What's with this??

[Lumberjack]

Pulling in reverse is fine one manual most trucks with regards to their tranny/gearing. Whats not good is it puts more of a torque load on the front axle, and I have more faith in the rear axle.

Mike, gotta disagree about 1 rope to pull over a backleaner. It depends on the situation, the rope used, the trees structure, and so many other variables that its impossible for that blanket statement to be true.

A vehicle may be able to pull 1.25 times its weight in tractive effort in prime settings. If you have a 4k truck it MAY be able to 5k. It would take many cycles to failure to bust a good 7/8" double braid, even including if the truck was going down an incline so the weight of the truck added to the pull. Plus he said the tree was unclimbable.

I always pre tension with before the backcut with a truck, and my groundies know to never, I repeat NEVER pull before I give the word, be it pulling out the top, or flopping a tree or spar. Doing so more than once will get them fired and they know it. I have told several of them to watch out for each other and PREVENT anyone from pulling too soon.

In the recent past I have had one case where they barely pulled before I gave the signal and it nearly crushed a shop. Communication is vital.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Whenever possible, I try NOT to use a vehicle to pull a tree.

Having said that, I will agree there are times when you can use that extra pull.

 

[treeman82]

Not to get into a pissing contest or anything here, but have you guys ever pulled a tree over with a 10 wheeler before? I did once, it was a 20+" DBH ash tree leaning slightly towards a house. Not a vehicle I would want to use for pulling on a regular basis.

 

[BigUglySquirrel]

Wow! Lot's of comments on this one, and I have to admit...not really what I expected. First off I appreciate you guys taking the time to shed your individual lights on the subject. A lot of small points that I hadn't considered. Thank you! Ekka...I do value your input and advice, but I don't find it appropriate for you to bash people who you don't know. They're all somewhat old school and very cautious...sometimes to a fault I think. BUT I have never witnessed any regrettable mishaps in the time I have been doing this. No downed lines. No smashed property. Their philosophies seem to be err on the side of safety, which isn't so bad...if somewhat counter productive at times. Your remark about "untrained" was WAY off base. No hard feelings I hope, the last thing I want to do is get on the wrong foot with people, but these are fellas I know and respect. Moving along now...

The reason I brought this whole thing up was that I took a crew out a week ago and had several trees on a property that were perfect candidates for N&D. One pine had a very slight lean toward a house on the lot and I decided that the most efficient way was to climb it, removing all the brush up to the point where I set the bull line and then use the truck (1 ton single wheel axle, diesel, 4X4, with waaaaaaaaaaaaaay low gearing and manual tranny) to pull it into the very vacant lot adjoining the lot we were working in. I set the rope high but not so high that the top would break out. I made the notch, pulled a slight bit of tension, made the backcut, slipped a wedge in and once I was satisfied and clear, gave the signal for the groundman to start putting more pull to it. Went off without a hitch. I felt that the outcome was much quicker (and safer) than breakcutting 18" sections down and then muscling them away from the house....let alone dropping the top out. The boss didn't really think that way when he heard about it. He got REALLY nervous. To be honest, it made me feel like I had missed a lesson somewhere. Like I had shaken his faith in me. I'm sure EVERYONE has had that unpleasant feeling at sometime in life. I basically told him that I executed what I felt was the best plan for the scenario and laid out the facts:

1) No loss of life, bodily injury or near miss incident.
2) No property damage.
3) Completed the work in a timely manner while conserving the energy of the workforce.

I felt it was a job well done. He didn't forbid it, but was really shaky about hearing the whole thing when he asked me about it. Any mentors out there care to enlighten me? Did I miss something somewhere? Other than that, what I'm hearing is as long as it's done properly, this IS an accepted technique and I should take advantage of it whenever the situation permits? Was also wondering, do you ever use the truck in lieu of a rope puller or other such device to control the fall of heavy wood (such as chunking down large firewood and using the truck to control it's speed of descent instead of manpower or other mechanical means) Looking forward to hearing more!! thanks!

 

[Lumberjack]

There have been several jobs for me recently that saved several dozen man hours by flopping over climbing.

We call tricky fells "Hail Marrys". So far the customers have been rather impressed with the accuracy of our felling, never complained. Others have loved the rigging that their job required. Basically, we got it covered.

Nothing wrong with pulling over trees with a tank, 18 wheeler, car, stumpgrinder ect when the situation calls for it. It still takes the same amount of force to move a given weight at a given speed a given distance. Some people cant grasp that.

 

[Jim1NZ]

I was taught to pre-tension the line with the truck and THEN make the back cut.

Yea only pre tension the line enough to stop the tree sitting back on the saw, but DONT pull until the back cut is finished or the signal is given.

 

[treeseer]

He didn't forbid it, but was really shaky about hearing the whole thing when he asked me about it. Any mentors out there care to enlighten me? Did I miss something somewhere?

YOu should ask da boss. Sounds to me like he has some stories to share that would be good cautionary tales, about his past experiences with trucks and trees. He may not be eager to share about his own error, so wait until the right time to try and draw this out of him.

I can't believe someone would be so fearful of a method unless they'd seen that method fail.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Theres a guy relatively who in the last 6 months pulled a tree onto his 4wd, and some time back tried to pull over a tree with a 2wd pick up, on grass. It was on a big of a backward lean, Guess what happened? Yeah, one tree and ute going in the wrong direction.

 

[tree mitch]

There was this back leaning tree over a road i dropped once, got a bully to pull it over, missed the road but got bully haha, driver was not too impressed

 

[Ekka]

They're all somewhat old school and very cautious...sometimes to a fault I think.

Your remark about "untrained" was WAY off base. No hard feelings I hope, the last thing I want to do is get on the wrong foot with people, but these are fellas I know and respect.

Hmmm, no hard feelings because I got none. Stick to the facts and logic and don't go getting all emotional and defending your mates. Don't confuse knowing some-one and respecting them as people with them being good tutors and knowing their job. I know a lot of great guys, some have been cutting trees for over 20 years ... and they still do old fashioned dumb chit.

If they were knowledge-able and trained in felling large and hazardous trees, were educated in the physics of mass and motion, understood the safe working loads of equipment, knew the vector factors, knew the MA factors, knew their knots & rigging and knew the behaviour of different types of timber then they wouldn't behave the way they do about assisted pull overs.

So I consider my comment way on base. This is a Commercial Tree Care and Climbing Forum, people here are pro's, some invested immense amounts of time and money into their skills ...so, did you come here to learn something or argue old school?

Even chunking down spars we tip tie, come down a fair way, scarf and back-cut with the mini loader pulling the section off. Machinery is your friend not fear, learn the ropes, the rigging, the forces, the what if's like... what if the rope breaks, what if the section sits on my saw, what if I don't do relief cuts (especially on pines) and cover your bases for those what if's.

You've made the first major step, looking outside, keep looking and learning, no single person knows all ... and most importantly filter the BS out.

 

[tree mitch]

yea! Ekka your on to it bow

 

[Ekka]

Pulling in reverse is fine one manual most trucks with regards to their tranny/gearing. Whats not good is it puts more of a torque load on the front axle, and I have more faith in the rear axle.

Please explain this theory for both 2wd and 4wd? Diagrams would be great.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Pulling in reverse is fine one manual most trucks with regards to their tranny/gearing. Whats not good is it puts more of a torque load on the front axle, and I have more faith in the rear axle.

Sorry to say mate i think thats a crock. In a 4wd, the axles are the same size and strength. It doesn't make any difference whether you tow in reverse if the vehicle is 4wd, as Ekka said you get better visibility and thats about it.

Im sure no one would ever pull a tree over in high range if there was the option of low range. And they would never hook up a 2wd vehicle if it was marginal.

 

[Ekka]

Video

I just buzzed off for a few hours to put this together. I hope you have broadband.

Approx 4.30mins and 7.2meg. If it doesn't play thru due to slow buffering just let it do it's thing then when it's all downloaded into your temp files ... play it again Sam!

click on here to check this out

 

[MasterBlaster]

Easy peasy japanesy!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

That video was painful to watch.

 

[geofore]

The boss has also made the comment that it didn't look very professional and that customers would get the "I could've bought a saw for less than that and did it myself" mentality. Just curious for some input/opinions on both these points. The guys I've worked with all know their stuff, but sometimes I have to wonder if other people are thing the same way. Thanks!!!

When the customer gets the idea he could buy a saw much cheaper and done that himself, he's usually in over his head. Who's going to drive the truck while he's cutting the tree? Where is he going to get a rope long enough to do the pull and not land the tree on the truck? Who's going to loan him the chipper to do the clean up? He fails to realize it's not a one man operation nor should it done without the PPE and training. By the time he figures in all the extras he does not own yet, it does not sound cheaper at all. You need to explain to the customer it's a lot harder than it looks and it takes more than just a chainsaw to do the job. We make it look easy because we know what we are doing and have a crew to help. Having gone in to clean up after homeowners that thought they could/tried to do it themselves and landed a tree on their house or garage; ended up at the hospital with a broken arm, leg or collar bone, I for one don't recomend a homeowner should do removals. If the homeowner doesn't have the equipment and expeirence he should not be out there trying it by himself.
I have put trees on the ground for some and they do the cleanup but at least they had the commonsense to have me get the tree down and buck it up to the point they can handle it. It takes more than just a new chainsaw and the attitude "I can do that myself, cheaper." That attitude + a chainsaw puts the homeowner in line for the "Darwin Award" !

 

[Stumper]

I don't worry too much about DIY folks. I prefer to work for people with the intelligence to hire a professional for things they aren't qualified for or simply don't have time to do. It doesn't bother me for customers to handle clean-up or even do stuff they can reach form the ground(it hurts when they prune improperly-but I provide a little education).

 

[treesr]

My 2 cents

I pretty much agree with what you guys are saying. I will always use my vehicle to pull(because of the speed factor) -standing trees,limbs, and brush, but only in the most straight-forward of cases. Obviously its up to our experience and knowledge to determine each situation- Ground conditions,wind,possible anchor points, high tie-ins, angles (of pull,of lean etc),hazards, weighting, and condition of tree, and many others.
For me the main downfall of the vehicle pull is the lack of feel. I have broken my main bull-lines in the past using 20 t excavator, coz he has no feel of the tension-too much power not enough feel.
If I have any doubt(which is often) then I will turn to my 2 greatest allies in pulling trees -5 tonne lift Tirfors.There aint no tree on heaven or here that cant be pulled with these plus pulleys if need be.In the most critical of situations I use 2. I also always seek a high tie-in plus as straight (90 degree) a pull as possible -gotta watch the anchor points though!! (they're also good for ripping out stumps). They are quite heavy but with that weight comes safety, strength, and power-say no more.Also I get my groundy to call the tension on the machine -50% tension as back-cut starts, up to 90% with heavy bacl-leaners -constantly letting me know the tension makes me feel good about the pull too. It works very well in the MOST critical of situations, and has saved my ass countless times.

 

[pmuscato]

Bore out the entire center? but your leaving a hinge, correct?