Wiseco Piston Pics and Comments

[Hddnis]

On the piston with the pins in the wrong location is that because it's ported or is it wrong for a stock jug too?

Can't you move the pin locations? I can see where if you are trying to test it as an out of the box piston you wouldn't want to do that though.


Mr. HE

 

[deezlfan]

Four pages of back and forth regarding the bearings and not one thought of asking the piston manufacturer why it was made that way? Wiseco is made in the USA, is it not? The company has millions of pistons in service, perhaps they have a good reason for the design? A phone call or e-mail may bring the answer we need. Maybe one of the engineers could provide some insight as to the requirements for forged piston construction? Do forged pistons behave in a different manner than cast pistons regarding expansion and heat cycles? Might save a ton of time and broken test pieces vs jury-rigging a bearing when it was not necessary?

It seems to me that the intent was to evaluate the piston and let us know if it was an alternative to OEM. Tossing modifications into the mix without input from the manufacturer doesn't make sense to me. Enough soapboxing. I'll go read some oil threads as penance for my insolance.

 

[blsnelling]

On the piston with the pins in the wrong location is that because it's ported or is it wrong for a stock jug too?

Can't you move the pin locations? I can see where if you are trying to test it as an out of the box piston you wouldn't want to do that though.


Mr. HE

They're simply in the wrong location. The piston was not indexed correctly when the pins where installed.

Four pages of back and forth regarding the bearings and not one thought of asking the piston manufacturer why it was made that way? Wiseco is made in the USA, is it not? The company has millions of pistons in service, perhaps they have a good reason for the design? A phone call or e-mail may bring the answer we need. Maybe one of the engineers could provide some insight as to the requirements for forged piston construction? Do forged pistons behave in a different manner than cast pistons regarding expansion and heat cycles? Might save a ton of time and broken test pieces vs jury-rigging a bearing when it was not necessary?

It seems to me that the intent was to evaluate the piston and let us know if it was an alternative to OEM. Tossing modifications into the mix without input from the manufacturer doesn't make sense to me. Enough soapboxing. I'll go read some oil threads as penance for my insolance.

Kind of hard to get ahold of manufactures on a weekend isn't it?

 

[Terry Syd]

Pin boss

My guess on the extra space on the wrist pin has to do with the construction of forged pistons. The pin bosses go all the way to the top of the piston. If the pin boss was moved in that far the piston would be a heck of a lot heavier.

Of course, they could then mill the sides of the piston down to trim the excess off the outside of the pin boss, but would that leave enough skirt width to seal the ports?

I figure it was a weight saving option that created other issues.

 

[deezlfan]

Kind of hard to get ahold of manufactures on a weekend isn't it?

Yes, it is. But my basic point still holds. My comments were intended as a reasonable contribution to the thread, not to start a pissin' match. I am not prepared to condemn the pistons just yet as I feel there may be a perfectly good reason for it's construction. It just make sense to ask the experts that built the piston to me. I thought my input might make a useful addition to the thread vs writing off the entire affair as a waste of time without considering the facts.

 

[Cliff R]

Brad, the wrist pin bearing offset will be fine in actual use. There is plenty of support left between the parts, the piston will not tilt off center on the pin, plenty of lubrication will make it to the needles, etc.

It just could be better, and something to take up with the manufacturers early in the game.

I just finished assembling a high dollar engine yesterday that used a host of aftemarket parts. Every single part was found to be well within specifications, which is often not the case. We've found plenty of problems with aftermarket parts, most of which are produced offshore, and worked with the supplyiers of these parts to get them up to par and on spec. This process is not a fast one, but the offshore produced engine parts have continued to increase in quality and fit, to a point where they are a very good bargain for the engine builds we use them in.

Since you are working with an American company, I'm sure some direct feedback to Weisco will remedy the problem(s) in short order.....Cliff

 

[blsnelling]

Well, I'd have this 066 together and running if the dealer hadn't forgotten to order my gasket/seal kit. I faxed a list of 20 PNs to them last Monday, looking forward to putting it together when I got home Saturday. Unfortunately, they missed the gasket kit. It should be here tomorrow though.

 

[brad1000s]

The OEM needle bearing is 12x17x13. That means something like a 12x17x17 would work. Anyone know if such a critter exists?

wiseco has a bearing that measures 12x17x14.2 part number is B1015

 

[blsnelling]

wiseco has a bearing that measures 12x17x14.2 part number is B1015

Who would stock those in this part of the country? I'd like to order one.

Here are the PNs on the pistons.

066 - 10919N05400 - 4719J - I threw away the box and the stamping's kind of hard to read. Perhaps the N is an M like the rest of the pistons.

044 - 10918M05000 - 0952C - That's on the box. On the piston, the M looks like a K.

046 - 10920M05200 - 1251K

372 - 10921M05000 - 6946K

 

[blsnelling]

It looks like all of the 044 pistons are defective, so it's back to the manufacturer for a fix. No word on the 066 pin boss situation yet.

 

[wooddog]

Maybe Bailey's needs to know how to order a complete piston kit with the correct supplied wrist pin bearing as Mr. Leeha did when ordering his custom made wiseco 166 pistons. They came from wiseco with longer wrist pin bearing in the kit. Just a thought Sir. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=123864&highlight=dolmar+166+piston

 

[blsnelling]

Maybe Bailey's needs to know how to order a complete piston kit with the correct supplied wrist pin bearing as Mr. Leeha did when ordering his custom made wiseco 166 pistons. They came from wiseco with longer wrist pin bearing in the kit. Just a thought Sir. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=123864&highlight=dolmar+166+piston

There is no mention of the wrist pin bearing anywhere in that thread. No bearing pictured with the piston kit either.

 

[wooddog]

There is no mention of the wrist pin bearing anywhere in that thread. No bearing pictured with the piston kit either.

Someone needs to delete one of the wiseco threads or combine them. Having to post the same thing in two threads is ridiculous. Choose a thread. I'm done double posting. Brad and I have had to double post for what

Sir that is what the PM is there for. You can get all the little details if you just ask Mr. Leeha. Lot of good information being shared in PM's.

 

[Freakingstang]

that sucks about the pin location on the 44 pistons...


As far as weight is concerned, Any forged piston is going to be noticably heavier than a cast or hyperuetectic piston. Has to do with the heavier material and the molecule compositon.

The last set of forged pistons i used in one of my car engine builds were about 300 grams heavier than its cast counterpart. If you want to play, you gotta pay

These pistons are not "marketed" for stock rebuilds....

Wiesco is based out of Cleveland...I've had a couple sets of custom pistons made and they are one of the best piston manufactures I've seen

 

[blsnelling]

Someone needs to delete one of the wiseco threads or combine them. Having to post the same thing in two threads is ridiculous. Choose a thread. I'm done double posting. Brad and I have had to double post for what

Sir that is what the PM is there for. You can get all the little details if you just ask Mr. Leeha. Lot of good information being shared in PM's.

I'm wondering why the doulbe post as well.

Unfortunately, the info in PMs doesn't help the rest of us.

 

[Hddnis]

Someone needs to delete one of the wiseco threads or combine them. Having to post the same thing in two threads is ridiculous. Choose a thread. I'm done double posting. Brad and I have had to double post for what

Sir that is what the PM is there for. You can get all the little details if you just ask Mr. Leeha. Lot of good information being shared in PM's.

Are you naturally this grouchy and superior in your demeanor or do you save it just for us here at AS?



Mr. HE

 

[indiansprings]

Since they are obviouosly only being made for Bailey's, it makes you wonder if Bailey's has the right individual sourcing these internal engine parts for them. First the issues with the import products and now the domestic product, not saying I'm right, but it is possible. It might benefit them to hire a guy with the technical expertise on interal engine components. Enginners speak a different language than mechanics or your typical purchasing agent.
Just saying it could save them alot of time and money,development cost and loss of customer confidence. Just a thought, Brad has done a good job in pointing out the potential issues beyond fit and cosmetics, may save someone a blown or jacked up saw.

 

[blsnelling]

Here's Baileys and Wisecos answer on the 066 bearing question. I'll post another pic in a little while with the rod centered and the bearing to the side. That will demonstrate how little bearing can come out of the rod. The question still remains, why build it that way? I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I like to know those kinds of things.

"We discussed the bearing float vs. wrist pin tower distance prior to production. Our lead engineer questioned this early on and we gave him the feed back of being a "Bottom Guided" crank assembly. When the parts are assembled in the engine the crank keeps the rod in center of the towers, but you will still have a small portion of the bearing that will be exposed. This is acceptable, just not as extreme as the "bench test" picture that was posted on that link suggests. The crank centers the rod to the piston, the pistons remains center in the bore, but yes.. the bearing will slide side to side and have minimal exposure which is acceptable."

Interestingly enough, thats the answer you guys came up with. I suggested putting a note in the kits indicating as such. That would sure save the end user a lot of time, concerns, and questions.

 

[Bowtie]

Here's Baileys and Wisecos answer on the 066 bearing question. I'll post another pic in a little while with the rod centered and the bearing to the side. That will demonstrate how little bearing can come out of the rod. The question still remains, why build it that way? I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I like to know those kinds of things.

"We discussed the bearing float vs. wrist pin tower distance prior to production. Our lead engineer questioned this early on and we gave him the feed back of being a "Bottom Guided" crank assembly. When the parts are assembled in the engine the crank keeps the rod in center of the towers, but you will still have a small portion of the bearing that will be exposed. This is acceptable, just not as extreme as the "bench test" picture that was posted on that link suggests. The crank centers the rod to the piston, the pistons remains center in the bore, but yes.. the bearing will slide side to side and have minimal exposure which is acceptable."

.

That bearing float issue is a definite deal killer for me. I applaud Baileys BIG TIME for the risk and all they are taking trying these kits out, but for that kind of money I expect perfection for a damn chainsaw piston. Im sure that will happen in time.

They can call it acceptable to them (Wiseco), but it is unacceptable to me.

 

[Paul001]

Here's Baileys and Wisecos answer on the 066 bearing question. I'll post another pic in a little while with the rod centered and the bearing to the side. That will demonstrate how little bearing can come out of the rod. The question still remains, why build it that way? I'm sure there's a technical reason, but I like to know those kinds of things.

"We discussed the bearing float vs. wrist pin tower distance prior to production. Our lead engineer questioned this early on and we gave him the feed back of being a "Bottom Guided" crank assembly. When the parts are assembled in the engine the crank keeps the rod in center of the towers, but you will still have a small portion of the bearing that will be exposed. This is acceptable, just not as extreme as the "bench test" picture that was posted on that link suggests. The crank centers the rod to the piston, the pistons remains center in the bore, but yes.. the bearing will slide side to side and have minimal exposure which is acceptable."

Interestingly enough, thats the answer you guys came up with. I suggested putting a note in the kits indicating as such. That would sure save the end user a lot of time, concerns, and questions.

Context would help with the above answer. Who's lead Engineer? Who gave him the feed back of being a "Bottom Guided" crank?

Sounds like it was already spec'ed and ready to go, changes would have cost money and time. Hopefully they didn't swap their time and money for customers time and money.

Seem like a few silly mistakes or forgotten ECN's.