Why do Amateurs think they know best???

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No, no, no...the Forester (please note that I capitalized that word) doesn't always park where the fallers park....or five miles down the road either. They've been to college and they're smarter than that. Well, they're supposed to be anyway.

They usually make a point of parking in the turn around for the trucks and then glaring at people who tell them, politely, to move. Or they park on the downhill side of a cold deck that's banked above the road and slick with rain. Or they park directly behind a Cat that's being fueled.

If there's no Cat at the fuel wagon they'll park next to the fuel wagon where they can completely block access. There's some minor genius in that particular maneuver...it's hard to block a fuel wagon with a pickup...but they always do a fine job of it.

They'll also park right in the middle of the road, usually at a bridge approach, while they peer over the bank to make sure those bad old loggers aren't crushing culverts or putting mud in the water. They'll sit there, probably daydreaming about retirement and the day when they don't have to put up with loggers anymore, until whatever vehicle, usually a logging truck and usually in a hurry, comes to a dirt churning, jake roaring halt six inches from their bumper. Then they'll move. Slowly, reluctantly, but they will move.

Please note that most of the above applies to new Foresters. The ones who have been around a while tend not to do things like that. Well, some of them anyway.

A new Forester asked our siderod, after being run out of three or four potential parking spots, just where exactly he could park and be out of the way. The siderod suggested Cleveland.

When I was studying forestry, some students made fun of me because I was logging part time to pay for university. It helped me a lot later: when a logger would say what I was asking was impossible, I could grab his chainsaw and show him it's possible. Helped me get respect when I was 25 and managing 50 years old loggers. At least I knew the job, unlike many other foresters I was working with. I always parked my truck out of the way and never locked it.
Since I hate spending all day in an office, I chose, a few years ago to become part time team manager and part time logging teacher. Good thing is I understand both forester's concerns and logger's concerns...
 
Just how many wedges can you stick in a 10" tree? I think he needed at least 3 more...and then a good push. :msp_rolleyes: Wonder how many times a day he has to dump his boots?
 

Just like with the "inverted/kerf/spike/tigger dutchman", you guys are criticizing without understanding the whole situation. That cylindrical structure just behind the tree happens to be a nuclear warhead tipped ICBM. In the samurai logging tradition, a logger is required to master the wedge for three years before he is ever given a saw. This particular cut is called "death by a thousand wedges," and has been executed perfectly. The face cut is made by sawing "wafer thin" sections of wood until the face appears perfect. Then a shallow, circumferential back cut is made and small wedges are pounded in until all gravity is negated and the tree can simply be pushed over. Remember that recent nuclear disaster in North Carolina? No? Because it never happened! This guy dropped the tree that missed the reactors power supply. Remember the daiishi plant disaster in Japan? The official word was a tsunami, but in actuality, Brad Snelling dropped an 8 inch maple first into his own head, then into the plants backup generator.
Laugh at this guy all you want, but thank him every day you don't see a mushroom cloud.
 
Just like with the "inverted/kerf/spike/tigger dutchman", you guys are criticizing without understanding the whole situation. That cylindrical structure just behind the tree happens to be a nuclear warhead tipped ICBM. In the samurai logging tradition, a logger is required to master the wedge for three years before he is ever given a saw. This particular cut is called "death by a thousand wedges," and has been executed perfectly. The face cut is made by sawing "wafer thin" sections of wood until the face appears perfect. Then a shallow, circumferential back cut is made and small wedges are pounded in until all gravity is negated and the tree can simply be pushed over. Remember that recent nuclear disaster in North Carolina? No? Because it never happened! This guy dropped the tree that missed the reactors power supply. Remember the daiishi plant disaster in Japan? The official word was a tsunami, but in actuality, Brad Snelling dropped an 8 inch maple first into his own head, then into the plants backup generator.
Laugh at this guy all you want, but thank him every day you don't see a mushroom cloud.

Wow, that was excellent
 
Just like with the "inverted/kerf/spike/tigger dutchman", you guys are criticizing without understanding the whole situation. That cylindrical structure just behind the tree happens to be a nuclear warhead tipped ICBM. In the samurai logging tradition, a logger is required to master the wedge for three years before he is ever given a saw. This particular cut is called "death by a thousand wedges," and has been executed perfectly. The face cut is made by sawing "wafer thin" sections of wood until the face appears perfect. Then a shallow, circumferential back cut is made and small wedges are pounded in until all gravity is negated and the tree can simply be pushed over. Remember that recent nuclear disaster in North Carolina? No? Because it never happened! This guy dropped the tree that missed the reactors power supply. Remember the daiishi plant disaster in Japan? The official word was a tsunami, but in actuality, Brad Snelling dropped an 8 inch maple first into his own head, then into the plants backup generator.
Laugh at this guy all you want, but thank him every day you don't see a mushroom cloud.

Can I call you next time I want to stay home from work? My excuses are never this good...
 
Come on, don't be too hard on Scotty. He had a good chain this time. That's definitely progress. And he didn't do creepy squeaks.

Otherwise.... Well, he seems to be happy with his own performance. Happy is good, right?
 
You're right about not yelling. Yelling at people doesn't make them any smarter. Teaching them makes them smarter...but not everyone is teachable.

New people screw up, that's a given, and new Foresters aren't any different. It's a lot more productive to explain to them what they've done wrong and how to correct it than it is to yell at them, intimidate, and eventually alienate them.

But what do you do when the SA is very green, is very defensive about being green, has some personal issues having to do with being thrust into a job they're not prepared for and don't really want, and adopts an attitude of "my way or else" simply because they lack the experience to do it any other way?

Case in point...a new Forester, young, female, just transferred in from some other district, and immediately put in charge of a bug salvage sale that was a miserable money losing monster to begin with before she even got there.
Okay, it wasn't fair to her to put her into that kind of a mess. But she showed up the first day, drove right onto an active landing, parked right in the way, got out of her pickup, and asked to see whoever was in charge. Now. Like right now. She had a copy of the THP in one hand and a clip board in the other. Her boots were new and unscuffed and she had nail polish on. That should have been a clue.

In the meantime the skid Cats were coming in with turns, the delimber deck was plugged because the shovel couldn't swing to deck his logs because the Forester's pickup was in the way, trucks were coming back and starting to bunch up because they couldn't back in because of the Forester's pickup and what had been a fairly routine non eventful day in the woods was rapidly becoming a gigantic non productive time burning, money wasting mess. I looked around and all I saw was idle machinery, wages going out and not a log moving anywhere.

I asked her politely to move her pickup off of the landing and she replied that she wouldn't be there all that long and we "could just take a break or something". That did it. I yelled...I did and I admit it. I really shouldn't have but I did. I told her that if her agency had let us build landings bigger than the average suburban back yard there might be room enough for her to park any place she pleased and not be in the way. But since we were given the minimum amount of room possible to process, deck, and load logs the space her pickup was taking was preventing us from working at all. That being the case she could either give me permission right now to increase the landing size or she could move her pickup out of the way and allow us that small space to continue our work. She got into her pickup and left.

She came back the next day, a copy of the THP in hand as usual, but she parked off the landing a ways. She had an older guy with her, a supervisor of some kind I guess. You could see him pointing at things, machinery, people, skid trails...and as he'd point and talk she'd nod her head. He was telling her a bunch of stuff that he should have told her before he sent her to the woods.

She never did turn into much of a SA but we helped her when we could. She in turn did what she could for us...as long as it was spelled out in the rules or the THP. No variations allowed. We finished the sale and moved on. I heard later that she transferred again and wasn't doing SA work anymore.

I hear ya Bob. Hey sometimes even the good Foresters make mistakes occasionally; still waiting on my parking screw up, but I'll own up to it when it happens. I have to say the folks that park in spots they obviously shouldn't like your Forest Service gal are completely lacking of all sense. They think that degree makes them qualified and they know all. Sadly this is not true. You get the degree to get the job then you learn how to do it properly, at least that's how it's supposed to work. Preferably as an intern, so when you are full time you don't look like an a$$ hat on the landing. They never should have given her keys to the truck until her supervisor had taken her out for quite some time like he did the next day.

Don't feel bad about what you did. Anyone that stupid deserved an earful. I've always been conscience of where to park and as a young guy I can't go out acting like I know it all because I DON'T, I approach the job in a very humble manner but at the same time will not allow myself to be run roughshod over either, unless it's deserved. I figure I can learn tons from the loggers to help me do my job which is to ultimately help them do theirs.

It's people like this that really peeve me off. They lack common sense and use their degree as proof of their ignorance. Get your truck pulled off the road in a spot that doesn't hinder the equipment or the trucks. I hate overt stupidity of any sort but especially this; this stereotype is duly founded no matter how I wish it weren't so.

Sadly I feel it's a lack of common sense. Experience from screw ups helps but really if they had the smarts in the first place it would not be an issue. Maybe I got the experience from working with my dad on the farm. He demanded correctness in all situations. Being his son I was held to a higher standard than mechanics that worked under him before he left the trade. Granted this helped but I also think I possessed some common sense at the same time and feel it has served me well throughout my few years on this old earth.

Sorry for the rant... pet peeve of mine.

Wes
 
They never should have given her keys to the truck until her supervisor had taken her out for quite some time like he did the next day.







Wes

Exactly. She was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but it was just about guaranteed. Sending her out alone was a disservice to her and to the agency she works for. It made for an adversarial relationship right off the bat and that never does anyone any good. Just a bad deal all the way around.

Slowp said it right about the lack of knowledgeable supervision. A lot of the experienced timber people are gone from the agencies, retired or doing something else to hang in 'til retirement. You can't take a green kid, give them a pickup, a copy of the THP, and directions to where the loggers are working, send them out alone, and expect anything much more than that they make it back to the office by quitting time.

A lot of the new government people I see in the woods are very bright, have a tremendous amount of technical knowledge, and they really want to do a good job. I hope that they're given the chance to learn.
 
Was anyone else waiting for a sloping backcut?

No...but I was surprised he didn't use it.

I was counting wedges, though. I'm surprised there was room for the saw when he was backing up that piece of shrubbery.

I don't think I've ever seen anybody beat on wedges that hard and for that long on a piece of wood not much bigger than a Christmas tree. :msp_rolleyes:
 
Guess this might be a bit controversial but.........WHY do some pure amateurs think they know best a know how to fall trees ???? omg I got one today that asked my if I could fall half a dozen pines in his garden.......I said sure no worries I be right over.


Well I got there and he greeted me first with oh they're easy and they'll all go the same way.....I said nothing as being me I kinda like to decide for myself (call me anything but if I'm doing the cutting then I like to judge where they go). So we walked down his garden and first thing was they weren't pine they were fir (no biggy lol but he was not pleased when I told him that) and then I said you been at them? he replied yep I read up and brushed them out ready for you.......Now that may sound cool ...............but wait for it lol........he'd been up a ladder and had taken of branches up to 16 feet all of one side lol (he'd kinda sorta weighted them the wrong way baring in mind (a) he wanted then to go against the weight and (b) the way he weighted then was towards his house which is 25 feet away......(c) two were dead (d) one was right on the side of a creek with a 12 foot drop and was already leaning into the creek.


Maybe I was wrong but I just looked at him and said "hmmmmmmmm well dunno what you been reading but my name is G not merlin the magician" and walked away.



Now guys you may think that an over reaction but I just couldn't see away of doing what he wanted.



Oh bear in mind these firs are around 75' and around 3' dia (ok not that big lol) and 2 of the 6 were dead and I was falling them for free.




Guess what I'm trying to say is PLEASE if folks aren't sure or just think they know cause they read something somewhere or googled it PLEASE don't think you actually know just leave it alone and let someone who has at least some idea do the necessary.


hope this post don't upset

Some people think they know it all and they have'nt got a clue! If they know so much about tree felling then why did they call you in the first place? The situation of a customer telling you how to do your job is not how things are supposed to be. You did the right thing by walking away.
 
Exactly. She was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but it was just about guaranteed. Sending her out alone was a disservice to her and to the agency she works for. It made for an adversarial relationship right off the bat and that never does anyone any good. Just a bad deal all the way around.

Slowp said it right about the lack of knowledgeable supervision. A lot of the experienced timber people are gone from the agencies, retired or doing something else to hang in 'til retirement. You can't take a green kid, give them a pickup, a copy of the THP, and directions to where the loggers are working, send them out alone, and expect anything much more than that they make it back to the office by quitting time.

A lot of the new government people I see in the woods are very bright, have a tremendous amount of technical knowledge, and they really want to do a good job. I hope that they're given the chance to learn.

Yupp I agree, but I still maintain something as simple as parking shouldn't require holding their hand.

Wes

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
Exactly. She was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but it was just about guaranteed. Sending her out alone was a disservice to her and to the agency she works for. It made for an adversarial relationship right off the bat and that never does anyone any good. Just a bad deal all the way around.

Slowp said it right about the lack of knowledgeable supervision. A lot of the experienced timber people are gone from the agencies, retired or doing something else to hang in 'til retirement. You can't take a green kid, give them a pickup, a copy of the THP, and directions to where the loggers are working, send them out alone, and expect anything much more than that they make it back to the office by quitting time.

A lot of the new government people I see in the woods are very bright, have a tremendous amount of technical knowledge, and they really want to do a good job. I hope that they're given the chance to learn.

There seems to be a lack of mentoring these days in every industry. Smart phones, the internet, social networking- the very things that allow for better communication are keeping people distracted from the simple and basic things in life. One logger I used to work for hired a couple of younger guys to fall timber for him. They were logging some pretty small wood and he basically threw these guys out there with very little training. Both ended up getting hurt within the first 30 days with one having a broken leg. Neither stuck with it.
 

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