, that blows that theory than.
I will say this... all this week I've cleaned what ashes I could from the stove before the morning fire-up, and it's working "better". I'm getting more consistent and constant heat over a longer portion of the burn cycle, quite a bit less coal build-up, and closer to complete burns overnight... not "complete", but closer to complete. My wife even mentioned how much better it seemed to be burning this week (she loads it during the day when needed). But at the same time, it ain't been that cold so it ain't being reloaded all that often. Still, having to clean out ashes on a daily basis is a huge pain-in-the-azz.
The "instructions" say to leave at least one inch of ash in the bottom... but when I've done that the problem is the worst of all the things I've tried. By keeping it "clean" I've allowed more air to get into/under the fire and coals, which pretty much confirms what I believe the problem is... the fire needs to burn on a grate. I'll likely take the firebrick out of the bottom and install an elevated (about 3 inches) grate, which should give me around a week of burning (depending) before clean-out. Even if the grate reduces capacity some, it won't reduce it as much as 6-9 inches of smoldering coal bed. Changing the way air enters the firebox (drilling, cutting and welding) will be the last resort.

 

[laynes69]

I was reading a few threads on the spectrum. It seems there's more than just primary (airwash) air coming in the front. From what I got, there's air channels below the door. If ash accumulates there, those channels get blocked and it causes burning issues. I would clean and carefully inspect the stove. Worth a check.

 

[Whitespider]

Yeah laynes69, that's the "boost" air I've been talking about in this thread. It's actually a single hole in the square air supply tube (under the door)... that air supply tube also feeds the door "air wash". There is a baffle (basically a piece of angle-iron with holes in it) that sits over this hole in the supply tube, below the door, and re-directs the air towards the fire. There really isn't much air that comes out the "boost"... the hole that feeds it is just slightly larger than pencil diameter. The holes in the angle-iron baffle are about 3-inches above the firebrick, so once the fire collapses into a bed of coals the "boost" air just flows over the top. I've checked all the venting for blockage several times, including the "boost" air... everything is clear and open (I've even blown compressed air through them). According to the "book", this "boost" air is supposed to help with starting the fire (which it does), but has little to do with later combustion.

All the combustion supply air comes in through the pedestal, where the ash drawer is. Inside the pedestal, on the bottom of the firebox, are two openings with adjustable gates. Both gates are adjusted in tandem via a cable running to a lever next to the door. One opening is towards the front and feeds the air supply tube under the door that also runs up both sides of the firebox (the "air wash" and "boost air"). The other opening is in the rear and feeds a tube running up the back of the firebox and into the secondary burn baffle. I have inspected both gates, lubed hinge points, and checked them for proper operation, etc. I've inspected the cable and control mechanism, lubed friction points, and also checked them for proper operation, etc. Everything moves freely, opens fully, closes fully... all tubes and holes are clean and open, including the large hole where air enters the pedestal... nothing is bent or damaged... the firebrick is in good shape, none broken or cracked... everything is as it should be. There is a third opening in the bottom of the firebox, the ash clean-out... it's an opening about 2 inches square with a trap door on it, controlled by a lever at the front of the stove. It also operates correctly and locks tightly into closed position.

I have not made any structural or mechanical changes to the stove... I simply removed the porcelain coated steel trim panels and replaced them with a steel plenum to force the hot air into my existing duct-work. I've even shut down the forced air blower and let convection move the hot air upstairs, thinking maybe I was cooling the stove too much... that made no difference with the coal bed issue (besides, there's an optional blower kit available for it).