1/3 Diameter Notch Rule

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GOLOGIT .....do what I said , send an e-mail or whatever to Fred Whyte,Steve Meriam at Stihl or Sam at Madsens[post#229] and get their side of the story and then we'll see how that BS meter is working.

Come on old boy.

Willard Holmen

I think your barking up the wrong tree, most guys don't care how many whips you laid waste to. I don't. I'm sure you are a strong man, with a lot of endurance & patience, you'd have to be to cut "timber" with a 16" bar. I'd almost rather limb all day with an axe. That is got to be some repetitive work.
 
A quick summary of this thread

I have always wondered why the manuals tell you to make the felling notch 1/3 the diameter of the tree and not more.
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It is not written in stone and changed as conditions warrant.
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If sarcasm is no longer allowed on AS then Darren might as well shut the site down now.
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No big deal. Wilt Chamberlain slept with 20,000 women.
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Besides...the real cool people in Del Norte live in Gasquet.
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I am sorry but you can fall the typical tree in any direction you want to.
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This thread is like a good day of walleye fishing, find a good hole and you get lots of fight.
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I'm not going to cut it. It's for sitting under and drinking beer.
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I used to be high ball, but I got old and just tonight almost stepped on them in the shower.
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OK things are beginning to make more sense.

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Personally, my life has new meaning other then the price of gas today.
 
Strange thought

Back to the original post question.

An attempt at a logical premises:

1) The old loggers of the huge trees of the West Coast consistently used deep faces as evidenced by the photos from that time.
2) To put one of these undercuts in was substantial work. On the biggest of these trees, using skilled and physically fit teams it could take over a day to do just the face.
3) If anyone on the planet would have reason to use a smaller face it would have been right there and then.
4) Because they didn't use smaller faces, there must have been a good reason for those deep undercuts. Hey, just a thought.

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A) That an individual here on AS could surmise that from what those loggers did, even though they only cut one tree every two days, there might be reasons for Fallers to use a deeper face.
B) That one of those reasons, for a deeper face, might be larger tree diameters.

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Then the most important point here on this or any other thread is that one should avoid locking in to any 'one technique fits all' approach.


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?
 
Verification

A possible way to verify the previous thought would be to look at the difficulties dropping a 'short stubby' presents.

Without being able to show this as simply as in the prior thread, but still attempting anyway, here goes:

A larger diameter short broken off balanced staub can be difficult to fall.
A tree works as a giant lever arm as it starts to and then goes over.
A tree only 25 ft high will have less leverage than a 100 ft tall one.
A balanced tree also will have less leverage than a leaner to start the fall.
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For those that have to drop trees/snags in the 60" diameter 25 foot tall size range, who also have learned techniques that work, and one of those techniques is that a deeper undercut will aid in reducing the difficulty in getting a 'staub' to go over.
I.e.; taking more time to do the face will overall require less wedging and in the end, be easier.
 
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Attempt

Here is a primitive attempt at explaining why the previous posts have merit;

The moving of the fulcrum can make for greater efficiency.

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This does not mean that moving the hinge deeper into a tree is by any means always desirable.
There are many considerations as to why to not do that. Death would be one of them.

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Those considerations also could mean that:
"the most important point here on this or any other thread is that one should avoid locking in to any 'one technique fits all' approach."
 
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Barber Chairs

It is always popular to drag out the old barber chair in most any sort of falling discussion. I certainly wouldn't want to change that.

Two of the reasons that can contribute to a barber chair event are:
1) Too shallow a face,
2) Too deep a face.

Faces too shallow that are accompanied by excessive wedging would be the most common example of #1. Should the fulcrum have been placed in a less than optimum location, beating the snot out of some poor plastic wedges can result. (Think of most any barber chair event as being the result of some force - here wedges but usually it is extreme lean or wind etc. - causing the tree to split and move the fulcrum up from the stump.)

Too deep a face, on say a leaner where the face is in the direction of the lean, could cause the tree to go over early - without the back-cut being placed or in progress - hence a popping noise, ripping and splitting sounds, people running about and so forth.
 
Glad to meet you Ekka, I think all this excitment can be related to the cane cutters in Australia eh. These guys are respected for their production ,am I correct? Nothing worse then a dog###### to mess up their world .

You know I never had to count my trees,recently just did some averaging and came up with a number what I figure I did in my best years. I always paced out the face of my pile before the weekly scaler came and I was always close to the cords I knew I had,we'd sure yell if we didn't get it. We can compare apple and oranges and different culture lingo here all day long but we are not getting anywhere because I believe no one here was ever a real piecework logger, we can't relate........ and like I said everything I posted here is true.

The old timers worked hard cutting cane. Father inlaw used to do it, hard yacka mate.

I just was making fun of how the thread's going, not that I read it all coz frankly, dont need too.

Also why the 1/3 rule?

COZ IN EVERY SITUATION IT WORKS AND YOU WONT LOOK LIKE A DECKHEAD IF IT GOES WRONG.​

It works on forward leaners, back leaners, side leaners, rotten trees, fat trees, thin trees etc etc etc.

It's like a 6 coil prussik on your climbing system, fool proof no matter which way you want to go.

But like everything there's other ideas and ways however like Smokechase's posts have shown ... lots of covering your ass with disclaimers and dont do the 50% here for this reason and dont do that etc.

WELL JUST DO THE 1/3 NOTCH 100% OF THE TIME AND YOU WONT HAVE TO RUN AROUND COVERING YOUR AZZ. :)

That was the simple answer, that is what trained people know, and 17 pages of crap later no-one said it. :laugh:
 
There I put that little smily face up there, my wife warned me its easy to take someone the wrong way writing on the internet.

5:30 AM and I'm on this thread, should be in the shop changing chipper knives and running the 7/32 over those saw teeth. Got customers wondering where I am , trying to juggle my thoughts on how to get one todays customer's big poplar down and not hurt her flowerbed, my 16 mth. twins & 4 yr.old gotta be at daycare in 1 1/2hr ,twins are teething ,kept me & my wife up all night for the last few days. And I can"t find time to answer a simple question on this thread.
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not trying to be the mister know it all ass#### here,I just love to talk about saws and woodcutting just like the rest of you.Just got to get my sense of humor back,from being a 16 yr kid learning to fall trees in northern Manitoba to the dream job of working for Stihl and now running my own tree service I can share alot of life experiences ....oh the twins and my wife are up ,gotta go,trying to make a balance here. Just want to touch base on the deep notch theory ,before the days of the chainsaw, of course a deep notch had to be made ,you would have alot of barberchair if you didn't.
talk later,
 
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Efficiency is still a consideration

New Thesis:
#1) Spending 206 words prior to just touching base on 36 words that claim to eventually explain shallow faces is inefficient.

Old thesis:
#2) Placing the fulcrum for optimum efficiency is important and not just from the standpoint of barber chair risk.

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Don't forget to include the short stubby's in there somewhere, sometime.

In the interest of efficiency I held this to 67 words.
 
New Thesis:
#1) Spending 206 words prior to just touching base on 36 words that claim to eventually explain shallow faces is inefficient.

Old thesis:
#2) Placing the fulcrum for optimum efficiency is important and not just from the standpoint of barber chair risk.

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Don't forget to include the short stubby's in there somewhere, sometime.

In the interest of efficiency I held this to 67 words.

Ok Smokechase, I found a little time here,I shut down work early today to get ready for an early am 2 day road trip tomorrow.I wrote this post here in a way that everyone can understand which to me is efficiency. A bit long but efficient enough so people understand it and I don't have to repeat myself.
I originally posted that I figured I've cut 2 million trees to show I'm not new to tree falling. I know from experience from logging treelength pulpwood and treelength sawlogs roughly how many trees are in a cord, so I averaged from there.
By showing I am not new to logging I had the confident attitude to admit that it took a city guy arborist from Arbormaster Training to teach me some physics of tree falling that I already was doing but didn't understand what exactly made it work ,only through many years of falling experience it worked for me but I never had to think about what I was doing to make it work. Understand? Then he taught some very efficient and safe felling techniques.

Now when I left logging and started a tree service I'm falling trees around wires and houses, new learning curve here. Trees in an urban environment can be leaning in many different directions and are more bushy [more lower limbs]. You can't afford for it to fall side ways here[property damage]. I learned to climb with the split tail &blakes ,am a good footlocker now [50 yrs young]. But alot of times I fell my urban trees if there is room.
Hingewood: the heart & soul of tree felling. Why 1/4 notch, I always use a 90 degree V notch [when the tree with slight forward lean is felled and on the ground the notch is almost closed tight and the hinge in MOST cases is still holding.
When I make the 1st notch cut I hold the saw against the tree and gunsight my saw's TOP COVER'S sight mark to where the tree must fall, then I proceed to cut straight down almost verticle and verticle if I'm cutting into the flare.Now my tree is squared up to where it should fall.I check the area on the side of the trunk where the 2 cuts will meet[apex] making sure there is no weak spots like borer holes, unsound wood and even peel the outer layer of bark to check for healthy lime green colored chlorophyll to see if the sapwood is moist and healthy. I then make the bottom notch cut and look down through the verticle cut to watch for the sawchain so I don't cut through the apex. Now I have a 90 degree V notch at 1/4 diameter. I check the gunsight of the apex with a 2ft carpenter square to see if the tree is aimed right , if not I can adjust the notch and still be no more then 1/3.Yes on the curvature there is more strong sapwood at 1/4 then 1/3. But at 1/8 the narrower notch apex is weaker in side stability then the added sapwood advantage would give . Cut as low to the flare or ground as you can thats where all the strongest fiber and extra width for stability is.Sapwood is much stronger then dorment heartwood ,only exception that I know of from my part of the world is DED waterlogged dead elm[tremendous heartwood strength] or river birch. To prove this idea when you see pulled fibers sticking out of a stump how often is it in the sapwood area? Part of the root flare would be ripped right out of the ground with the sapwood. Another example,when you have 2 codominate stems growing out of 1 stump and there is a tight split between them and you notch both at once and backcut both at once, both stems have side lean,but there is no or very little sapwood in the crack, when the trees start to fall 1 or both will fall sideways [ how many of you have had that happen?] Now you learn to cut above the split and cut each stem individually. Proof again sapwood is important on each corner of the notch.
Another beauty of 1/4 notchs is the extra room in the backcut to make a plunge cut to setup your hingewood thickness [after you make your notch first of course] then cut the backcut back away from the hingewood and not cut right out but leave a small strap of uncutwood at the back of the tree to keep the tree from falling. Now all your cuts are made and the tree is not commited to fall.This is a excellent technique for heavy forward leaners or backleaners or trees too unsafe to fall while standing next to it. You can cut the strap from 16 ft. away with a polesaw and then the tree proceeds to fall over with you in a safe location.If your bar/chain is not long enough to plunge backcut ,it doesn't matter because the plungecuts from both sides don't have to match the fiber will still break allowing the tree to fall over.
Ever have a tree sit back and you can't get the wedge in ,no problem.At the back of the tree make a plungecut a 1/2" below the closed backcut , you can cut right clean through the middle of the notchs apex, then drive your wedge through the plungecut and the 1/2" of wood easily breaks and lifts the tree.

Tapered hingewood: while cutting the backcut leave extra hingewood at the opposite side of the lean on a side leaner but thinner then normal inside the lean side. Keep your backcut and notch apex on the same level of each other, this way you can judge your hingewood thickness better.

Now after all this and the tree still won't go down then place a pull line in the top of the tree with a Bigshot slingshot ,throwline and bag . With a prusik and Masdam rope puller anchored to a nearby tree pull the treeover. I wouldn't recommend this for logging though.LOL.

Willard:greenchainsaw:
 
I'll give you this Willard. You take a licking and keep on ticking, apparently without losing your temper or losing your desire to make your point. I'd have abandoned this thread long ago if I had been called out like you have.

Ian
 
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